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Theme Changer

 Topic: 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question

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  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #30 - July 05, 2014, 05:41 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on July 05, 2014, 04:04 PM
    According to the Quran, adultery is an actual crime. The punishment of which is 100 lashes.


    Ok so you are saying that the man can lash her 100 times upon seeing her in bed with another man.

    Can she do the same if she saw him with another woman?
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #31 - July 05, 2014, 05:48 PM
    If you think only two words destroy the Quran you have not been paying attention to anything anyone has been saying
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #32 - July 05, 2014, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:40 PM
    I think its the opposite. Your understanding is contradictory and in fact already someone here said he has no problem with contradiction since he believes the Quran contradicts itself. I think this can only happen to protect the beat them explanation.

    Whats good about all this is the debate started with the Quran is filled with silliness and sadistic stuff and so on to the debate now about two words. Dharaba and Ma malakat aymanukum. They are not explicit verses. No smoking gun here.

    For a scripture with over 6000 verses for the debate to be confined to two terms I think i can live with that. yes


    Bigmo, you didn't respond to my question?
    I was asking for you to explain how you can reconcile these three portions of the Quran, two of them speaks ecplicitly about unlawful sexual activity but lead to an apparent and irreconcilable contradiction.

    Then you have the verse about men's qawwamah over women, thus giving them the right to hit their wives when they commit nushooz. Since you've been "Quranist for many years", I ask you to explain this. How do you translate Qawwamah, and how do you translate and define nushooz in this case?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #33 - July 05, 2014, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:41 PM
    Ok so you are saying that the man can lash her 100 times upon seeing her in bed with another man.

    Can she do the same if she saw him with another woman?

    No, I'm saying that, according to the Quran, adultery is a crime with an actual specified punishment.

    The punishment would presumably be carried out by some kind of authority. Though, since the Quran is primitive folk wisdom lacking specificity on important shit like this, it doesn't actually explain who carries out the punishment.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #34 - July 05, 2014, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:35 PM
    I have no problem with you saying that God will punish the disbelievers and maybe eternally and that you think that is unacceptable and cruel. The Quran says that.


    Thank you for your honesty, Bigmo.

    So do you agree then that this is a blatant contradiction? Namely that one cannot be both "The most Merciful of those who show Mercy" while at the same time keep people alive for eternity just so they can be horribly tortured over and over again without end? (Or for a very very long time - whichever you prefer)

    One cannot be a cruel torturer and also called very merciful, can they.

    Are you honest enough to admit that?

    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:35 PM
    But to tell me about beating wives and slavery and killing disbelievers than the Quran does not say that and in many cases says the opposite.


    The Quran clearly and unequivocally says that a husband can hit his wife. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Whether it contradicts other parts of the Quran is irrelevant. The fact that you want to close your eyes to what the language actually says doesn't change the fact it says "Hit them"

    As for slavery or killing unbelievers - i have not discussed these issues with you. You must be thinking of someone else.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #35 - July 05, 2014, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 05, 2014, 01:51 AM
    Can you imagine taking bigmo's question to it's extreme logical conclusion?
    "Hmm, I think I'd like an egg sandwich. The wife said her ankles are sore, she might say no and I should make it myself." So, then a beating as "you fear disobedience",


    Yes, I am familiar with that. I think for eggs, though, rather than an egg sandwich.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #36 - July 05, 2014, 07:53 PM
    Quote from: bogart on July 05, 2014, 05:48 PM
    If you think only two words destroy the Quran you have not been paying attention to anything anyone has been saying


    Ooh, I think I can play this game, let me try:

    "Where's evidence?"
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #37 - July 05, 2014, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on July 05, 2014, 06:10 PM
    No, I'm saying that, according to the Quran, adultery is a crime with an actual specified punishment.

    The punishment would presumably be carried out by some kind of authority. Though, since the Quran is primitive folk wisdom lacking specificity on important shit like this, it doesn't actually explain who carries out the punishment.


    So you would agree that for those who say that a man can hit is wife for a mere suspicion will also mean that she can hit her husband for a mere suspicion also since the punishment for adultery can also fall on the man.

    Or is it only with adultery that a man can be punished and not suspicion. And if adultery requires four witness would you say that suspicion should also require four witness or is witnesses only needed for adultery?

    And does the authority required only for adultery and not suspicion and fear? And how exactly can a woman eliminate the suspicion and fear? Can she swear four times also as needed in proving an adultery accusation?

    And why would the Quran require all this process for adultery even if its witnessed and yet not so for suspicion and fear? Do you think the Quran is more concerned about fear and suspicion rather than adultery?

    And why do you think the Quran wants any accuser (other than the spouse) to produce four witness or else he can get lashed 80 lashes? Is the Quran so concerned about providing evidence for adultery but not is concerned about suspicion and fear?

    Is the abandoning them in the bed or avoiding them reasoning is to eliminate that fear and suspicion? And how exactly can a woman eliminate those suspicion and fears?

    Maybe I am just stupid but please help me understand your logic.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #38 - July 05, 2014, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 05, 2014, 06:34 PM
    Thank you for your honesty, Bigmo.

    So do you agree then that this is a blatant contradiction? Namely that one cannot be both "The most Merciful of those who show Mercy" while at the same time keep people alive for eternity just so they can be horribly tortured over and over again without end? (Or for a very very long time - whichever you prefer)

    One cannot be a cruel torturer and also called very merciful, can they.

    Are you honest enough to admit that?

    The Quran clearly and unequivocally says that a husband can hit his wife. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Whether it contradicts other parts of the Quran is irrelevant. The fact that you want to close your eyes to what the language actually says doesn't change the fact it says "Hit them"

    As for slavery or killing unbelievers - i have not discussed these issues with you. You must be thinking of someone else.


    I think the conflict arises depending on how you understand mercy and justice and whether they can reconcile.

    But if there is an after life we will surely know wouldn't we?,  whether the process is cruel or not and whether its fair or not. So I will have to wait and see to make that judgement.

    "The Quran clearly and unequivocally says that a husband can hit his wife. There is absolutely no doubt about it".

    I can not agree with that because if it wanted to be clear and unequivocal we would not be having this argument.

    You were influenced by Sunni Islam I am afraid.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #39 - July 05, 2014, 08:12 PM
    It also depends on your view of Hell and what faces unbelievers. If it is eternal torture than no Allah is not most merciful as I would never place this punishment on anyone.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #40 - July 05, 2014, 08:16 PM
    "It also depends on your view of Hell and what faces unbelievers. If it is eternal torture than no Allah is not most merciful as I would never place this punishment on anyone."

    But why would this torturer give people eternal paradise?

    Would you place such a reward on anyone?
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #41 - July 05, 2014, 08:16 PM
    Quote from: asbie on July 05, 2014, 07:53 PM
    Ooh, I think I can play this game, let me try:

    "Where's evidence?"


    Yes join the game. It is easy, just ignore everyone and everything they say, dismiss it out of hand.



  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #42 - July 05, 2014, 08:18 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 08:16 PM
    "It also depends on your view of Hell and what faces unbelievers. If it is eternal torture than no Allah is not most merciful as I would never place this punishment on anyone."

    But why would this torturer give people eternal paradise?

    Would you place such a reward on anyone?


    There is an alternative, oblivion. You cease to be in the spiritual/soul sense. Honestly this is far more preferable to an eternity of torture.

    You tell me if this in fact your view. I am just pointing out that I can be more merciful than Allah.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #43 - July 05, 2014, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 08:09 PM

    I can not agree with that because if it wanted to be clear and unequivocal we would not be having this argument.


    We are having this discussion because you cannot accept the fact that the word "Daraba" means "to hit" linguistically, and that is what you want us to go after, right? I think that Hassan has proven you wrong, so the only way for you to get away from the fact that "daraba" means hit, linguistically speaking, in this verse, is to go into long-shot metaphorical interpretations and whatnot. And you do not accept "interpretations" of the Quran, right? Smiley

    You do realize that any translation will be an "interpretation", just like me and Jedi have stated in another thread. A word for word translation is impossible, and to truly understand a text and come as near as possible its original meaning, you have to read and interpret it in its historical and social context. Even reading a text in its original language requires interpretation, which is evident in any literary analysis you encounter.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #44 - July 05, 2014, 08:33 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 08:08 PM
    So you would agree that for those who say that a man can hit is wife for a mere suspicion will also mean that she can hit her husband for a mere suspicion also since the punishment for adultery can also fall on the man.

    No, obviously I would not agree with that. It does not follow at all from what I actually typed. It is a mystery to me how you have arrived at such a bizarre conclusion, given what we know about both verses.

    4:34 specifically says only what a husband may do to his wife. The entire verse is about establishing the husband's position of authority and control over his wife. There is nothing in that verse to suggest the same is true for wives.

    24:2 specifically says both man and woman. Moreover, it is not speaking of a domestic environment where a husband can exercise the authority established in 4:34. It is instead speaking of an actual crime and how the wider community must deal with it.

    Do you understand these important differences?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #45 - July 05, 2014, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 08:09 PM
    I think the conflict arises depending on how you understand mercy and justice and whether they can reconcile.

    But if there is an after life we will surely know wouldn't we?,  whether the process is cruel or not and whether its fair or not. So I will have to wait and see to make that judgement.


    I'm sorry Bigmo but you are not being honest with yourself, my friend.

    You know very well that Mercy cannot in anyway be compatible with torture.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXjI2I0_MTQ
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #46 - July 05, 2014, 11:33 PM
    Quote from: bogart on July 05, 2014, 08:16 PM
    Yes join the game. It is easy, just ignore everyone and everything they say, dismiss it out of hand.

    (Clicky for piccy!)




    I was talking about the quran and attempting to refute it in two words. I think it works.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #47 - July 06, 2014, 01:23 AM
    Quote from: suki on July 05, 2014, 04:33 PM
    it all just proves that the quran was hand written by some guy in a desert tent, if it was real revelation from a god then it would never have become outdated..

     yes
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #48 - July 06, 2014, 02:07 AM
    Quote from: three on July 05, 2014, 07:08 PM
    Yes, I am familiar with that. I think for eggs, though, rather than an egg sandwich.

     far away hug
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #49 - July 06, 2014, 03:19 AM
    Quote
    Bigmo

    Is the abandoning them in the bed or avoiding them reasoning is to eliminate that fear and suspicion? And how exactly can a woman eliminate those suspicion and fears?

    Maybe I am just stupid but please help me understand your logic.


    umm nope, abandoning and admonishing are not a solution, they are man sulks that resolve nothing and don't eliminate fear or suspicion but serve only to inflict cruel cold punishment on the woman, usually an innocent women too, these are outdated backwards bully tactics that belong in the past and shouldnt exist in a so called revelation..  anyways not sure why you answer questions with questions perhaps to deflect the fact that you know you are wrong.. Sorry to be so harsh but anything to do with womens rights gets to me..


  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #50 - July 06, 2014, 04:28 AM
    Man sulks. Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #51 - July 06, 2014, 06:22 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on July 05, 2014, 08:26 PM
    We are having this discussion because you cannot accept the fact that the word "Daraba" means "to hit" linguistically, and that is what you want us to go after, right? I think that Hassan has proven you wrong, so the only way for you to get away from the fact that "daraba" means hit, linguistically speaking, in this verse, is to go into long-shot metaphorical interpretations and whatnot. And you do not accept "interpretations" of the Quran, right? Smiley

    You do realize that any translation will be an "interpretation", just like me and Jedi have stated in another thread. A word for word translation is impossible, and to truly understand a text and come as near as possible its original meaning, you have to read and interpret it in its historical and social context. Even reading a text in its original language requires interpretation, which is evident in any literary analysis you encounter.


    I think some here want to believe in a certain interpretation.

    Hasan is relying on the acceptability of the Quran contradicting itself. This is a weak argument since he already admits that his interpretation makes the Quran contradictory. Mind does not.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #52 - July 06, 2014, 06:26 AM
    Quote from: suki on July 06, 2014, 03:19 AM
    umm nope, abandoning and admonishing are not a solution, they are man sulks that resolve nothing and don't eliminate fear or suspicion but serve only to inflict cruel cold punishment on the woman, usually an innocent women too, these are outdated backwards bully tactics that belong in the past and shouldnt exist in a so called revelation..  anyways not sure why you answer questions with questions perhaps to deflect the fact that you know you are wrong.. Sorry to be so harsh but anything to do with womens rights gets to me..





    You are not being harsh but my questions is intended to eliminate laziness in interpreting the Quran.

    The only way to accept how some here interpret that verse is by convincing ourselves that the Quran is completely illogical and contradictory and has no legal foundation to build on. It another says random stuff.

  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #53 - July 06, 2014, 07:11 AM
    Circular reasoning + Digression = Confusion.

    Allahu Akbar, Islam is the one and only true religion.
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #54 - July 06, 2014, 09:08 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on July 06, 2014, 04:28 AM
    Man sulks. Cheesy


    Yeah lol  'man spit the dummy out sulks', and the quran sanctions this kind of behaviour as a means of solving marital problems wacko

  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #55 - July 06, 2014, 09:15 AM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 06:22 AM
    Mind does not.


    Yes bigmo...it is all in your mind.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #56 - July 06, 2014, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 06:22 AM
    I think some here want to believe in a certain interpretation.

    Hasan is relying on the acceptability of the Quran contradicting itself. This is a weak argument since he already admits that his interpretation makes the Quran contradictory. Mind does not.


    You have yet to prove your interpretation is correct. Or have you not been paying attention, again, to anything people have been saying.
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #57 - July 06, 2014, 11:35 AM
    With all respect i haven't seen Bigmo give a quranist interpretation, unless i missed it on another thread ?
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #58 - July 06, 2014, 11:56 AM
    Quote from: suki on July 06, 2014, 11:35 AM
    i haven't seen Bigmo give a quranist interpretation,...........




    well may be bigmo  is busy in the mosque
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • 4:34 To Hit or not to Hit, that is the question
     Reply #59 - July 06, 2014, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: suki on July 06, 2014, 11:35 AM
    With all respect i haven't seen Bigmo give a quranist interpretation, unless i missed it on another thread ?


    Other threads he has.
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