Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective

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OP - July 06, 2014, 01:05 PM

Some people have said that the Quran considers homosexuality a grave sin. And they quote from the Quran verses especially regarding the prophet Lot to prove that point. They say that homosexuality is a punishable sin also.

"29:29] "You sexually approach men, you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say, "Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!"

[27:55] "You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"

[26:165] "Do you approach the males of the worlds?"
[26:166] "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"
[26:167] They said, "If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out."
[26:168] He said, "I am in severe opposition to your acts!"

My response:
In the Quran we are told:

And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying): Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you - they wronged Us not, but they did wrong themselves. 2.57

And remember ye said: "O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions." He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing. 2.61

Here we are told how the Israelites complained about the food and requested God to give them beans and vegetables when they already were given quail and manna. Moses commented on how the Israelites would prefare the veggies and beans over the meat and actually referred to it as inferior. This argument may make sense for most people but not for a vegetarian who would not see meat as a superior food to eat.

So a heterosexual may understand the verses you quoted. But a homosexual would not understand it that way since his attraction are not for females.

The issue with homosexuality is that its a behavior and not a character so it does not tell us anything about a person. Is this homosexual a believer or a non believer? Is he a righteous person or is he dishonest and selfish? Does he speaks truth when he speaks or is he a deceiver? Homosexuality does not tell us anything about a person except his sexual preference. Is he loyal to his male partner or does he commit adultery with other partners and exploits his partners and uses them? These questions shold be looked at when he look at any homosexual and not just look at his sexual preference only.

The Quran is concerned about a person's character and how it affects his behavior and not just his behavior regardless of his charachter. The same could be said about alcohol or smoking cigarettes or using recreational drugs. Too many times Muslims only look at behavior without considering the more important charachter of a person like arrogance, selfishness, misserliness, disloyalty and dishonesty and enviousness etc.

What i tried to point out is that homosexuals are not mainstream and represent a minority of males so sometimes we need to take that into account when we consider the Quran since the Quran sometimes talks to different audiences but generally it speaks to mankind as a whole. The Israelites were being stubborn while the people of Lot were being aggressive and violent and arrogant since they thought that they can rape whomever they want. Whether they were homosexuals or not we do not know. Its unlikely the Israelites were vegetarians but were probably just being stubborn so maybe the people of lot are just being assholes (excuse my language). But I believe both Moses and Lot were speaking as normal human beings would speak about food and sex. But like vegetarians, homosexuality is not mainstream. And how a homsexual would look at a women is very different than how most men would look at them.
So we must take that into mind when we look at the verses of the Quran.

Another issue to consider is the act of rape. The people of Lot were rapist. When the angels came to Lot he was very sure that his people will come after the angels. He tries to persuade them but they gathered outside his house. the people of Lot we are told even used to high jack people from the desert. So it is not accurate as some say that Lot's people were destroyed for their homosexuality. Many nations we are told in the Quran were destroyed with nothing to do with homosexuality. And even if the people raped women it still would have made no difference. Rape is rape.

Homosexuality is a prefernce and a behavior and therefore not an issue concerning salvation. even if we consider it a sin Quranically, and there is no actual explicit proof of that from Quran, it falls under ndividual responsibility.

The Quran only allows us humans to hold people responsible who affect another person's right or burden. Adultery is something the Quran says we can hold humans responsible especially if the spouse brings about a charge. But homosexuality is not something the Quran allows us to hold any human accountable unless the homosexual couples here have an oath and binding agreement between them.
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Reply #1 - July 06, 2014, 01:08 PM

Quranist wriggling is hilarious. But here's the thing. Despite all of the contortions and contortions to rehabilitate this scripture.

We don't need its permission and assent to not persecute gay people! It is irrelevant to morality and ethics. It is not the cornerstone of human ethics and morality. Any rehabilitation effort for it is only for its own sake.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #2 - July 06, 2014, 01:13 PM

What does this mean from a Koranist perspective:

"For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

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Reply #3 - July 06, 2014, 01:16 PM

In other threads, you're complaining that people look at the verses and interpret what they want to see, and this post should be a framed example of such a case.

When I read those verses, it doesn't say anything about rape or adultery in the passages condemning homosexual practices. Thy're just passages condemning homosexual practices.

So I ask you what you've been asking the rest of us: what's wrong with a word-by-word translation? And once we have a word-by-word translation of those verses above, shouldn't we man up and accept what it says? Or is this when we flip sides and say the complete opposite: "I don't believe in a purely linguistic interpretation of the Quran."
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Reply #4 - July 06, 2014, 01:17 PM

Bigmo, the quran is obviously not a clear guide. Nice work allah.

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`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
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Reply #5 - July 06, 2014, 01:24 PM

That salad analogy is hilarious. If you gave me quail to eat, I would vomit. Of course I would prefer something that my stomach could handle, instead.
Why are you referring to homosexuals as male only? Does it matter the gender? Why not include the other genders?
My favorite part is where you say that the Quran talks to different audiences. What a great way to point out that there is no evidence of omnipotence, and also to give yourself endless nuances and excuses on what it says and doesn't say. I imagine that would manifest as ¨Well, this part of the Quran clearly is not for you. It is for some other audience, so it doesn't matter that it says x, y, z, as it does not apply to you.¨ Not a clear message for all people, then.

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Reply #6 - July 06, 2014, 04:20 PM

Quote from: Ishina on July 06, 2014, 01:13 PM
What does this mean from a Koranist perspective:

"For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

It means as I have said what Lot saw exactly as Moses commenting on the Israelite asking for lentils, cucumbers and onions instead of the quail meat God provided them. Moses saw these request are concerning "inferior foods".He could not understand how the Israelie will complain about quail and ask instead for beans and veggies. Most people see meat as a superior food than beans and veggies. In Eastern societies guests are offered a meat slaughter of some sort as a hospitality gesture. Abraham brought a calf for his guests.

But not a vegetarian. He would not see meat as a superior more desired food than beans and veggies.
There is nothing really wrong with lentils and cucumbers and onions, they are in fact highly nutritious foods.

Lot like most men including myself could not understand how any group of people would prefer men over women sexually. This is true of more than 90% of men and maybe more. But a homosexual simply does not find women sexually attractive just like a vegetarian would rather have the beans and veggies instead of the quail meat. Quail meat as we know is an expensive meat and highly prestigious. You usually only find them in restaurants or gourmet stores even today.

I used an analogy in this case.

There is no difference even if we are considering lesbianism. The same logic applies.

Anyways under no circumstances should homosexuals be persecuted. This is the mind set of sectarian Islam which adopted the tribal Arab custom of male chauvinism and collectivism. Minorities are shunned, marginalized and persecuted. Like vegetarians, homosexuals are a minority.
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Reply #7 - July 06, 2014, 04:24 PM

Quote from: lua on July 06, 2014, 01:16 PM
In other threads, you're complaining that people look at the verses and interpret what they want to see, and this post should be a framed example of such a case.

When I read those verses, it doesn't say anything about rape or adultery in the passages condemning homosexual practices. Thy're just passages condemning homosexual practices.

So I ask you what you've been asking the rest of us: what's wrong with a word-by-word translation? And once we have a word-by-word translation of those verses above, shouldn't we man up and accept what it says? Or is this when we flip sides and say the complete opposite: "I don't believe in a purely linguistic interpretation of the Quran."

The people of Lot came to Lot's house not to shake hands but to have group sex with his guests. Lot knew already before that this was going to happen.

77. And when our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved for them; but his arm was straitened for them, and he said, 'This is a troublesome day!'

78. And his people came to him, rushing at him, for before that they used to work evil. He 'Said, 'O my people! here are my daughters, they are purer for you; then, fear God, and do not disgrace me through my guests;- is there not among you one right-thinking man?'

79. They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'

80. He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'

The fact that Lot felt troubled by the guests' arrival tells me the kind of people they were. He knew exactly what will happen. And it did. They were rapist.
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Reply #8 - July 06, 2014, 04:31 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 04:20 PM
It means as I have said what Lot saw exactly as Moses commenting on the Israelite asking for lentils, cucumbers and onions instead of the quail meat God provided them. Moses saw these request are concerning "inferior foods".He could not understand how the Israelie will complain about quail and ask instead for beans and veggies. Most people see meat as a superior food than beans and veggies. In Eastern societies guests are offered a meat slaughter of some sort as a hospitality gesture. Abraham brought a calf for his guests.

But not a vegetarian. He would not see meat as a superior more desired food than beans and veggies.
There is nothing really wrong with lentils and cucumbers and onions, they are in fact highly nutritious foods.

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Reply #9 - July 06, 2014, 04:39 PM

Do you actually believe what you're typing, or is it just the padding you put between your brain and the truth?

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Reply #10 - July 06, 2014, 04:51 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 04:20 PM
It means as I have said what Lot saw exactly as Moses commenting on the Israelite asking for lentils, cucumbers and onions instead of the quail meat God provided them. Moses saw these request are concerning "inferior foods".He could not understand how the Israelie will complain about quail and ask instead for beans and veggies. Most people see meat as a superior food than beans and veggies. In Eastern societies guests are offered a meat slaughter of some sort as a hospitality gesture. Abraham brought a calf for his guests.

But not a vegetarian. He would not see meat as a superior more desired food than beans and veggies.
There is nothing really wrong with lentils and cucumbers and onions, they are in fact highly nutritious foods.

Lot like most men including myself could not understand how any group of people would prefer men over women sexually. This is true of more than 90% of men and maybe more. But a homosexual simply does not find women sexually attractive just like a vegetarian would rather have the beans and veggies instead of the quail meat. Quail meat as we know is an expensive meat and highly prestigious. You usually only find them in restaurants or gourmet stores even today.

I used an analogy in this case.

There is no difference even if we are considering lesbianism. The same logic applies.

Anyways under no circumstances should homosexuals be persecuted. This is the mind set of sectarian Islam which adopted the tribal Arab custom of male chauvinism and collectivism. Minorities are shunned, marginalized and persecuted. Like vegetarians, homosexuals are a minority.

Just what the fuck are you talking about? You are the most deluded Muslim I have ever come across on this forum.

It is clear that of ALL the acts that Lots peoPle were punished for, it was homosexuality that is considered the most abominable. Moses did not critcise the practice, but it was ALLAH that punishes and condemns it and wipes out an entire people.

The QURAN is a book that discriminates and presecribed outrageous punishments. This is not compatible with a MERCIFUL/JUST Allah.

Bigmo + Koran = FAIL.

Enjoy your blueprint for a totalitarian and genocidial state.

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Reply #11 - July 06, 2014, 05:03 PM

Bigmo:

Okay. So Allah spoke to particular audiences at times, and let's say that in order to help them understand something, he used examples that the majority of them would understand. Let's for a second ignore the foolishness of this and assume it to be reasonable on Allah's part. You're claiming that homosexuality is not the issue in question in these verses, the people in these stories just happened to be bad people and also homosexual. Then what is Allah's purpose in mentioning their sexual orientation? How is that relevant to the moral of the story? Why bring it up at all if it had nothing to do with the point of the story? Rape is bad, regardless of sexual orientation, so why not leave it at that?

And how do you explain verses such as:

(7:80-82): "We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

(26:165-166): "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

(4:16): "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."
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Reply #12 - July 06, 2014, 05:44 PM

Bigmo:

Okay. So Allah spoke to particular audiences at times, and let's say that in order to help them understand something, he used examples that the majority of them would understand. Let's for a second ignore the foolishness of this and assume it to be reasonable on Allah's part. You're claiming that homosexuality is not the issue in question in these verses, the people in these stories just happened to be bad people and also homosexual. Then what is Allah's purpose in mentioning their sexual orientation? How is that relevant to the moral of the story? Why bring it up at all if it had nothing to do with the point of the story? Rape is bad, regardless of sexual orientation, so why not leave it at that?

And how do you explain verses such as:

(7:80-82): "We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

(26:165-166): "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

(4:16): "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

(4:16): "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

This verse is concerning adultery since this is the only time the Quran allows us to hold individuals accountable. Homosexuality is not adultery and breaking of an oath and infidelity. It is not an act of betrayal unless there is a marriage like agreement with between homosexual couples and one breaks that agreement and other wants to hold him accountable. Then the process of providing witnesses and etc applies as stated in the verses concerning adultery.

As far as the first two verses, I fully understand why Lot would think like this. It is one thing if a few of his people are homosexuals but from the story in the Quran and Bible it seems that they were either a majority of the community or a large percentage since they behaved like bullies who ran the place.

We know of no time in history of a scenario like that. A community of homosexual rapist who thought they can attack strangers and visitors to the town and gang rape them. So I can understand why Lot commented the way he did. I think we all would have.

Why mention that at all. Probably because of its uniqueness and it concerned a prophet of God.

Whats important is sectarian Islam's view point about homosexuality has nothing to do with the story of Lot in the Quran. Shariah law has not much to do with the Quran.

The hadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad) show that homosexuality was not unknown in Arabia.[19] Given that the Qur'an is vague regarding the punishment of homosexual sodomy, Islamic jurists turned to the collections of the hadith and seerah (accounts of Muhammad's life) to support their argument for Hudud punishment; these are perfectly clear but particularly harsh.[19]

Ibn al-Jawzi[disambiguation needed] records Muhammad as cursing sodomites in several hadith, and recommending the death penalty for both the active and passive partners in same-sex acts.[20]

Sunan al-Tirmidhi, compiling his work two centuries after the death of Muhammad, wrote that Muhammad had prescribed the death penalty for both the active and the passive partner: "Whoever you find committing the sin of the people of Lut (Lot), kill them, both the one who does it and the one to whom it is done."[1] The overall moral or theological principle is that a person who performs such actions (luti) challenges the harmony of God's creation, and is therefore a revolt against God.[16]

Al-Nuwayri in his Nihaya reports that the Prophet is alleged to have said what he feared most for his community were the practices of the people of Lot (although he seems to have expressed the same idea in regard to wine and female seduction).[19]

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

— Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4447 see also Sunan Abu Dawood, 38:4448 Sunan Abu Dawood, 31:4007 Sunan Abu Dawood, 31:4008 Sunan Abu Dawood, 11:2169 Sunan Abu Dawood, 32:4087 Sunan Abu Dawood, 32:4088

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:72:774 see also Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:82:820

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam#The_Hadith_and_Seerah

So its not Quranic. The article said the Quran is vague. Its not vague but it does not allow holding anyone accountable if the issue does not concern any third party like a spouse as the case with adultery is.

For a Quranist, because the Quran allowed people to disbelieve in God if they chose to and said we should respect their choice and that God will deal with them in the after life, a Quranist can easily accept that people are free to practice homosexuality if they want. Because no matter how much a Quranist views homosexuality he knows it can not more sinful than rejecting God and worshiping idols and deities . If God gave humans the right to reject God and worship idols, why should a Quranist concern himself with homosexuality and their right to practice it.

Apostasy law that the sects have makes all the difference since it affects the ceiling of freedom allowed in society. Quran has no apostasy law or blasphemy laws that can be applied by humans. Only God can judge on that.
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Reply #13 - July 06, 2014, 05:47 PM

I don't know how you understand rape to be a homosexual act. This is crazy talk, and has very little to do with sexual orientation, especially when it is used as a political tool or an act of intimidation or torture. This story with Lot doesn't even make much sense, especially when a father offers his own children up for rape.

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Reply #14 - July 06, 2014, 05:55 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 05:44 PM
(4:16): "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."

This verse is concerning adultery since this is the only time the Quran allows us to hold individuals accountable.

So why does 24:2 say something completely different? If 4:16 is referring to adultery, like you say it is, why is there another verse referring to the punishment for adultery that's totally different?

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Reply #15 - July 06, 2014, 06:06 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 05:44 PM
We know of no time in history of a scenario like that. A community of homosexual rapist who thought they can attack strangers and visitors to the town and gang rape them. So I can understand why Lot commented the way he did. I think we all would have.

That's because it never happened you moron. How can anyone who takes myth/fantasy to be real, literal events dare try to construct any sort of social policy around it and then expect to be taken seriously?

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Reply #16 - July 06, 2014, 06:42 PM

Oh, and speak for yourself. I would never do what a man like Lot has done, neither in word nor deed, offering anyone up for rape.

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Reply #17 - July 07, 2014, 03:05 PM

Quote from: three on July 06, 2014, 05:47 PM
I don't know how you understand rape to be a homosexual act. This is crazy talk

Careful three, you're talking truth there. Truth is the enemy of religion.

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`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
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Reply #18 - July 07, 2014, 10:23 PM

Yes, I think we got over that sort of sensationalism a few decades ago.

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Reply #19 - July 10, 2014, 05:25 PM

Quote from: Ishina on July 06, 2014, 05:55 PM
So why does 24:2 say something completely different? If 4:16 is referring to adultery, like you say it is, why is there another verse referring to the punishment for adultery that's totally different?

It is not different. The punishment of adultery requires four witnesses etc so that is probably what happens if no prove is found. Remember the Quran was also talking to a small community not just us.
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Reply #20 - July 10, 2014, 05:28 PM

Quote from: three on July 06, 2014, 05:47 PM
I don't know how you understand rape to be a homosexual act. This is crazy talk, and has very little to do with sexual orientation, especially when it is used as a political tool or an act of intimidation or torture. This story with Lot doesn't even make much sense, especially when a father offers his own children up for rape.

I never said rape is homosexuality. I said just like the crowd around Moses were not necessarily vegetarians but were simply trying to be rebellious or give Moses a hard time for complaining about the quail, the crowd around Lot maybe were not homosexuals but were rapist.
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Reply #21 - July 10, 2014, 08:36 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 10, 2014, 05:25 PM
It is not different. The punishment of adultery requires four witnesses etc so that is probably what happens if no prove is found. Remember the Quran was also talking to a small community not just us.

It's totally different. The verse in sura 24 says the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes. The verse in sura 4 that you're trying to contort into meaning adultery too, says the punishment is confinement to their room until death takes them. How can you say there is no difference between these two punishments?

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Reply #22 - July 12, 2014, 04:27 AM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 06, 2014, 05:44 PM

We know of no time in history of a scenario like that. A community of homosexual rapist who thought they can attack strangers and visitors to the town and gang rape them. So I can understand why Lot commented the way he did. I think we all would have.

You said that, and then this:

[/quote]
Quote from: Bigmo on July 10, 2014, 05:28 PM
I never said rape is homosexuality. I said just like the crowd around Moses were not necessarily vegetarians but were simply trying to be rebellious or give Moses a hard time for complaining about the quail, the crowd around Lot maybe were not homosexuals but were rapist.

You need to read up on your history. This scenario has happened plenty of times, and in fact was made famous when it happened to TE Lawrence. Probably it happens daily, as sickening and unfortunate as that is. Homosexuality, as defined in the English language, is not this. For further readings on definitions of what is and is not homosexuality in Arabia and how such definitions change depending on life stages in the Arab world (one small area of it), please see Unni Wikan's Behind the Veil In Arabia: Women In Oman. It is an eye opener.

For information on rape being used as a political tool or intimidation tactic, please read up on what happens in Evin Prison, Tehran, circa all the goddamned time and publicized heavily during the Green Revolution. Or just ask any refugee, from anywhere.
Disclaimer: Cursing is at Basij, Pasdar, not you.

Putting both things together and claiming it is one and the same is confusing, and only perpetuates the myth among Muslims and Quran readers that homosexuality is deviant and aligned with offensive, violent acts. So. If you want to lay claim to homosexuality being acceptable and permissible in the eyes of Allah, please do not use such terms as "homosexual rapists". That is alarmist and undermines your claim of homosexuality being halal in Islam (would but everyone understand in the centuries prior the true meaning of the Arabic language used in Quran, as I assume you posit).

I personally think the meaning is clear and that Allah, should such a being exist, knew exactly what He was doing when he put that in the Quran and created such a hysteria blaming violence on sexual orientation. I think it was cruel of Him. But gods typically behave so, in every culture there are myths of such devious cruelty by gods that results in the deaths of millions through millenia.

He didn't care enough to be precise. If He be there. I want nothing to do with a god like that.

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Reply #23 - July 12, 2014, 05:09 AM

What's the point of a book that's meant to be a guide, but can be interpreted in any way you want?
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Reply #24 - July 12, 2014, 02:51 PM

Quote from: Ishina on July 10, 2014, 08:36 PM
It's totally different. The verse in sura 24 says the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes. The verse in sura 4 that you're trying to contort into meaning adultery too, says the punishment is confinement to their room until death takes them. How can you say there is no difference between these two punishments?

4.15
Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.
4:16
And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
4:17
The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

It is the same with the adultery verses. Four witnesses.

There is a tendency for some her to make it appear the verses are saying that the women to be confined to their houses until death. That is not what the verse says. It says or until Allah ordains for them another way. But this is when there has been a testimony of four against them. Exactly like the adultery verse.
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Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
Reply #25 - July 12, 2014, 02:55 PM

I'm actually inclined to agree with Bigmo on this. All the anti-homosexual stuff in the qur'an is actually from the perspective of Lot. Lot himself feels outraged by gays shagging each other. When he tells them repeatedly to stop they finally tell him to fuck off or they'll beat him. At this point Lot calls upon allah, and allah destroys them all.

Naturally, you can say that a 'prophet' wouldn't do anything that god didn't sanction, but technically allah doesn't speak out against homosexuality. The clearly anti-gay stuff is in the ahadith.
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Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
Reply #26 - July 12, 2014, 03:03 PM

Quote from: three on July 12, 2014, 04:27 AM
You said that, and then this:

You need to read up on your history. This scenario has happened plenty of times, and in fact was made famous when it happened to TE Lawrence. Probably it happens daily, as sickening and unfortunate as that is. Homosexuality, as defined in the English language, is not this. For further readings on definitions of what is and is not homosexuality in Arabia and how such definitions change depending on life stages in the Arab world (one small area of it), please see Unni Wikan's Behind the Veil In Arabia: Women In Oman. It is an eye opener.

For information on rape being used as a political tool or intimidation tactic, please read up on what happens in Evin Prison, Tehran, circa all the goddamned time and publicized heavily during the Green Revolution. Or just ask any refugee, from anywhere.
Disclaimer: Cursing is at Basij, Pasdar, not you.

Putting both things together and claiming it is one and the same is confusing, and only perpetuates the myth among Muslims and Quran readers that homosexuality is deviant and aligned with offensive, violent acts. So. If you want to lay claim to homosexuality being acceptable and permissible in the eyes of Allah, please do not use such terms as "homosexual rapists". That is alarmist and undermines your claim of homosexuality being halal in Islam (would but everyone understand in the centuries prior the true meaning of the Arabic language used in Quran, as I assume you posit).

I personally think the meaning is clear and that Allah, should such a being exist, knew exactly what He was doing when he put that in the Quran and created such a hysteria blaming violence on sexual orientation. I think it was cruel of Him. But gods typically behave so, in every culture there are myths of such devious cruelty by gods that results in the deaths of millions through millenia.

He didn't care enough to be precise. If He be there. I want nothing to do with a god like that.

I was trying to explain that it was not homosexuality that the people of Lot practiced. It was gand rape. They just did that to men rather than women. Many Muslims are not aware of that because they are told that the people of Lot were condemned and punished because of homosexuality.

If the people of Lot were raping women it would have been the same. Rape is rape. But I used the analogy of Moses to show that a prophetic commentary is after all a human commentary. Moses saw quail meat as superior to lentils and cucumbers and garlic. There is scientific or moral basis for that, but Moses was speaking like all eastern men would speak. After all slaughtering and serving meat of some kind was considered the highest form of hospitality in eastern societies and elsewhere. The Israelite were simply being rebellious and stubborn.

You said why God would leave such things in the Quran. Well the Quran says many things and it is not the Quran that these ideas about persecuting homosexuals comes from. Muslims just think that Shariah law is Quranic. There are hadiths that condemns homosexuality and even calls for capital punishment for them. That is where these ideas comes from. The hadith in question has a similar wording to the Old Testament. So maybe that is where these ideas comes from.

You might find some Quranist who believe homosexuality is a sin, but you would have a hard time finding someone who believes they should be persecuted. These things don't just come up like that, they need a legal basis. That legal basis is found in hadith literature and not Quran.
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Re: Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
Reply #27 - July 12, 2014, 03:26 PM

Quote from: Kodanshi on July 12, 2014, 02:55 PM
I'm actually inclined to agree with Bigmo on this. All the anti-homosexual stuff in the qur'an is actually from the perspective of Lot. Lot himself feels outraged by gays shagging each other. When he tells them repeatedly to stop they finally tell him to fuck off or they'll beat him. At this point Lot calls upon allah, and allah destroys them all.

Naturally, you can say that a 'prophet' wouldn't do anything that god didn't sanction, but technically allah doesn't speak out against homosexuality. The clearly anti-gay stuff is in the ahadith.

1. That's not what Bigmo is saying. He's saying that there is no anti-homosexuality in the Quran, and that any alleged reference to it is in fact a reference to rape or adultery or whatever he's saying it is now.

2. Technically, anything in the Quran is Allah (according to Islam). The Quran is the word of Allah, verbatim. It's contents important enough to be sent through an angel messenger as the perfect, complete, inimitable, final instruction to mankind.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
Reply #28 - July 12, 2014, 03:33 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 12, 2014, 02:51 PM
4.15
Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.
4:16
And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
4:17
The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

It is the same with the adultery verses. Four witnesses.

There is a tendency for some her to make it appear the verses are saying that the women to be confined to their houses until death. That is not what the verse says. It says or until Allah ordains for them another way. But this is when there has been a testimony of four against them. Exactly like the adultery verse.

You're leading away from the point being made. I'm not talking about witnesses. I'm talking about punishment.

You said the verse in sura 4 is about adultery, not homosexuality. That's the point I am contending. Not the number of witnesses, which is irrelevant. It does not matter whether or not both verses say the same amount of witnesses. That's besides the point.

You say both the verse in sura 4 and the verse in sura 24 are both referring to adultery. But both prescribe completely different punishments.

As I see it, you have two options:
1) There is a contradiction in the Quran. There are two different brutal punishments for the same non-crime in different parts of the book.
2) The two verses are not both referring to the same non-crime. One is referring to adultery and one is referring to homosexuality.

Are you following so far?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
Reply #29 - July 12, 2014, 07:29 PM

Quote from: Bigmo on July 12, 2014, 03:03 PM
I was trying to explain that it was not homosexuality that the people of Lot practiced. It was gand rape. They just did that to men rather than women. Many Muslims are not aware of that because they are told that the people of Lot were condemned and punished because of homosexuality.

If the people of Lot were raping women it would have been the same. Rape is rape. But I used the analogy of Moses to show that a prophetic commentary is after all a human commentary. Moses saw quail meat as superior to lentils and cucumbers and garlic. There is scientific or moral basis for that, but Moses was speaking like all eastern men would speak. After all slaughtering and serving meat of some kind was considered the highest form of hospitality in eastern societies and elsewhere. The Israelite were simply being rebellious and stubborn.

You said why God would leave such things in the Quran. Well the Quran says many things and it is not the Quran that these ideas about persecuting homosexuals comes from. Muslims just think that Shariah law is Quranic. There are hadiths that condemns homosexuality and even calls for capital punishment for them. That is where these ideas comes from. The hadith in question has a similar wording to the Old Testament. So maybe that is where these ideas comes from.

You might find some Quranist who believe homosexuality is a sin, but you would have a hard time finding someone who believes they should be persecuted. These things don't just come up like that, they need a legal basis. That legal basis is found in hadith literature and not Quran.

So, if you want to improve your argument, leave out references to ¨homosexual rapists¨.

How easy it would have been for God to just make it clear, that homosexuality is not sinful and should not be ¨punished¨. But He did not. He is an ass like that. He left a whole lot of things open to interpretation, and because he is omnipotent, did it knowing the pain and suffering it would cause. Then He just sat back and watched it all play out. Because that pleases Him.
I cannot follow a personality like that. I run far away from people like that.

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