Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 08:53 AM

New Britain
Yesterday at 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective

 (Read 9339 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #30 - July 12, 2014, 08:06 PM

    Three is correct.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #31 - July 12, 2014, 10:09 PM

    How easy it would have been for God to just make it clear, that homosexuality is not sinful and should not be ¨punished¨. But He did not. He is an ass like that.


    Praise be to Allah! yes

    The same can be said of the supposedly loving Christian god or the supposedly all-powerful Jewish one. I don't know why the Abrahamic gods are such asses like that, deliberately being vague in religious texts yet always quick to dish out punishment.

    Apologetics is just twisting the facts to suit whatever you want. It has no place in making the world a more equal place. Homosexuality used to be illegal in many countries but after lots of pressure from the LGBT community, and with people coming to their senses, enlightened governments stopped legislating people's bedroom activities. The next step is to legalize marriage between adults of whatever sexual orientation. That comes through struggle, dialogue  and common understanding, not by trawling through some ancient book.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #32 - July 12, 2014, 10:49 PM

    So, if you want to improve your argument, leave out references to ¨homosexual rapists¨.

    How easy it would have been for God to just make it clear, that homosexuality is not sinful and should not be ¨punished¨. But He did not. He is an ass like that. He left a whole lot of things open to interpretation, and because he is omnipotent, did it knowing the pain and suffering it would cause. Then He just sat back and watched it all play out. Because that pleases Him.
    I cannot follow a personality like that. I run far away from people like that.


    There are a million reason a human can use to deny God just like there are a million reason a human can use to worship God. Plus I said that these interpretations you talk about are not Quranist who actually follow the Quran. Those who rely on an alternative source are not the Quran's problem.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #33 - July 12, 2014, 10:53 PM

    There are a million reason a human can use to deny God just like there are a million reason a human can use to worship God. Plus I said that these interpretations you talk about are not Quranist who actually follow the Quran. Those who rely on an alternative source are not the Quran's problem.

    BigMo is riot....

     take Quranist and go to Mosques to preach Quran and make every one in mosque  as  Quranist ..

    Big Mo do you want me give the addresses of mosques across the globe??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #34 - July 12, 2014, 10:56 PM

    There are a million reason a human can use to deny God just like there are a million reason a human can use to worship God. Plus I said that these interpretations you talk about are not Quranist who actually follow the Quran. Those who rely on an alternative source are not the Quran's problem.


    Bigmo just admit that you are an ex-Muslim because you truly can't beleive the BS you've been posting these past few days/weeks or however long it is you've been active.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #35 - July 12, 2014, 10:57 PM

    There are a million reason a human can use to deny God just like there are a million reason a human can use to worship God. Plus I said that these interpretations you talk about are not Quranist who actually follow the Quran. Those who rely on an alternative source are not the Quran's problem.

    Don't forget the third option: there are a million reasons why god is a flawed idea.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #36 - July 12, 2014, 11:07 PM

    There are a million reason a human can use to deny God just like there are a million reason a human can use to worship God. Plus I said that these interpretations you talk about are not Quranist who actually follow the Quran. Those who rely on an alternative source are not the Quran's problem.


    Oh. So the Quran does say in it something to the effect of: And don't go around killing people who are different from you. Is that what you claim?

    Because I only found the opposite in it, hatred, discrimination, and condemnation of people who believe differently.

    Where is the "correct" Quran? What volume are you reading? I thought the Tahrike Tarsile was acceptable to y'all.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #37 - July 12, 2014, 11:08 PM

    Don't forget the third option: there are a million reasons why god is a flawed idea.


    I will take that. With sides. Supersize it.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #38 - July 12, 2014, 11:19 PM

    I wonder why God gave us million reasons to disbelieve him.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #39 - July 13, 2014, 11:03 AM

    Oh. So the Quran does say in it something to the effect of: And don't go around killing people who are different from you. Is that what you claim?

    Because I only found the opposite in it, hatred, discrimination, and condemnation of people who believe differently.

    Where is the "correct" Quran? What volume are you reading? I thought the Tahrike Tarsile was acceptable to y'all.


    I am reading this:


    16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .


    6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.


    4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. A nd for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."


    11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?


    17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.


    21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."


    22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."

    24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).


    88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.


    48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.


    36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'


    39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.


    42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....


    64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away , for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.


    67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."


    10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand


    28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.


    109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.


    74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!


    "So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114


    "And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68


    2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing


  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #40 - July 13, 2014, 11:16 AM

    I am reading this:

    The problem is you're only reading that, and not the sentences that come before and after. Where non-Muslims are abused, vilified, ridiculed, shunned, and where it goes into explicit detail as to all the creative and colourful ways non-Muslims will be tortured when they die.

    Such is the nature of salad-bar theists.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #41 - July 13, 2014, 11:25 AM

    Bigmo, most of the verses that you cite are so vague and obscure that they are completely irrelevent to the point you are supposedly trying to make and are an inadequate response to others questions.

    Answer directly rather then use Quranic babble to weasel your way out.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #42 - July 13, 2014, 01:13 PM

    I don't see what all this about believing in fairytales has to do with the subject you raised. You yourself cannot believe in so many of them, that you have discounted centuries of belief. You have rejected the example of the Prophet, and the verses to follow his example, and the entire body of knowledge detailing that example. You have made decisions on belief just as shocking as ours. Your risk is exactly as great. Per Sunnah, you are Murtad, too. You just don't admit to it.
    I think your religion is much like Bahai or Druze. You are shooting off from Islam.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #43 - July 13, 2014, 09:43 PM

    "I don't see what all this about believing in fairytales has to do with the subject you raised. You yourself cannot believe in so many of them, that you have discounted centuries of belief. You have rejected the example of the Prophet, and the verses to follow his example, and the entire body of knowledge detailing that example. You have made decisions on belief just as shocking as ours. Your risk is exactly as great. Per Sunnah, you are Murtad, too. You just don't admit to it.
    I think your religion is much like Bahai or Druze. You are shooting off from Islam."

    Maybe I am just a Quranist following the Quran. The Quran says let people believe in what they want and God will judge them.  So I just believe and follow that.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #44 - July 13, 2014, 09:44 PM

    The problem is you're only reading that, and not the sentences that come before and after. Where non-Muslims are abused, vilified, ridiculed, shunned, and where it goes into explicit detail as to all the creative and colourful ways non-Muslims will be tortured when they die.

    Such is the nature of salad-bar theists.


    And I have said repeatedly that everyone will have their deeds displayed to them on judgement day. If you are good as you claim then you have nothing to worry about.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #45 - July 13, 2014, 10:13 PM

    And I have said repeatedly that everyone will have their deeds displayed to them on judgement day. If you are good as you claim then you have nothing to worry about.

    Why are you talking about things you cannot possibly know as though you're an authority I should pay attention to?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #46 - July 14, 2014, 01:18 PM

    "Why are you talking about things you cannot possibly know as though you're an authority I should pay attention to?"

    I am speaking on the Quran's behalf. I am a Koranist.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #47 - July 14, 2014, 04:09 PM

    I get the feeling that Bigmo does not really agree with the Quran and it is painful to admit. It is not easy to discard something which he has learned to be the ultimate word of Allah.  Only thing for him to do is to perfect his verbal gymnastic skills in the Forum. He has the captive audience.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #48 - July 14, 2014, 04:32 PM

    "I get the feeling that Bigmo does not really agree with the Quran and it is painful to admit. It is not easy to discard something which he has learned to be the ultimate word of Allah.  Only thing for him to do is to perfect his verbal gymnastic skills in the Forum. He has the captive audience. "

    That is simply not true. This thread was about the Quran and homosexuality. I mad a Quranic analysis. If you disagree with that analysis then let me know. Saying things like well why don't other Muslim follow that or when did people follow this kind of Islam etc is not the Quran's business. The prophet Muhammad left the Quran behind him when he left this life. What happened after that is not his or the Quran's fault. Many Christians today claim Jesus is God or the son of God etc. That is not Jesus's business or the Gospel's fault. Many aspects of religion were introduced by mankind for political and social reasons. People should follow the scriptures.




    Ibn Katheer said:

    “The words of Allaah ‘And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both’ mean, those who commit immoral actions, punish them both. Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), Sa’eed ibn Jubayr and others said: By condemning them, shaming them and hitting them with shoes. This was the ruling until Allaah abrogated it and replaced it with whipping and stoning. ‘Ikrimah, ‘Ata, al-Hasan and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Katheer said: This was revealed concerning a man and woman who commit fornication. Al-Saddi said, it was revealed concerning young people before they get married. Mujaahid said:  it was revealed concerning two men if they admit it bluntly; a hint is not sufficient  – as if he was referring to homosexuality. And Allaah knows best.”

    (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/463).

    G – It was narrated that Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Loot.’”

    (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1457; Ibn Maajah, 2563. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 1552).

    H – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… cursed is the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does the action of the people of Loot.”

    (Narrated by Ahmad, 1878. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5891).

    I – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”  Huh?

    (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1456; Abu Dawood, 4462; Ibn Maajah, 2561. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 6589).

    http://islamqa.info/en/10050



    If this is where you take your Islam from well neither me or the Quran can help you.

    I am here to educate that there is a clear difference between the Quran and Shariah Law which is not derived from the Quran.

    The case of homosexuality is one of the proofs of that.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #49 - July 14, 2014, 06:47 PM

    "Why are you talking about things you cannot possibly know as though you're an authority I should pay attention to?"

    I am speaking on the Quran's behalf. I am a Koranist.


    On the Korans behalf?


    What an arrogant **********!

    We can read the Koran for ourselves and understand it better than you!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #50 - July 15, 2014, 12:32 AM

    I think our friend has some delusional tendencies beyond what is normal in a person who adheres to a blind faith in something. It takes all kinds of people to make a world, though. It is hard to be a murtad. It is easier to instead hold a position of supremacy, that one understands the truth, better than and despite of everyone else. You are then the only true believer, not a murtad at all.
    I would have adopted this view, if I could have. But my brain is not wired that way.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #51 - July 15, 2014, 05:06 PM

    "I think our friend has some delusional tendencies beyond what is normal in a person who adheres to a blind faith in something. It takes all kinds of PEOPLE to make a world, though. It is hard to be a murtad. It is easier to instead hold a position of supremacy, that one understands the truth, better than and despite of everyone else. You are then the only true believer, not a murtad at all.
    I would have adopted this view, if I could have. But my brain is not wired that way."

    I am not questioning that its hard to be an ex Muslim in Muslim countries but the law of apostasy established by Sunni/Shia Islam is not really meant to target ex Muslims as much as it was created to target Christianity and those Muslims who have an alternative interpretation. Because Sunni Islam are theocracies to question the official faith and doctrine is to question the authority of the state and its rulers.

    It is not easy being a Quranist at all. We not only have to worry about Sectarian Islam but also many secularists and Christians. We have no allies. While an ex Muslim can have some allies as the case the Neocons and Christian Zionist illustrate. These two forces hate our guts but have no problem aligning themselves with ex Muslims who might have an ax to grind with Islam. Our problem is the we abdicate an alternative Islam that people know is more attractive to the masses hence more dangerous. But this is my own assessment. Chrisians also see us as a threat because most Christians are Trinitarians and the Quran attacked Trinitarianism even though it defended the Gospel. But for most Christians Trinitarianism is more important than the Gospel as the case with Muslims who see the Sunnah as more important than the Quran.

    We have no allies except minorities in Muslim countries who tolerate us because we are more tolerant towards them.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #52 - July 15, 2014, 05:32 PM


    I am not questioning that its hard to be an ex Muslim in Muslim countries but the law of apostasy established by Sunni/Shia Islam is not really meant to target ex Muslims as much as it was created to target Christianity and those Muslims who have an alternative interpretation. ........

     Bigmo you write nonsense., It could be either you are naive or you think readers of your posts are naive..

    go read Ridda wars in Islam.. Start from wiki

    Quote

    and go write in to this CEMB thread at  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6703.0

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #53 - July 15, 2014, 05:40 PM

    igmo you write nonsense., It could be either you are naive or you think readers of your posts are naive..

    go read Ridda wars in Islam.. Start from wiki


    Which is exactly what is said. The people who were targeted in Abu Bakr's wars were Muslism who felt they do not have to pay him anything. They rebelled against the authority of the state, which is what is aid.

    Of course this story is all bullshit. Abu Bakr in reality can not make people pay anything unless its public taxes. This story was needed to establish zakat as a government authority going to the rulers and their cronies.  Zakat is an act of worship and who as the Quran says who is stingy is stingy on himself, and who is generous is generous to himself.

    “It is you who are asked to spend for the cause of Allah, but some of you behave in a niggardly way. Whoever behaves miserly does so against his own soul. Allah is Self-sufficient and you are poor (47:38).”

    .

  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #54 - July 15, 2014, 05:50 PM

    I believe below is the logical premise for homosexuality.. .

                And those who guard their private parts <- ALL human beings have private parts, including homosexual
                Except from their wives <- referring to marriages
                (70:29-31)


    Premise 1 : The Qur'an says men must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives
    Premise 2 : Gays are men and have "private parts"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Therefore (rule): Gays must guard their "private parts" except from their spouses/wives
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IF THEN ELSE.

          IF gays are men
          THEN gays must guard their private parts except from their spouses/wives
          ELSE show an ayat that Allah sets them free from this obligation


    Punishment by the State (not individual):

    Guilty for "what they did", not for "who they are". . . ie. I believe it is the offence of unlawful sexual intercourse.

                    Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse (4.15) (ie. transgressors)

    This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if someone is so and so influential person or celebrities. Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "unlawful sexual intercourse", sura (4:15-16) says punish them, and sura (24:1-2) says what is their punishment.

                    found guilty of sexual intercourse
                    lash each one of them with a hundred lashes
                    24.2

    However, I believe rule is lenient with homosexual, provided they reform and restrain themselves.

           If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful. (4.16)

    It is only my opinion.

  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #55 - July 15, 2014, 05:59 PM

    Which is exactly what is said.

    .. wait ..wait what you said was this
    Quote
    ... but the law of apostasy established by Sunni/Shia Islam is not really meant to target ex Muslims as much as it was created to target Christianity and those Muslims who have an alternative interpretation. ........


    "it was created to target Christianity and those Muslims who have an alternative interpretation" ...  and that is different from Ridda wars..  Ridda wars were against apostates..

    Quote
    The people who were targeted in Abu Bakr's wars were Muslism who felt they do not have to pay him anything. They rebelled against the authority of the state, which is what is aid.

    That is what you are ASSUMING.. those guys left Islam because of stupid rules that were imposed on them due to Quran/hadith/sharia whatever..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #56 - July 15, 2014, 06:39 PM

    "it was created to target Christianity and those Muslims who have an alternative interpretation" ...  and that is different from Ridda wars..  Ridda wars were against apostates.. "

    I don't know why you feel the need to oppose anything I say almost out of habit.

    Sunni sources themselves say the other companions were against this war because they felt that the people who refused to pay zakat were still Muslims and did not apostate.

    Of course as a Quranist i know what this is all leading to. The ruler can enforce zakat but also he does not have to enforce it, absolute authority. The problem with you is you see these stories as biographical accounts and not legal traditions trying to establish the legal basis for an absolute theocracy where the ruler can impose zakat and force people to pay for it (citing Abu Bakr) but also may not have to do so ( citing the companions who differed).

    Lets say they did apostate outright and refused to pay a penny. The Quran says that is their business. Plus zakat can not go to a ruler anyways unless a person wants that. Its made for the poor and needy. Its the same with jizya which came in the Quran concerning the Meccans who forced the believers into exile and confiscated their properties and home. The Islamic authorities made that a tax by non Muslims to the ruler.

    Read my opening post in the thread Koranic Law versus Sharia law. I talked about both, the so called rida wars and the jizya tax and how they violate the Quranic commands concerning these two issues.

    Quranic law and Shariah law differ considerably. One was set up to prepare people for the here after while the other was designed to establish an absolute theocracy ruled by a dictator.

    As per the Quran, a person can chose to believe in God or not, can chose to pray to God or pray to idols, he can help the poor or not. He can fast or not. There is no authority the Quran affords humans to interfere. That is what the here after is for. In sectarian Islam the state has the authority.

    Once again read my opening post in Koranic law versus shariah law where I clearly explained the major differences.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #57 - July 17, 2014, 10:51 AM

    I don't understand how you can treat the Qur'an as an isolated text without looking at the rest of Islamic history. Muslim jurisprudence is based on the Qur'an, hadith and whatever else happened before the gates of ijtihad were closed and padlocked shut. Most Muslims would consider throwing everything else out and keeping only the text of the Qur'an to be heretical, at which point you're very much welcome here Wink

    That's assuming the Qur'an is a divine text sent down from Allah, through Jibril to Muhammad, with no alterations at all before it was committed down to paper. Recent studies looking at the text, language and historical context surrounding the Qur'an suggests a far more murky story - the person or persons who compiled it was familiar with different languages in the region, was exposed to other religious doctrines and possibly made some mistakes when translating them to the context of 8th century Arabia. Muhammad may not even exist as a single historical person, he may have been a combination of different people and ideas through a span of time.

    That's like following a badly written textbook as a guide to the hereafter, assuming there is one in the first place.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #58 - July 18, 2014, 12:10 AM

    "I think our friend has some delusional tendencies beyond what is normal in a person who adheres to a blind faith in something. It takes all kinds of PEOPLE to make a world, though. It is hard to be a murtad. It is easier to instead hold a position of supremacy, that one understands the truth, better than and despite of everyone else. You are then the only true believer, not a murtad at all.
    I would have adopted this view, if I could have. But my brain is not wired that way."

    I am not questioning that its hard to be an ex Muslim in Muslim countries but the law of apostasy established by Sunni/Shia Islam is not really meant to target ex Muslims as much as it was created to target Christianity and those Muslims who have an alternative interpretation. Because Sunni Islam are theocracies to question the official faith and doctrine is to question the authority of the state and its rulers.

    It is not easy being a Quranist at all. We not only have to worry about Sectarian Islam but also many secularists and Christians. We have no allies. While an ex Muslim can have some allies as the case the Neocons and Christian Zionist illustrate. These two forces hate our guts but have no problem aligning themselves with ex Muslims who might have an ax to grind with Islam. Our problem is the we abdicate an alternative Islam that people know is more attractive to the masses hence more dangerous. But this is my own assessment. Chrisians also see us as a threat because most Christians are Trinitarians and the Quran attacked Trinitarianism even though it defended the Gospel. But for most Christians Trinitarianism is more important than the Gospel as the case with Muslims who see the Sunnah as more important than the Quran.

    We have no allies except minorities in Muslim countries who tolerate us because we are more tolerant towards them.


    I think you are making all this up as you go along.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koran and homosexuality - from a Koranist perspective
     Reply #59 - July 18, 2014, 04:04 AM

    Quote from: ”Bigmo”
    It is not easy being a Quranist at all. We not only have to worry about Sectarian Islam but also many secularists and Christians. We have no allies. While an ex Muslim can have some allies as the case the Neocons and Christian Zionist illustrate. These two forces hate our guts but have no problem aligning themselves with ex Muslims who might have an ax to grind with Islam. Our problem is the we abdicate an alternative Islam that people know is more attractive to the masses hence more dangerous. But this is my own assessment. Chrisians also see us as a threat because most Christians are Trinitarians and the Quran attacked Trinitarianism even though it defended the Gospel. But for most Christians Trinitarianism is more important than the Gospel as the case with Muslims who see the Sunnah as more important than the Quran.


    This is the most ridiculous statement you have made Mr. Bigmo. Secularists, Jews and Christians or ex-Muslims, do not give a damn if you are a Koranist or anti-Trinitarian or whatever.  Stop flattering yourself.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »