Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 08:53 AM

New Britain
Yesterday at 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: allah and the universe

 (Read 2586 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • allah and the universe
     OP - July 06, 2014, 11:55 PM

    One thing that I've always had at the back of my mind is if allah exists, then how exactly does he control the universe?  For the universe seems to operate on its own, through the laws of cause and effect, and by virtue of the inherent qualities of objects and their respective natural laws which govern them...

    One possible answer that I put forth to this dilemma is that natural laws are only mere manifestations of allah governing the universe.  So, for example, me putting a glass of water on a table, the table would not be holding up the glass of water by itself, rather it would only be through the will of allah and the table obeying the command of allah that would be enabling the glass of water to stand successfully on the table.  It wouldn't be the result of the simple fact that the table is a solid and sturdy surface.  Another example would be that of my own shadow.  My own shadow follows me because allah has commanded it to do so.  It is not because of the simple fact that it is merely an outline of my own figure that forms a dark outline of me because I am blocking out the light to that area.

    I have been struggling with these questions, and it's because I've been brainwashed by this religion.  Can somebody please offer rebuttals to my arguments above? 
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #1 - July 07, 2014, 12:09 AM

    ........... allah ........

    ..............will of allah .
    ......... the table obeying the command of allah ....
    ....  My own shadow follows me because allah.............

    ............. Can somebody please offer rebuttals to my arguments above? ......

    Radon123  you appears to be so smart .. well educated yet you are asking such questions. That is troubling me. Off course please don't hesitate to ask such questions.  But we can also ask similar questions such as

    Could this Pooping &  pissing  in the toilet every day ., is this also will of allah...

    Is this allah(or even god of other religions)  of your questions same thing as that is described in this 1000 year old books written by some brainless cave men(That is w.r.t today's intelligent students of college)?

    Well so many questions to answer dear Radon123

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #2 - July 07, 2014, 12:19 AM

    Thank you very much for your reply, yeezevee.  I greatly appreciate it.

    I thought your response was very funny!  It made me laugh!  You are very funny!  You have a good sense of humor!

    But I also understood the serious aspects of your response as well.

    I could respond back to your question about defecation and urination coming from allah by stating that yes, that those functions are the will of allah as well.

    I am sorry for asking these questions, the problem is that I was radicalized online.  I was never a terrorist/jihadist and I had no intention to ever hurt anybody and/or cause destruction, but at a point in my life I was what you could call a radical islamist.  I think that when a person is radicalized, their critical thinking is suspended, and this leads to them having lots of difficulty with respect to their ability to reason with logic.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #3 - July 07, 2014, 12:21 AM

    Laws are not laws but explanations of what we observe. These laws are not even applied to all of the universe but are assumed. Also cosmological theories take the position that these laws break down at the point of the big bang. Cause and effect only applies to objects within our universe. There is no connection forcing this cause and effect on the universe as a whole, fallacy of composition. Also I would ask how does God create the universe without time? Time is the observation and tracking of change. For the creation of the universe this is a change. Without time this can not happen, everything is static.. As an observer we would only observe two entities, the universe and God. We can not observe which came first, which cause which. One could take the position that the universe created God or vice-versa. None of which proves anything but our inability to observe this interaction as we do not follow these laws which allows us to observe change.

    Once you start applying the "laws" of physic to God and creation, God become the most power entity but not an all powerful entity. An entity which is subject to these laws, not the creator of these laws .You must violate these laws in order to avoid this issue. However when doing so you push God into an incoherent definition. Also you push God into non-existence as the standard of existence we use does not apply to God.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #4 - July 07, 2014, 12:36 AM

    ..............
    I am sorry for asking these questions,

    No ..no..nooo  please don't be sorry Radon123 ., you have every right to ask questions that is exactly the purpose of this board..
    Quote
    the problem is that I was radicalized online.  I was never a terrorist/jihadist and I had no intention to ever hurt anybody and/or cause destruction, but at a point in my life I was what you could call a radical islamist. 

    Now I am in trouble and I have to learn something from you dear Radon123., This radicalization business on internet., Is that because you are reading Quran and and are in some Islamic forum or external factors such as Problems Muslim facing all over the world  due to wars and political instabilities?

    I tell you this,  As long as YOU COULD USE SIMPLE  "GOLDEN RULE"  in your life., it is ok to be a  radical islamist and defend Islam and Islamic scriptures.
    Quote
    I think that when a person is radicalized, their critical thinking is suspended, and this leads to them having lots of difficulty with respect to their ability to reason with logic.

    You are absolutely correct ., not only radicalized person but a person in anger also looses  their abilities  critical thinking.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #5 - July 07, 2014, 12:38 AM

    bogart,

    What if I were to say that allah is capable of all things, though?  For example, what if I were to say that allah simply chooses for there to exist a chemical reaction every time baking soda meets with vinegar, and at each time allah is capable of not allowing/choosing for there to exist a chemical reaction between baking soda and vinegar?

    What if I were to say that allah is capable of violating the laws that he sets up?  And if I push god/allah into an incoherent definition, then isn't this then also the definition of god/allah favored by islam?  According to islam, allah is nothing like his creation.  That means that nothing that pertains to the creation can apply to him, accordingly.  So if allah wants to violate the laws of his creation, then he is free to do so.  His hands are not bound, says the quran.  Allah is above and beyond space and time, free from the laws of his creation, and free from the laws of logic.  God/allah can do whatever he pleases.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #6 - July 07, 2014, 12:48 AM

    You examples do nothing to resolve the issue. Without a form of time there is no change, everything is static, unchanging. In order to even have a thought there must be time. To act on a thought there must be time as well. As I said if you remove all our standards of existences all you have done is define god as non-existent thereby providing an argument which proves my case not yours. Also the definition of God become incoherent and thus can be dismissed as nonsensical babble.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #7 - July 07, 2014, 01:11 AM

    As Hume put it, "If we take in our hands any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matters of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames, for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."

  • allah and the universe
     Reply #8 - July 07, 2014, 01:12 AM

    yeezevee,

    I became radicalized because of online religious/Islamic material, and a lot also due to the fact that I wanted all Islamic countries to unite under one , banner of the caliphate so that Israel would be defeated and the USA would be driven from all Islamic lands and be humiliated.  I was furious with gays and Jews all of the time.  I hated gays because they were defying Islam, and the possibility of them being correct that their sexual orientation might be inherent to their biology.  And I hated Jews because, in my view, of their audacity in thinking that they have a right to establish a state in the heartland of Islam and for thinking that they can challenge Islam and to add insult to injury, win and defeat Islamic armies.  I was also very hateful and jealous towards the Jews because they have managed to create such an advanced country with their false religion, Judaism, while the true religion, Islam and the Muslims, was lagging behind severely.  Also, I always just had these thoughts that Islam was under siege, and that I had to do something about it.  I never had anything planned, and I never wanted to hurt anybody, but I thought that if I thought about it enough and prayed to allah enough times with sincere faith and devotion, then my dreams and fantasies about Israel and the Jews being defeated and the whole word becoming Muslim or having Islam dominate everywhere and the caliphate coming into existence would come true.

    It is a very long story and I could keep going on about it, but it was a very dark time for me and right now I am just trying to come back to how I was before Islam, as an Atheist where I could think logically and with reason.  

    The reason why I converted to Islam a few years ago was because I was extremely depressed and I was looking for a meaning in my life.  I did not predict what a disaster it would be for myself, I should have listened to my common sense and reason...

    I listened a lot to a man named BIlal Philips, together with Abdur Raheem Green, Yusuf Estes, and the Deen Show.  I would read books by Dr. Laurence Brown, Bilal Philips, etc.  The books came in a package that I had ordered for free from Saudi Arabia, via a website called islamreligion.com, which is in turn run by the office of Dawah in Rawdah, Saudi Arabia.  I talked a lot to the people on the live chat there, asking them my questions, and I frequently read articles on that website as well.  I had no idea that these were articles by Islamic apologists.  I also went a lot on a website called islamqa.com or .org, I'm not sure which.  I really believed in things like the minor signs of the Last Day, Judgement Day, Hellfire, Paradise, etc.  I still do believe in them to an extent, and that's what I'm trying to get rid of right now, all of the brainwashing I have been exposed to...
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #9 - July 07, 2014, 01:15 AM

    bogart,

    But what if Allah is beyond time?  According to Islam, Allah is above his creation, so the rules don't apply to him, because he is the boss, so to speak.  In that view, time is just another creation of Allah, subject in turn to Allah's will.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #10 - July 07, 2014, 01:18 AM

    Allah is then a static entity capable of no thought, no action, nothing without time. Thus Allah is incapable of creation let alone of even a thought of creation.

  • allah and the universe
     Reply #11 - July 07, 2014, 01:28 AM

    But what if the concept of time doesn't apply to Allah?  Isn't Allah supposed to be beyond his creation?  Isn't Allah supposed to be all powerful, so that he can freely operate without the confines of time?  I do not see how time could apply to the supernatural realm, assuming that it exists. 
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #12 - July 07, 2014, 01:37 AM

    How can Allah create time without time. If there was "no-time" then Allah was not capable of changing anything even it/him/herself. Until you or anyone provides even a concept of change without time I can dismiss any such claim as nonsense. Claiming the supernatural is basically knocking over the chessboard and claim victory without having moved a single piece. I refuse to play by the rules but you must accept that I won the game.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #13 - July 07, 2014, 01:40 AM

    Keep in mind this is why religious belief is called faith not evidence, logical or based on reason. Faith is unable to prove it's beliefs thus provides no justification for accepting belief as a truth claim. It is unjustified belief which can be reject on this basis alone, it is unjustified.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #14 - July 07, 2014, 01:42 AM

    okay, I suppose that your answer at least makes a little sense to me.  But what if I was to say that Allah can do it, because he's Allah?  Furthermore, Allah is supernatural, so wouldn't he hypothetically just be able to create time out of thin air.  After all, he is Allah.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #15 - July 07, 2014, 01:43 AM

    Here is one example http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16329.0

    In the search box try searching for Quran challenge, or Sura like it. You will find many examples. I am sure other members could provide examples as well. As I already stated it is an argument from incredibility so there is no need, in my mind, for entertaining such a challenge as valid.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #16 - July 07, 2014, 01:47 AM

    okay, I suppose that your answer at least makes a little sense to me.  But what if I was to say that Allah can do it, because he's Allah?  Furthermore, Allah is supernatural, so wouldn't he hypothetically just be able to create time out of thin air.  After all, he is Allah.


    Thing is that would be a jump from doing nothing to making a universe; a passing of events. A passing of events is time.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #17 - July 07, 2014, 01:47 AM

    okay, I suppose that your answer at least makes a little sense to me.  But what if I was to say that Allah can do it, because he's Allah?  Furthermore, Allah is supernatural, so wouldn't he hypothetically just be able to create time out of thin air.  After all, he is Allah.


    If I were to claim that my version of God is true and provided the same arguments as you would you accept and convert to Bogartism? Although I am sure the anti-bogartist Quod would object to the divine nature that is me   dance

    Again supernatural is just magical thinking which refuses to play by the rules we have for inquiry and can be dismissed as nonsense.
  • allah and the universe
     Reply #18 - July 07, 2014, 01:52 AM

    A lot of things are hypothetical, however the term itself conjecture not well supported by evidence. I could propose a number of hypothetical scenarios. What if hypothetical the universe were to stop expanding and condense back into the pre-big bang singularity. I have no evidence backing my statements so one can accept it, dismiss it or take a null position neither for nor against. I have not proved my hypothetical scenario, it is just hypothetical.
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »