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Theme Changer

 Topic: Asymmetric outrage.

 (Read 3456 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     OP - July 15, 2014, 06:20 AM

    Newsflash: Members of the Ummah are busy being Facebook activists for the Palestine/Israel conflict.
    Meanwhile, ISIS are running rampant in Mosul, removing crosses from Churches.

    Basically, what Maajid Nawaz said: https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/487197662455005184

    Your thoughts?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #1 - July 15, 2014, 06:39 AM

    Because it is seen as less of a problem when Muslims are perpetrators and other Muslims/non-Muslims are victims. Palestine has a "special place" in the hearts of all Muslims because of its "holiness", and the perpetrators are Jews to top it off. I mean, JEWS! And don't forget that a lot of what ISIS is doing is in accordance with Islamic law and Islamic/Muslim history. A lot of Muslims probably are aware of this, and some are perhaps even more than supportive. Others just go into denial-mode so that they don't have to deal with something that makes them uncomfortable for whatever reason like confronting actual Islamic ideas and values or challenging the delusional idea that "kuffar/the West are agains us!" and the whole discourse surrounding it.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #2 - July 15, 2014, 06:44 AM

    To be fair, at least Iraq has armed forces. Palestine has nothing. They are literally a bunch of helpless people living in an area which no major world leader gives a rat's ass about. This is true sadness. Like cornflower said, they are also muslim, so obviously they will pay more attention to this conflict. Or perhaps more importantly, the enemy is non-muslim.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #3 - July 16, 2014, 06:17 AM

    There are also plenty of Palestinian Christians. The PFLP is a nationalist, secularist, occasionally terrorist organization founded by a Christian.

    It's sad that any debate about Palestine gets distilled to a Muslim vs. Jew/kuffar confrontation. The real issue is that an entire people were driven out of their homes to create a religious state i.e. Israel and the Palestinians are now stuck in bantustans with no meaningful chance at development.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #4 - July 16, 2014, 06:51 AM

    Agree with CF 100%. I'd say the fact that ISIS is a terrorist group condemned by the mainstream, while Israel is an actual country that enjoys support from the U.S. also has a lot to do with it. Eg: there are a lot more people online who'll argue that "Israel has a right to defend itself" than there are folks who'd argue "killing Christians and Shi'as is totally legit". 
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #5 - July 16, 2014, 07:03 AM

    Shaytanshoes, I totally agree that it's unfortunate that non-Muslim Palestinians are forgotten. But that's because Muslims make this to be about religion only, the old "kuffar will never be satisfied with you until you follow their path" and "Jews are enemies of allah, they earned his wrath", and other bs that goes with that doctrine and belief. For exampe, I doubt agno's mom even spends a minute thinking about the non-Muslim Palestinians even though they suffer the same just as any Muslim around them.


    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #6 - July 16, 2014, 10:32 AM

    To me, the Israel-Palestine issue can only be resolved once you take religion out of the equation: Judaism, Islam and Christianity all. It doesn't help that Israeli politicians are courting crazy ultra-Orthodox bigots to stay in power and the entire Muslim world's simplified, Muslim vs. Jew view of the issue also doesn't help things.

    Somewhere along the line, the people themselves have to realise that land must be shared and  that Jerusalem doesn't belong to just one group. The only way that will happen is if secular movements rise up in Israel and Palestine. Hopefully they'll look past Biblical claims and apply common sense and international law to the issue.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #7 - July 16, 2014, 10:46 AM

    ^Perhaps in the 50s/60s when secularism had a root in that region, this could've remained as a territorial conflict. Unfortunately, that's not the case now, I only see a real breakthrough happening if religion is not seen as a minimal part of the equation.

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #8 - July 16, 2014, 01:44 PM

    I think we are seeing a lot more outrage and facebook activism over the recent Israel / Palestine spat because of ISIS. Muslims right now are desperate to find anything to distract them from ISIS atrocities that they are jumping on the Palestine/Israel activism even more than normal.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #9 - July 16, 2014, 02:13 PM

    And/or maybe because it's Ramadan Grin

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #10 - July 16, 2014, 03:18 PM

    The Internet is awash with atrocity videos showing Isis goons executing truck drivers, blowing the brains out of other rebel leaders and beheading recalcitrant local leaders. These bastards are killing fellow Muslims in the nastiest ways imaginable but where's the outrage from the Muslim world? It was only when Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi proclaimed himself a caliph that clerics got angry.

    Maybe moderates are finding the situation very uncomfortable because they agree with some things Isis have done regarding Islamic law even if they can't stomach the group's violence. Well here's your barbaric caliphate, enjoy it...
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #11 - July 16, 2014, 05:06 PM

    Hello all,
    A palestinian christian here, who had a very short stint of interest in Islam, that was short due in part to materials from CEMB.

    The picture portrayed in the west about the conflict, the situation in Iraq, and in Syria is a very skewed and flawed one, example in the following video.

    ABC Manipulates Truth to Fit Pro-Israel Bias | Weapons of Mass Distraction on youtube (I can't post links)


    1st of all, the initial resistance (falsely called terror) during the 60s and the 70s was mostly secular , fatah (Yassir Arafat's organization) and the PFLP (George Habash) were totally secular, and mostly marxist, many high ranking people there were christians (George Habash, Wadih haddad, Nayef hawatmeh, Layla khaled the planes abducting girl was also christian I think) Hamas was supported by Israel to become an opposition to these organizations, the resistance was supported by great liberal/marxist novelist/poets/scholars such as mahmoud darkwish, Edward Said and Ghassan Kanafany, the same like Ossama Bin Laden was groomed and funded by the US to fight the soviets in Afghanistan.
    The people hear of the conflict is as if it's war between 2 nations, nothing could be further from the truth.
    In 1967 Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan and Ghaza (which was an orphan area populated by refugees), ever since Israel has been eating slowly the land from the people who have already been traumatized in 1948 and deported from their homes, a documentary (one of hundreds) that describes the life of Palestinians in the west bank could be found here.

    ( Google life in occupied palestine in films for action)  (Again I can't post links)

    Israel have repeatedly killed Palestinians many of them children on daily basis (I'm not talking about "war" times), the investigations are usually closed without any charges or with a slap on the wrist. Before these 3 youths were kidnapped, tens of palestinians were killed only in 2014, many of them children on their way to/from school.

    Ghaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, 7 years under siege (with the cooperation of the Egyptian government because of the peace treaty with Israel), that the fact her people are still alive and able to provide any resemblance of struggle is amazing, against the most powerful air force outside of the US, and the strongest army by far in the whole middle east.

    The sad truth is that Islamic youth have been indoctrinated by religion to be used as tools, and the impossible situation in Palestine is fertile ground for it, I know this because I ,as a christian, have suffered Muslim bigotry and violence, and I know exactly how these people are being moved and to who's bidding, I also know that things haven't always been this way, and there's a guiding hand that props up the new enemy of the state, they moved for Nazi to Communist to Islamists today, in all cases the enemy was funded and grown by the west itself.

    Don't let yourself be distracted from the crimes against humanity that are being committed in Palestine, and be careful when drawing parallels to Iraq, remember the false pretenses that were used in both Iraqi wars.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #12 - July 16, 2014, 06:40 PM

    Welcome to CEMB khalils - it's good to get a view on here from a Palestinian.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #13 - July 16, 2014, 07:10 PM

    Hello all,
    A palestinian christian here, who had a very short stint of interest in Islam, that was short due in part to materials from CEMB.

    The picture portrayed in the west about the conflict, the situation in Iraq, and in Syria is a very skewed and flawed one, example in the following video.

    ABC Manipulates Truth to Fit Pro-Israel Bias | Weapons of Mass Distraction on youtube (I can't post links)


    1st of all, the initial resistance (falsely called terror) during the 60s and the 70s was mostly secular , fatah (Yassir Arafat's organization) and the PFLP (George Habash) were totally secular, and mostly marxist, many high ranking people there were christians (George Habash, Wadih haddad, Nayef hawatmeh, Layla khaled the planes abducting girl was also christian I think) Hamas was supported by Israel to become an opposition to these organizations, the resistance was supported by great liberal/marxist novelist/poets/scholars such as mahmoud darkwish, Edward Said and Ghassan Kanafany, the same like Ossama Bin Laden was groomed and funded by the US to fight the soviets in Afghanistan.
    The people hear of the conflict is as if it's war between 2 nations, nothing could be further from the truth.
    In 1967 Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan and Ghaza (which was an orphan area populated by refugees), ever since Israel has been eating slowly the land from the people who have already been traumatized in 1948 and deported from their homes, a documentary (one of hundreds) that describes the life of Palestinians in the west bank could be found here.

    ( Google life in occupied palestine in films for action)  (Again I can't post links)

    Israel have repeatedly killed Palestinians many of them children on daily basis (I'm not talking about "war" times), the investigations are usually closed without any charges or with a slap on the wrist. Before these 3 youths were kidnapped, tens of palestinians were killed only in 2014, many of them children on their way to/from school.

    Ghaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, 7 years under siege (with the cooperation of the Egyptian government because of the peace treaty with Israel), that the fact her people are still alive and able to provide any resemblance of struggle is amazing, against the most powerful air force outside of the US, and the strongest army by far in the whole middle east.

    The sad truth is that Islamic youth have been indoctrinated by religion to be used as tools, and the impossible situation in Palestine is fertile ground for it, I know this because I ,as a christian, have suffered Muslim bigotry and violence, and I know exactly how these people are being moved and to who's bidding, I also know that things haven't always been this way, and there's a guiding hand that props up the new enemy of the state, they moved for Nazi to Communist to Islamists today, in all cases the enemy was funded and grown by the west itself.

    Don't let yourself be distracted from the crimes against humanity that are being committed in Palestine, and be careful when drawing parallels to Iraq, remember the false pretenses that were used in both Iraqi wars.


    To be fair I do not call it resistance. Israeli could do a heck of a lot more damage with its military than people think. Israeli holds back it's actions due to the international community. If the military switched to a total war doctrine of WW2 they could wipe both territories and the majority of it's people off the map.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #14 - July 16, 2014, 07:26 PM

    You're probably right, but they would also suffer huge losses in life and in this case the arab people of neighboring states will not sit oddly by and watch, right now it's still a make belief that they want peace, the Israeli people aren't stupid, they want nothing to do with the occupied territories, they are being led to war by maniacs who still dream of the large Israel (deep into Iraq).
    It wasn't long ago (2005) when Israel was still trying to maintain the occupation in Ghaza, they suffered many deaths that they fled out of there.

    There are many Israelies who came out against the occupation, you won't hear about them because of the media back out, many of the Israelies who work with me have told me how they were torn between their orders and their humanity while maning the checkpoints in the west bank.

    P.S. Look what Hizballa did to Israel, once when they made them fled and the other in 2006.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #15 - July 16, 2014, 07:29 PM

    Hello all,
    ...........................
    The picture portrayed in the west about the conflict, the situation in Iraq, and in Syria is a very skewed and flawed one, example in the following video.

    ABC Manipulates Truth to Fit Pro-Israel Bias | Weapons of Mass Distraction on youtube (I can't post links)


    hello khalils glad to see you joining CEMB forum., This is very important post, so let me add this to that other 100 page folder on this problem ., That is absolutely true., Every one wants to exploit and take advantage of Israel-Palestine problem ., Not only ABC but all over the world many  channels and many politicians exploit that issue for their advantage., but the problem is still there and problem is how to solve it ., What do you suggest khalils ?

    Quote
    A palestinian christian here, who had a very short stint of interest in Islam, that was short due in part to materials from CEMB.

    I didn't get this ., you mean to say,  you read CEMB forum and you joined Islam or you just wanted know what Islam was? You found Islam from CEMB forum?

    We will discuss rest of your post in time but please read other thread..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #16 - July 16, 2014, 07:40 PM

    I was never interested in Islam as a religion, but I was studying the economics of Islam (specifically monetary policy in islamic state), I saw saw some lectures about Islam (science and miracles), researched if they were true, things got very interesting Smiley and got here.

    The problem is deeper IMO, I strongly believe that Islam is being used right now as "enemy of the state", it makes things easier for imperialism to invade Iraq and Afghanistan when you can just point your finger and say "Islamic fundamentalist over there! be very afraid! we will kill them for you" and of course islamists never run out of people to prove western propaganda.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #17 - July 16, 2014, 07:42 PM

    There are many Israelies who came out against the occupation, you won't hear about them because of the media back out, many of the Israelies who work with me have told me how they were torn between their orders and their humanity while maning the checkpoints in the west bank.


    A statement from some of them here: http://972mag.com/an-open-letter-to-the-family-of-mohammed-abu-khdeir/93751/

    This account from a former soldier is also worth reading: http://972mag.com/how-an-army-of-defense-turned-into-soldiers-of-vengeance/93740/
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #18 - July 16, 2014, 07:59 PM

    Thanks zeca, there is also "Breaking the Silence" and "Betselem" organizations similar to 972mag.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #19 - July 16, 2014, 08:06 PM

    I was never interested in Islam as a religion, but I was studying the economics of Islam (specifically monetary policy in islamic state), I saw saw some lectures about Islam (science and miracles), researched if they were true, things got very interesting Smiley and got here.

    why not khalils., why you are not interested Islam as a religion, after all you grew up in Palestine., how can you try to solve or discuss the problem without understanding religions that are there??  
    Quote
    The problem is deeper IMO, I strongly believe that Islam is being used right now as "enemy of the state",

    by who? Americans?

    Quote
    it makes things easier for imperialism to invade Iraq and Afghanistan when you can just point your finger and say "Islamic fundamentalist over there! be very afraid! we will kill them for you" and of course islamists never run out of people to prove western propaganda.

     
    How much money did these imperialist get by invading Iraq and Afghanistan ?  And do you all these imperialists that controls west are Jews?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #20 - July 16, 2014, 08:27 PM

    Hello all,
    A palestinian christian here, who had a very short stint of interest in Islam, that was short due in part to materials from CEMB.

    The picture portrayed in the west about the conflict, the situation in Iraq, and in Syria is a very skewed and flawed one, example in the following video.

    ABC Manipulates Truth to Fit Pro-Israel Bias | Weapons of Mass Distraction on youtube (I can't post links)


    1st of all, the initial resistance (falsely called terror) during the 60s and the 70s was mostly secular , fatah (Yassir Arafat's organization) and the PFLP (George Habash) were totally secular, and mostly marxist, many high ranking people there were christians (George Habash, Wadih haddad, Nayef hawatmeh, Layla khaled the planes abducting girl was also christian I think) Hamas was supported by Israel to become an opposition to these organizations, the resistance was supported by great liberal/marxist novelist/poets/scholars such as mahmoud darkwish, Edward Said and Ghassan Kanafany, the same like Ossama Bin Laden was groomed and funded by the US to fight the soviets in Afghanistan.
    The people hear of the conflict is as if it's war between 2 nations, nothing could be further from the truth.
    In 1967 Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan and Ghaza (which was an orphan area populated by refugees), ever since Israel has been eating slowly the land from the people who have already been traumatized in 1948 and deported from their homes, a documentary (one of hundreds) that describes the life of Palestinians in the west bank could be found here.

    ( Google life in occupied palestine in films for action)  (Again I can't post links)

    Israel have repeatedly killed Palestinians many of them children on daily basis (I'm not talking about "war" times), the investigations are usually closed without any charges or with a slap on the wrist. Before these 3 youths were kidnapped, tens of palestinians were killed only in 2014, many of them children on their way to/from school.

    Ghaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, 7 years under siege (with the cooperation of the Egyptian government because of the peace treaty with Israel), that the fact her people are still alive and able to provide any resemblance of struggle is amazing, against the most powerful air force outside of the US, and the strongest army by far in the whole middle east.

    The sad truth is that Islamic youth have been indoctrinated by religion to be used as tools, and the impossible situation in Palestine is fertile ground for it, I know this because I ,as a christian, have suffered Muslim bigotry and violence, and I know exactly how these people are being moved and to who's bidding, I also know that things haven't always been this way, and there's a guiding hand that props up the new enemy of the state, they moved for Nazi to Communist to Islamists today, in all cases the enemy was funded and grown by the west itself.

    Don't let yourself be distracted from the crimes against humanity that are being committed in Palestine, and be careful when drawing parallels to Iraq, remember the false pretenses that were used in both Iraqi wars.


    Welcome to the forum khalils. That's a very interesting perspective you bring to this issue. I hope that some positive change can happen for people there.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #21 - July 16, 2014, 08:40 PM

    Quote
    why not khalils., why you are not interested Islam as a religion, after all you grew up in Palestine., how can you try to solve or discuss the problem without understanding religions that are there??  


    You seem to have deep issues with Islam Smiley I'm just an atheist.

    Quote
    How much money did these imperialist get by invading Iraq and Afghanistan ?  And do you all these imperialists that controls west are Jews?


    Didn't you read "the protocols of zion elderly"?!! Smiley
    I don't think they have one particular race or religion, and I don't know who's doing the bidding.
    I know for a fact that both Iraq wars were created on false pretenses, I know that 9/11 has more questions surrounding it than the Quran, I see on daily basis the absolute bias and disinformation in the media, this level of disinformation can NOT be by accident.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #22 - July 16, 2014, 08:44 PM

    You seem to have deep issues with Islam Smiley I'm just an atheist.

    well good for you but I have problem with all faiths .. all are bogus and nonsense..

    Quote
    Didn't you read "the protocols of zion elderly"?!! Smiley
    I don't think they have one particular race or religion, and I don't know who's doing the bidding.
    I know for a fact that both Iraq wars were created on false pretenses, I know that 9/11 has more questions surrounding it than the Quran, I see on daily basis the absolute bias and disinformation in the media, this level of disinformation can NOT be by accident.

    So khalils  you think 9/11 was done by Americans/Juice and it is conspiracy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #23 - July 16, 2014, 09:01 PM

    We can only view the evidence at hand and make conclusions based on it.
    The way I see it, the official story released to us does not add up, I don't know what exactly happened on 9/11, I know that it smells a lot, I don't know why you keep naming the "juice" as the conspirators, I live with them, they are victims of their government too, just not as much as the Palestinians, and I mentioned this in my first post.
    There are basic rights for us as humans in modern society, the first and foremost is the right to due judicial process,  the way things are going on around the world is
    1. tragedy happens
    2. government points its fingers at some people and accuses them
    3. open fire at them

    It happened in Iraq, it happened in Serbia, It happen Afghanistan, and it happens regularly in Palestine.
    The casualties are from both sides, I believe we as humans should be at this stage of time, wiser and more patient, because fast judgement without evidence we use to kill people, will some day be used to kill us.
    The same way you doubted religion and understood it's a mind control scheme, you should apply this to authority and question it, if you are not careful you may be balming the victims and piling on them.
  • Asymmetric outrage.
     Reply #24 - July 16, 2014, 09:02 PM

    Newsflash: Members of the Ummah are busy being Facebook activists for the Palestine/Israel conflict.
    Meanwhile, ISIS are running rampant in Mosul, removing crosses from Churches.

    Basically, what Maajid Nawaz said: https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/487197662455005184

    Your thoughts?


    I thought this was a fair point:

    Peter Robinson ‏@PeterRobinson76  Jul 10
    @MaajidNawaz ISIS is a terror group and Israel is a member of the UN and an ally of the USA.
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