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Theme Changer

 Topic: First comes love, then comes marriage...

 (Read 25265 times)
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  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     OP - July 30, 2014, 12:04 AM

    Then your hijabi wife secretly apostasizes.

    Hello members of CEMB,

    I'm a newly married woman who began questioning her faith after finding her Prince Charming. There are several things that led me to apostasy, but I was first drawn to disbelief by the unfair treatment of women in Islam. Eventually and after much reading, everything else began to build up and I just could not handle the mental gymnastics it took to stay a believer. I gave up on my faith a couple of months after marrying, but I have not spoken of it to my husband. I can get away with it because we had a "love marriage," and we never made it a habit to speak of our faith to each other. Neither of us pray at home, and he has voluntarily skipped several Ramadan fasts. He doesn't attend Friday prayers, either. I wear the hijab because I haven't summoned the courage to take it off yet.

    In the beginning, I felt quite helpless about my situation. I can live under the guise of a nonpracticing Muslim because I am married and not living with my family. But I risk losing that if I tell my husband, since I am afraid he would claim our marriage to be nullified should I apostasize and become a kafir temptress instead of the wife he chose and loves. We have no children yet, but it pains me to think about having to circumcise my boys or ask my daughters to wear hijab.

    As far as our marriage goes, apart from Islam potentially messing things up, we're golden. We love and respect each other, we take care of each other like husband and wife do, we encourage each other to be better people. We tend to be very honest with each other, which is why I feel conflicted about keeping this secret. Although he is not the most regular Muslim in practice, he is firm in his belief and Islam is important to him. He is a smart man and I pathetically find myself fantasizing that he will find apostasy on his own. It's stupid, I know.

    In another online community, I was told that I should tell my husband out of respect and leave him. Is it selfish of me to not want to end the marriage? I still encourage him to pray and pursue that which puts his heart at ease. He is not forceful in his beliefs, and considers faith to be a personal journey. He is the perfect Muslim for me, at least right now...

    How unreasonable am I being?
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #1 - July 30, 2014, 12:09 AM

    Hi, welcome to the forum  Smiley

    If you can accomodate your conscience within your marriage, stay in a marriage that makes you happy. That is the litmus test, your happiness.  He sounds like a good guy, who is liberal himself, maybe you can gradually, incrementally, step by step take him along the path you are travelling?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #2 - July 30, 2014, 12:25 AM

    Thank you for the welcome, billy. I am happy, and he is an exceptional man. He was raised quite secularly, and can be quite critical of Islam himself. Like I mentioned, I would love for him to find the truth on his own, but I am willing to ask the right questions to get him to start thinking.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #3 - July 30, 2014, 12:32 AM

    Greetings, um huraira. Have a parrot:

     parrot

    Sounds like you guys are doing pretty well together. I do hope you both can overcome any differences and will be able to build a loving family.

    My ex-hubbie (I'm an ex-convert so our marriage was a love marriage.) was more practicing than me and for a while it worked but after a couple of years I realized I just couldn't go on trying to live the islamic lifestyle; it just wasn't natural for me. Hubbie was disappointed when I told him I wasn't gonna pray, fast, or wear the hijab anymore but he accepted it. Things would have been ok except our differences in belief and me being alienated from his family after i stopped practicing just wasn't going to work for me. I also was scared that if we had kids, the. I would be stuck in a situation where I'd have to raise them muslim and play the part of the good Muslim mom/wife.  Tongue

    I ended up asking for a divorce which he agreed to. He remarried 9 months later and has two children from his current wife. We still talk though so everything's ok between us.

    I hope you don't end up in my position and can make your marriage work out. Your hubbie sounds like a good guy. Just keep working at him bit by bit and hopefully he will realize what a load of bs Islam, and religion in general really are.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #4 - July 30, 2014, 12:33 AM

    Btw, couldn't help but notice your name. Do you like cats?

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #5 - July 30, 2014, 12:56 AM

    Aw, thank you for the parrot Nour. Here's one for you.  parrot

    I am both happy and sad to hear about how your marriage fared after your deconversion. Ultimately, you are very strong to have made the choice to request a divorce... That remains a very very scary thought for me, but I hope I can face it if it comes to that.

    I come from the more religious family, so even if I were not married I don't think I would ever be able to publicly abandon Islam. I could never see his parents demonizing me as a nonpracticing Muslim. They are quite liberal and loving to me. But in the case of my family, I will probably cause less harm and heartbreak by living as a nonpracticing Muslim than as an outright apostate for the rest of my life. I have just accepted this as a part of my cultural background... Talk about trying to make the best of a situation!

    As for the potential children of our marriage... He once told me that the only thing we can do as parents is present our best Muslim example, and what our kids embrace from there is their choice. He (all on his own) said that we can try our best, but our children may not end up Muslim... Which makes me very optimistic!

    And I'm glad you asked about my cat! She is the love of my life, that rascal. My name is very appropriate in that respect.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #6 - July 30, 2014, 01:06 AM

    Welcome  Smiley

    I don't think you should hang any hopes on him leaving Islam. He may or may not, but you need to face what's in front of you as it is.

    It seems you are in love with each other and he seems like a liberal Muslim, so I'm sort-of inclined to say there is no problem and it might be better to just keep your apostasy quiet. But then again things may change - you are newly weds and marriages always go through ups and downs - and kids change everything and add lots of stress onto a relationship.

    My gut feeling is honesty is the best policy in a marriage or you will be storing up more painful heartache later - especially if kids are involved.

  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #7 - July 30, 2014, 01:24 AM

    Abu Ali, thank you for the welcome, and thank you for your honest insight.

    You are right, we are both young and this marriage is even younger. There is no telling what will happen when kids are thrown in the mix. Hm... It's not what I want to hear, but I am glad you said it!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #8 - July 30, 2014, 01:47 AM

    Welcome! Know how you feel, man. Became an apostate two years after my marriage to a very much practicing Saudi. In the end, he took it pretty well, although we both still don't really see eye to eye on anything, but I definitely remember those months before he figured out. It was a tough and confusing time, to say the least.

    Everyone else has given you excellent advice. Advice that might be difficult to take, but the right advice nonetheless. It's better to be honest early than risk disaster at a more critical time down the line, but if you can open his mind a bit more beforehand it would soften the blow.

    Welcome, and hope you stick around!  parrot
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #9 - July 30, 2014, 04:36 AM

    lua, I am relieved to hear from someone who has been in my position. Relieved and also a little anxious since it seems that I need to plan on telling him.

    Would you please share a bit more about how you told your husband about your apostasy? Are you out of the closet to your husband only, or are you totally public?

    Edit, I thought I would do the smart thing and read your own intro post (I hope that doesn't qualify me as a stalker--eep!). You sound incredibly well-versed, far more than I could hope to be. I hope it works out for the best for the both of us.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #10 - July 30, 2014, 05:29 AM

    Welcome to the forum. Have a rabbit!  bunny

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #11 - July 30, 2014, 05:34 AM

    Welcome. A parrot for you. parrot

    I understand what you're saying. I suppose if there was no possibility of children it would be another matter but you can't lie to them and bring them up to believe something you feel in your heart isn't true.

    Honesty can be daunting sometimes, especially when we know honesty will potentially cause pain and ruin something good. I suggest you reflect on this for yourself. Ask yourself if you can have children, pretend you think islam is something you know it's not and raise them to believe what in your eyes is a lie. We had a poster recently who has left islam but who's girlfriend and possible future wife wanted to raise muslim children. She knows about his apostasy but wanted him to pretend to be muslim anyway. You can see here the advice given.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26756.msg763949#msg763949

    Honestly, what I said to him is pretty much what I'd say to you. This is something you really need to think about and come to a decision over. Both keeping up a pretence and telling the truth will have consequences. One is living a lie, the other is possibly ruining a marriage. But your husband seems like a sound bloke from what you've said. If you tell him and he wants to continue the marriage you might agree that if/when you have children, you both tell them what you do and don't believe, answer any questions they have honestly, and let them make up their own minds when they're old enough.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #12 - July 30, 2014, 09:00 AM

    If you make each other happy and care so much about each other, and if he's so careless about his religion that he voluntarily skips fasting a few days during Ramadan, like others said, you could keep your apostasy on the down low. I realize hijab is an issue, but maybe you could talk to him about taking it off, saying that there is no clear verse about covering one's hair, and that so long as you dress modestly (for starters) Allah won't disapprove?

    Also I'd give having children some time, especially since you're both so young. At least until the situation is stable and you are sure of your choices.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #13 - July 30, 2014, 09:10 AM

    Welcome bunny and a parrot too parrot

    IMO, you should try to ease into being less practicing rather than outright declare apostasy. I'm thinking you could try something like this; just step by step become openly less religious then maybe try planting the seeds of doubt in your husband's mind and getting him to slowly let go of Islam. 

    Lua has been quite successful with this, I'd follow her advice Grin 
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #14 - July 30, 2014, 09:19 AM

    I'm no expert but I do agree honesty is the best policy. I understand that the situation differs greatly from what I think to what you do, even if we were to sit in the same seat. I personally would be honest with him; maybe start by poisoning the well; try first hinting at it with some of the weaker Qur'an verses(embryology, apostasy, slavery, etc....), maybe add in some of the odd hadiths and happenings in the Islam(e.g. it never sat well with me that Muhammad married a 6 year old who was suddenly taken away from her home and into his bed at the age of 9, or the mubashareen-bel-Jannah murdering countless other Muslims being okay[from that they are mubashareen-bel-Jannah] but having same-marriage sex is punishable by stoning to death, etc...). Try and and lead him down the same road you walked. He doesn't seem to be that into it anyways, maybe he's having his own issues with Islam. Best case scenario, he's suffering with how to tell you about his apostasy. Worst case scenario, you get divorced instead of living a lie and being uncomfortable for so many years.

    Lastly, welcome, and I hope you enjoy your stay  Ozonedance

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #15 - July 30, 2014, 09:27 AM

    Welcome parrot
    I think everyone here has given solid advice, so take your pick.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #16 - July 30, 2014, 09:38 AM

    Welcome home Humaira. You are at the place where you belong, where your mind is challenged, fit and strong.

    It seems that everything that's needed to be said has been said.

    Heed these words: Have patience young padawan. Think, think and think it through. At the same time, unthink, unthink and unthink it through. Do not think too much for by overthinking you may commit an error and fall upon a mistake but you may also stumble into trouble by not thinking enough thereby taking away your ability to anticipate future troubles. But then you commit the mistake of thinking of an argument and then brining it to life - self fulfilled prophecy. DO NOT challenge his beliefs but show respect and he shall see in you the perfect example of how to be civillised with one another and how to acommodate disparate views.

    Forget the above.

    Heed these words: Live, love and live some more. You are only young once and you are in love. Perfect combination. So long as there's no domestic abuse live with him, laugh with him and do the hanky panky. Fill your mind with happiness and open your eyes to everything. Hold his hand and both go on YOUR OWN path for now you are one. Everything is at second place.

    Because whatever the truth is there is only one truth...



    Taste the unicorn

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #17 - July 30, 2014, 11:38 AM

    Then your hijabi wife secretly apostasizes.

    Hello members of CEMB,

    I'm a newly married woman who began questioning her faith after finding her Prince Charming. There are several things that led me to apostasy, but I was first drawn to disbelief by the unfair treatment of women in Islam. Eventually and after much reading, everything else began to build up and I just could not handle the mental gymnastics it took to stay a believer. I gave up on my faith a couple of months after marrying, but I have not spoken of it to my husband. I can get away with it because we had a "love marriage," and we never made it a habit to speak of our faith to each other. Neither of us pray at home, and he has voluntarily skipped several Ramadan fasts. He doesn't attend Friday prayers, either. I wear the hijab because I haven't summoned the courage to take it off yet.

    In the beginning, I felt quite helpless about my situation. I can live under the guise of a nonpracticing Muslim because I am married and not living with my family. But I risk losing that if I tell my husband, since I am afraid he would claim our marriage to be nullified should I apostasize and become a kafir temptress instead of the wife he chose and loves. We have no children yet, but it pains me to think about having to circumcise my boys or ask my daughters to wear hijab.

    As far as our marriage goes, apart from Islam potentially messing things up, we're golden. We love and respect each other, we take care of each other like husband and wife do, we encourage each other to be better people. We tend to be very honest with each other, which is why I feel conflicted about keeping this secret. Although he is not the most regular Muslim in practice, he is firm in his belief and Islam is important to him. He is a smart man and I pathetically find myself fantasizing that he will find apostasy on his own. It's stupid, I know.

    In another online community, I was told that I should tell my husband out of respect and leave him. Is it selfish of me to not want to end the marriage? I still encourage him to pray and pursue that which puts his heart at ease. He is not forceful in his beliefs, and considers faith to be a personal journey. He is the perfect Muslim for me, at least right now...

    How unreasonable am I being?


    Where are you two from? You sound like an intelligent enough person and I'm sure I don't need to tell you that attitudes towards apostasy vary from culture to culture.

    Myself I come from a conservative turkish family that is pretty obstinate in its beliefs. Yet, paradoxically, as is the nature of Turkish (and to an extent Syrian) sunnism, the overabundant sufi influence is juxtaposed with a sort of Ottoman Hanafi-maturidi'ism and    a belief in a pious Hayekian neoliberal capitalism, that is to say, capitalism is inherently a defective system but its defects can be remedied by islamising it.

    Many people will tell you that the ex-muslim identity only really emerged in the last ten years or so. This is both true and untrue. prior to the death of communism and the Iranian revolution and the assertion of islamic identity politics, ex-muslims were simply known as atheists. You do not hear  about these atheists from islamic backgrounds (even though they numbered in the tens of thousands!) for various reasons:
    1) most of them were socialists/communists, demonised, tortured and executed by despotic states (often backed by the centres of free market capitalism, the US in particular.)
    2) Many of these people were ordinary, working men, women and youth (yes youth!) from rural areas, often from peasant backgrounds who did not possess a premium level education and had to make do with pirated samizdat material. So it's all well saying 'ah well these people were Maoists, Stalinists, etc,' but that was the only form of socialism that was really available to these people. They didn't have the luxury of debating autonomous Marxism in plush and cosy seminar rooms whilst taking drags on marlboro cigarettes.
    3) Their atheism was merely an adjunct to bettering their conditions and taking control of their destinies. They had absolutely nothing in common with a rich man in the UK who had decided to read Hegel, Husserl, Nietzsche and Wittgenstein and develop an epistemological critique of religious dogma. Religion, for them, was a force that divided workers/peasants against workers/peasants. Rather than endeavouring to agitate for atheism, their goal was to agitate for workers/peasants to cooperate.
    4) the very people we today look to for support in the islamic world, secular elites, were unwilling to acknowledge that atheists could exist. Kemalists, for instance, have always painted Atatürk out to be a liberal, rakı-drinking muslim, despite learned protestations otherwise. In fact, recall, that the controversy surrounding the pianist Fazıl Say was directly based on Kemalist edicts, not AKP ones. I don't mean to suggest that ex-muslim movements should be exclusively analysed from the purview of secular Turkey, but it is useful to consider what went wrong there.

    For me to announce to my family that I am an atheist would not be an act of free thought, religious belief or conscience. It would be political suicide. The term atheist would connote several things. That I tacitly back the secular bureaucracy and their military coups, that I oppose any form of public religious display (Laïcité) that I am a western imperialist, that I believe that the moderately islamic AKP should be deposed via force by the republicans and their coalitions (not that I don't believe they shouldn't be deposed, but it should come from the working class who are going to be dragged into deeper poverty in the next five years) that I am at least a communist sympathiser for the sole purpose of obstructing the newly emerging islamic bourgeoisie (in reality I'm against all bourgeoisies, islamic or not.)

    So it isn't simply an issue of whether this guy/his family are liberal muslims. It's more about how he conceptualises his islamic identity. Is he an ummahist? Or does he believe that muslims and non-muslims can cooperate to bring about a better world. If this ayah frequently gets dropped in conversation, then I'd be cautious.

    5:51:

    Quote
    O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #18 - July 30, 2014, 11:39 AM

    ^same here, converted then a few months later married a very practising man.  Didn't realise what i had got into until the marriage, i was originally planning on marrying a non practising muslim and not wear hijabi as it was the culture that i was drawn to, but i made a huge mistake,  i instantly apostacised in secret but kept up the lie for about 8 years, i was incredibly miserable, my ex knew i wasnt practising i lied to him every day and say that i have prayed etc, he would then go check out the bathroom to see evidence that i made ablution, he'd get very abusive about it and avoid coming home most days.  I don't think you should work on your husband or manipulate his thinking, i would just be honest and open about your feelings, it is a lot easier to be open with a liberal husband, i couldnt have done that with mine.  If you can't bring yourself to admit it to him do what Al-alethia said show it through action, he will soon realise, i would avoid having children until you both come to an understanding.  wish you well   : )

  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #19 - July 30, 2014, 12:14 PM

    Welcome sister Smiley
    I like your thread title. Unfortunately I can't offer advice as I'm fairly confused in my own marriage to Muslimah at the best of times.
    Regardless have a  parrot & a  bunny
    Hope you enjoy your stay.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #20 - July 30, 2014, 02:19 PM

    lua, I am relieved to hear from someone who has been in my position. Relieved and also a little anxious since it seems that I need to plan on telling him.

    Would you please share a bit more about how you told your husband about your apostasy? Are you out of the closet to your husband only, or are you totally public?

    Edit, I thought I would do the smart thing and read your own intro post (I hope that doesn't qualify me as a stalker--eep!). You sound incredibly well-versed, far more than I could hope to be. I hope it works out for the best for the both of us.


    Nah, the first thing I do when I'm curious about a user is see if they wrote an introduction, too.

    As of right now, I've pretty much only told my husband and my grandmother and the whole internet, and I guess I wouldn't mind it staying like that...

    Jedi and I are are definitely going to be giving you two polar opposite opinions on things like this, but, in the end, you'll know the guy best. In my case, had I told the husband about my apostasy as soon as it happened, it would have ended in divorce. There's no question. Even in those early days, he once made a comment about how, if I became an atheist and we had kids, he'd kidnap them to Saudi Arabia, but he generously added things like, "I wouldn't want to, I'd be sad to leave you, but you'd give me no choice."  wacko

    Now, that was back when he was a strict Sunni who wouldn't eat baked goods with vanilla extract, who lectured me about eating at my parents' house when the family dog also ate in that house, was a vocal critic (instead of just a reserved one, now) of homosexuals and Jews, and literally believed that the world was controlled by the llluminati. Skip to today, he owns a dog that, dare I say, he loves much more than he loves me, and he has developed the good sense to he horrified by the hadith, he's taken this super liberal view of the Quran where like no one goes to Hell and the punishments aren't real, he skipped almost all of Ramadan fasting this year, and he's thrown down with other Muslims in this area over correcting them for being the kind of jerk he used to be.

    I really had to push this development along in all sorts of ways, but in the end, you can lead a horse to water, blah blah blah. So I was really lucky that he was the sort of person who can make these positive changes and developments. My attempts on a different man to make his mind a bit more open might have failed spectacularly. But the point is, for he and I to still be together to this day (although, who knows what the future holds for us), I would have gone crazy if I had to pretend for much longer, and he would have left me if the news of my apostasy came at an earlier time.

    Like others said, it sounds like your husband is already a pretty liberal guy, but you need to get a feel for exactly how liberal. I mean, you're right in that a great many Muslims (not to mention imams) would consider a marriage to an apostate to be invalid, and if your husband hears this or knows this, you need to know ahead of time how it will affect him. Will he keep on going despite it? Will he spend the rest of your marriage trying to coax you back into Islam? Will he fear punishment and difficulties with the future kids and run off?

    Thinking back to the time my husband made that comment, I am certain it came up because we must have been talking about someone I know (out of an unfortunate few) who was betrayed by their husband/ex-husband and who had their kids taken away for whatever reason. It may be worth it to spend the next month or so bringing up similar stories just to talk about the issue with your husband in order to get a feel for his position on these things, on mixed marriages like yours will be, and on atheists/apostates in general.

    If his responses are disappointing, I guess you have a few options. Jedi, I think, is saying that you should just leave him be and lead by example. That wouldn't have worked for me, but maybe it would for you. You could also cut your losses and end the relationship, although that would be the hardest option, and the one I didn't have the nerve to do, myself. Or you could spend a few more months, like I did, trying to slowly show him what he's missing, prompting him to walk in other people's shoes for a bit, seeing if you could build some platform on which you both can have at the very least some mutual understanding and respect that's not based on Islam. It's worth a shot, but there's no guarantee that it would work, unfortunately. But whatever you do, don't resign yourself to a life of pretending. That's the worst thing you could do.

    Considering how laid back he sounds, I have a lot of hope that you can make this work. You just really need to get to the bottom of his beliefs and how strongly he holds them before you do anything else. It may be the case that he's more the sort who culturally identifies with Islam but can't be bothered to take the theology very seriously, which would be amazing, so long as he didn't have a sudden mid-life strict phase (seen that one happen more than once). But once you know for sure exactly what he believes and where he's coming from, I think you'd have a much better idea of how this can play out.

    Finally, thank you for the well-versed comment! I'd think most people would say long-winded. Grin
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #21 - July 30, 2014, 08:25 PM

    Welcome, Umm Huraira! parrot

    Glad to have you on board.

    The future is full of thrilling possibilities.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #22 - July 31, 2014, 01:31 AM

    Wow, what a welcoming community. I feel at home already! As it seems to be a trend, here are some parrots and bunnies for you all--have your pick!  parrot bunny

    Honestly, what I said to him is pretty much what I'd say to you. This is something you really need to think about and come to a decision over. Both keeping up a pretence and telling the truth will have consequences. One is living a lie, the other is possibly ruining a marriage. But your husband seems like a sound bloke from what you've said. If you tell him and he wants to continue the marriage you might agree that if/when you have children, you both tell them what you do and don't believe, answer any questions they have honestly, and let them make up their own minds when they're old enough.

    Quod Sum Eris, thank you for your understanding. I read through that entire topic, and it was interesting to see how I would deal with a situation similar to mine from a third person point of view.

    Perhaps I feel like my situation differs, however, because I have never considered publicly renouncing Islam. My best case scenario (and the one I'm currently living) is that I am a nonpracticing Muslim. It will not bother me to bring children up with knowledge of Islam, nor will I keep them from learning Arabic, or celebrating Eid. I cannot dissociate from that aspect of my culture, it is literally unavoidable unless I decide to leave my family behind with my Islam. Maybe I am just fooling myself into thinking there is a difference...

    If you make each other happy and care so much about each other, and if he's so careless about his religion that he voluntarily skips fasting a few days during Ramadan, like others said, you could keep your apostasy on the down low. I realize hijab is an issue, but maybe you could talk to him about taking it off, saying that there is no clear verse about covering one's hair, and that so long as you dress modestly (for starters) Allah won't disapprove?

    Thank you for your insight, Naerys. I have spoken to him about my removing the hijab, at least. When I confessed it to him, he said that he wouldn't like it, but he wouldn't stop me. I got emotional as a result of the confession, and he comforted me and told me I can do what I want. On the other hand, when his menopausal mother asked him whether she should begin wearing the hijab, he told her not to bother since she was past her prime. So I suppose he falls somewhere in the middle regarding that issue.

    IMO, you should try to ease into being less practicing rather than outright declare apostasy. I'm still living at home and still closeted but my family takes the hints I drop, and if I do ever come out to them, I doubt it'd be a surprise to them. I dropped the hijab, stopped praying, make light of religion, etc to the point that they kind of just accept that I'm a "liberal/bad Muslim" probably on the fence re Islam, and they pray for my guidance and occasionally nag me about things. I'm thinking you could try something like that; just step by step become openly less religious then maybe try planting the seeds of doubt in your husband's mind and getting him to slowly let go of Islam. 

    A bunny and parrot to you too, Al-Alethia!  parrot bunny I have long since begun my descent into nonpractice, and he knows I do not pray or read Qur'an anymore. He knows I wish to remove the hijab as well. So the only illusion left is that I believe in God and his Prophet, because most all practice is gone. I think it is about time I made a topic in the secure section to describe in greater depth the dynamics of our religious relationship to provide better insight on the entire scenario... Because since we have gotten married, he has also experienced some changes in his religious beliefs and embraced a lesser-accepted sect of Islam, one different from my own. I have quite plainly asked him what will happen if I never believe what he believes, and he is fine with that. (Please do not quote me on this response, because I will likely get scared and edit it out later!)
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #23 - July 31, 2014, 01:40 AM

    I'm no expert but I do agree honesty is the best policy. I understand that the situation differs greatly from what I think to what you do, even if we were to sit in the same seat. I personally would be honest with him; maybe start by poisoning the well; try first hinting at it with some of the weaker Qur'an verses(embryology, apostasy, slavery, etc....), maybe add in some of the odd hadiths and happenings in the Islam(e.g. it never sat well with me that Muhammad married a 6 year old who was suddenly taken away from her home and into his bed at the age of 9, or the mubashareen-bel-Jannah murdering countless other Muslims being okay[from that they are mubashareen-bel-Jannah] but having same-marriage sex is punishable by stoning to death, etc...). Try and and lead him down the same road you walked. He doesn't seem to be that into it anyways, maybe he's having his own issues with Islam. Best case scenario, he's suffering with how to tell you about his apostasy. Worst case scenario, you get divorced instead of living a lie and being uncomfortable for so many years.

     
    Thank you for your honesty, xtremestr. You are pretty on point with your best case and worse case scenarios. I am now starting to think that a healthier course of action would be to tell him my legitimate gripes with Islam and walk him through my own thought processes, so that when he finally learns of my disbelief he won't be completely caught off-guard.

    Forget the above.

    Heed these words: Live, love and live some more. You are only young once and you are in love. Perfect combination. So long as there's no domestic abuse live with him, laugh with him and do the hanky panky. Fill your mind with happiness and open your eyes to everything. Hold his hand and both go on YOUR OWN path for now you are one. Everything is at second place.

    Because whatever the truth is there is only one truth...

    Taste the unicorn

    Jedi, you have quite outdone yourself with this welcome message. I have taken every word of it to heart. Except the above part, which I have promptly forgotten.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #24 - July 31, 2014, 02:19 AM

     parrot

    Welcome! I would say you have some good advice already. Nice to see you here!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #25 - July 31, 2014, 02:51 AM

    Where are you two from? You sound like an intelligent enough person and I'm sure I don't need to tell you that attitudes towards apostasy vary from culture to culture.

    Myself I come from a conservative turkish family that is pretty obstinate in its beliefs. Yet, paradoxically, as is the nature of Turkish (and to an extent Syrian) sunnism, the overabundant sufi influence is juxtaposed with a sort of Ottoman Hanafi-maturidi'ism and    a belief in a pious Hayekian neoliberal capitalism, that is to say, capitalism is inherently a defective system but its defects can be remedied by islamising it...

    schizo, I have to admit that I am ignorant of the cultural context that atheism may have in either my or my husband's backgrounds. Your message provided me with a lot of food for thought and you've certainly provided an angle that I have never considered before. I am afraid to disclose our ethnicities publicly, but if it interests you, I ask you to please send me a private message. His Islamic identity is quite unconventional, and I do not know how tightly it is tied to his cultural background.
    For what it's worth, in the entire time I have known him, I have not seen him closely friend a single other Muslim. All of his close friends are non-Muslim, and he quite regularly says he hates Muslims for being sheep.

    ^same here, converted then a few months later married a very practising man.  Didn't realise what i had got into until the marriage, i was originally planning on marrying a non practising muslim and not wear hijabi as it was the culture that i was drawn to, but i made a huge mistake,  i instantly apostacised in secret but kept up the lie for about 8 years, i was incredibly miserable, my ex knew i wasnt practising i lied to him every day and say that i have prayed etc, he would then go check out the bathroom to see evidence that i made ablution, he'd get very abusive about it and avoid coming home most days.  I don't think you should work on your husband or manipulate his thinking, i would just be honest and open about your feelings, it is a lot easier to be open with a liberal husband, i couldnt have done that with mine.  If you can't bring yourself to admit it to him do what Al-alethia said show it through action, he will soon realise, i would avoid having children until you both come to an understanding.  wish you well   : )

    Oh suki, I am sorry that you had to undergo such treatment at the hands of your ex for so long. Thank you for sharing your insight with me. We have purposely avoided having children early, and I agree that it is wise to push it back until we have come to an understanding.

    Welcome sister Smiley
    I like your thread title. Unfortunately I can't offer advice as I'm fairly confused in my own marriage to Muslimah at the best of times.
    Regardless have a  parrot & a  bunny
    Hope you enjoy your stay.

    Why, thank you! Here's to hoping we can reach non-confusing points in our marriages!  parrot

    Like others said, it sounds like your husband is already a pretty liberal guy, but you need to get a feel for exactly how liberal. I mean, you're right in that a great many Muslims (not to mention imams) would consider a marriage to an apostate to be invalid, and if your husband hears this or knows this, you need to know ahead of time how it will affect him. Will he keep on going despite it? Will he spend the rest of your marriage trying to coax you back into Islam? Will he fear punishment and difficulties with the future kids and run off?

    Thinking back to the time my husband made that comment, I am certain it came up because we must have been talking about someone I know (out of an unfortunate few) who was betrayed by their husband/ex-husband and who had their kids taken away for whatever reason. It may be worth it to spend the next month or so bringing up similar stories just to talk about the issue with your husband in order to get a feel for his position on these things, on mixed marriages like yours will be, and on atheists/apostates in general.

    If his responses are disappointing, I guess you have a few options. Jedi, I think, is saying that you should just leave him be and lead by example. That wouldn't have worked for me, but maybe it would for you. You could also cut your losses and end the relationship, although that would be the hardest option, and the one I didn't have the nerve to do, myself. Or you could spend a few more months, like I did, trying to slowly show him what he's missing, prompting him to walk in other people's shoes for a bit, seeing if you could build some platform on which you both can have at the very least some mutual understanding and respect that's not based on Islam. It's worth a shot, but there's no guarantee that it would work, unfortunately. But whatever you do, don't resign yourself to a life of pretending. That's the worst thing you could do.

    Considering how laid back he sounds, I have a lot of hope that you can make this work. You just really need to get to the bottom of his beliefs and how strongly he holds them before you do anything else. It may be the case that he's more the sort who culturally identifies with Islam but can't be bothered to take the theology very seriously, which would be amazing, so long as he didn't have a sudden mid-life strict phase (seen that one happen more than once). But once you know for sure exactly what he believes and where he's coming from, I think you'd have a much better idea of how this can play out.

    lua, I have to say that I am quite envious of the progress you have made with your husband! You have done an admirable job, to say the least. In our marriage, my husband is the philosopher, and in order for me to wiggle his Islamic foundation I need to be able to communicate with him on that level. Unfortunately, I don't have the smarts for philosophy... So the things that drew me to disbelief probably wouldn't concern him in the least (pshaw, women's rights?!).
    Thinking back... Oh gosh. When he was telling me about his parents' relationship history, he mentioned that his mother converted to Islam in the masjid parking lot so that his father could marry her. That doesn't bode very well for me...
    As I mentioned above, I think I will be creating a thread in the secured section of the forums so that I can air out the details of what I know on his position in Islam. I have been pushing this into the back of my mind for so long, but I think it hit me again today that he may not accept me if I do not accept Islam. I feel like throwing up...
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #26 - July 31, 2014, 03:30 AM

    Quote
    In our marriage, my husband is the philosopher, and in order for me to wiggle his Islamic foundation I need to be able to communicate with him on that level. Unfortunately, I don't have the smarts for philosophy... So the things that drew me to disbelief probably wouldn't concern him in the least (pshaw, women's rights?!).


    You most certainly have the smarts to hold your own, I'm sure. And, even if he's somehow leaps and bounds ahead of you intellectually, that's great, use that shit to your advantage! Pointing out the flaws of religion or illuminating the alternatives and the necessity for some humility with your baseless beliefs is something made so so much easier if the guy you're speaking to is a clever one. You might not have to lead him all the way to the water by yourself in that case. Grin
     
    Quote
    Thinking back... Oh gosh. When he was telling me about his parents' relationship history, he mentioned that his mother converted to Islam in the masjid parking lot so that his father could marry her. That doesn't bode very well for me...
    As I mentioned above, I think I will be creating a thread in the secured section of the forums so that I can air out the details of what I know on his position in Islam. I have been pushing this into the back of my mind for so long, but I think it hit me again today that he may not accept me if I do not accept Islam. I feel like throwing up...


    Yeah, the shelter board would be a good idea if you want more privacy. It won't be picked up by google, and not all members can see it...but either way, as for now, who knows what will happen? Nothing's set in stone yet. He sounds like a pretty relaxed guy from what you've said, so even if it's iffy now, that might change. It did for me, and my husband was way more uptight than yours seems to be. Don't let yourself worry too much.

    Quote
    On the other hand, when his menopausal mother asked him whether she should begin wearing the hijab, he told her not to bother since she was past her prime.


    Bonus of my apostasy is that I'll never have to hear my son tell me that in my old age. Grin
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #27 - July 31, 2014, 07:23 AM

    Welcome to the forum um huraira

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #28 - July 31, 2014, 07:24 PM

    You most certainly have the smarts to hold your own, I'm sure. And, even if he's somehow leaps and bounds ahead of you intellectually, that's great, use that shit to your advantage! Pointing out the flaws of religion or illuminating the alternatives and the necessity for some humility with your baseless beliefs is something made so so much easier if the guy you're speaking to is a clever one. You might not have to lead him all the way to the water by yourself in that case. Grin
     
    Yeah, the shelter board would be a good idea if you want more privacy. It won't be picked up by google, and not all members can see it...but either way, as for now, who knows what will happen? Nothing's set in stone yet. He sounds like a pretty relaxed guy from what you've said, so even if it's iffy now, that might change. It did for me, and my husband was way more uptight than yours seems to be. Don't let yourself worry too much.

    Bonus of my apostasy is that I'll never have to hear my son tell me that in my old age. Grin

    Yesterday he tells me that the book he's currently reading has caused him to completely abandon his belief in a certain minority branch of Islam that he fully embraced some months ago after what he told me was a lifetime of questioning. So let's add Islamic History to the list of things that will shake him up. (Me: "So where does your heart lie now [in regards to religious beliefs]?" Him: "Well, I'm still Muslim.")  Goodness gracious.

    I told him I'd still love him even if he wanted to start whirling with the dervishes, so we'll see what happens from here! He has already proven to me that he is capable of critical thought, and that his religious identity is...fluid to say the least. I'm optimistic.

    And LOL, bonus of your apostasy is you'll never find yourself asking your son that question in the first place!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #29 - July 31, 2014, 07:30 PM

    OH, LOL, he thought I'd be relieved that he'd "finally seen the light" or something. To be fair, the first time he confessed leaning to this sect, I was still Muslim, so I was pretty taken aback. Not accepting in the least. Oh, poor guy.
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