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 Topic: Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?

 (Read 8474 times)
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  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     OP - August 03, 2014, 02:25 PM

    Some of you might be aware of a recent article by an Israeli blogger that became controversial because it tried to advocate that there may be instances where genocide is morally justified. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/01/the-blogger-who-offered-an-argument-for-palestinian-genocide.html)

    I am glad most people found the article and its argument disgusting but it also reminded me of something even more disgusting.

    Consider this, many living in Western or Secular nations would unequivocally condemn genocide against any population, including myself. Yet what is this based on? At least in my case, it is based on the fact that at a very fundamental level, I work under a moral framework in which genocide is defined as immoral. I am going to assume the reasoning is similar for other secular-minded people.

    Yet the question is whether the belief that "genocide is morally unjustifiable" is a universal belief? (For the sake of argument, let us ignore the dictators of the world as outliers even though they are not)

    Are there "normal" human beings who believe committing a genocide can be morally justified. I just realized there are; in fact they are a significant majority among the human population. They are, of course, the glorious religious descendants of the legendary Abraham. They are our Jews, our Christians, our Muslims and whoever has spawned afterwards.

    Let us start with Abraham himself; what is he glorified for? For being willing to slaughter his own son as per God's command.

    More than piety and faith, that religious folks usually attribute to Abraham, there is a more important and dangerous lesson to be found here. Consider the following quote;

    Quote
    "A famous example here is Kierkegaard (1813-55). In Fear and Trembling he considers the biblical story of Abraham being told by God to sacrifice Isaac (Genesis 22). He says that Abraham was bound to do what God commanded. 'Here', he adds, 'there can be no question of ethics in the sense of morality ... Ordinarily speaking, a temptation is something which tries to stop a man from doing his duty', but in the case, it is ethics itself which tries to prevent him from doing God's will. But what then is duty?" ~ Brian Davies 2000. Philosophy of Religion: A guide and Athology. Oxford University Press. pg 637


    We are used to seeing ethics/morality as some kind of fundamental reality when in fact it has more in common with abstract concepts or virtues. Our moral intuition tells us that something either has to be moral or immoral; yet it becomes difficult to conceive that before that even occurs morality is something that can be accepted or abandoned.

    From the story of Abraham, it is clear what the Abrahamic god wants us to do. When he demands submission, he isn't merely referring to us sacrificing material pleasures and vices, but he also wants us to sacrifice our moral intuitions.

    Philosophers have given this moral (or anti-moral) framework a name and it is called Divine Command Theory. It holds that whatever God commands is the rightful action.

    With no surprise, this is what Judeo-Christian philosophers use to provide justification for the genocides committed by the Hebrews as told in the Old Testament. For example, see these articles by William Lane Craig.
    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/did-god-commit-atrocities-in-the-old-testament
    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites

    Upon further reflection, one would also come to the conclusion that Muslims also have to work under the same theory. They are also told the same story of Abraham and his willingness to slaughter a child. Additionally, we are told the story of Khidr who murders a boy with  justification that if he grows up he will be disobedient to his parents. There are also verses in the Quran that claim that Israelites were chosen by Allah in the older times which one could read into that Allah also permits the genocides committed by Hebrews.

    More strikingly, in all 3 religions, we are told about the stories of Noah and Lot where God himself destroys entire populations with natural disasters. Muslims also have the stories of Salih, Hud etc where God once again annihilates entire populations, sometimes  for a reason as asinine as eating a she-camel in disobedience.

    Now in all the latter cases, would it really have made a difference if, instead of Natural disasters, God decided to sent foot soldiers and murder every man, woman and child. Wouldn't these Abrahamics still be using the same justification for such a Genocide?

    And there you have it, the Muslims and the Jews complain about oppression and terrorism and yet both groups hold that Genocide is morally justifiable if done for God ...

    Should anyone really be surprised that the place is such a stinking hole?

    P.S. To think the world's problems are the result of ancient fables from the desert... what a tragedy?

    (Also posted here - http://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/2cfpzt/is_a_palestinian_genocide_morally_justifiable/)
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #1 - August 03, 2014, 02:56 PM

    Can anyone help me out on how to add hyperlinks?
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #2 - August 03, 2014, 03:19 PM

    I always thought that story about Khidr was horrible. Murdering the boy because he would be horrible to his parents and God wanted to give them a good child.

    Here's an idea God - just give them a good child and no-one has to kill anyone.

    Imagine that happened to you. Your child was murdered. Imagine the pain and suffering that would cause you. Then God tells you:

    "Good News! I killed him!... Yes, it was me! Ahaha... BUT I did it because he was going to be BAD... I mean really bad and it would have really upset you. I mean you are OK with that?"
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #3 - August 03, 2014, 03:21 PM

    Can anyone help me out on how to add hyperlinks?


    Not sure why you can't post links. Maybe you haven't reached enough posts.
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #4 - August 03, 2014, 04:05 PM


    I am glad most people found the article and its argument disgusting but it also reminded me of something even more disgusting.

    Consider this, many living in Western or Secular nations would unequivocally condemn genocide against any population, including myself. Yet what is this based on? At least in my case, it is based on the fact that at a very fundamental level, I work under a moral framework in which genocide is defined as immoral. I am going to assume the reasoning is similar for other secular-minded people.

    Yet the question is whether the belief that "genocide is morally unjustifiable" is a universal belief? (For the sake of argument, let us ignore the dictators of the world as outliers even though they are not)

    Are there "normal" human beings who believe committing a genocide can be morally justified. I just realized there are; in fact they are a significant majority among the human population. They are, of course, the glorious religious descendants of the legendary Abraham. They are our Jews, our Christians, our Muslims and whoever has spawned afterwards.

    Let us start with Abraham himself; what is he glorified for? For being willing to slaughter his own son as per God's command.

    More than piety and faith, that religious folks usually attribute to Abraham, there is a more important and dangerous lesson to be found here. Consider the following quote;

    We are used to seeing ethics/morality as some kind of fundamental reality when in fact it has more in common with abstract concepts or virtues. Our moral intuition tells us that something either has to be moral or immoral; yet it becomes difficult to conceive that before that even occurs morality is something that can be accepted or abandoned.


    Morality to me is simply being okay with having what I'd do to others done to me. It's often referred to as the golden rule; a simple concept and a basis of morality that I believe is adopted(in a biased manner) by lots of ancient cultures, religions, as well as being the basis for lots of universal laws. (i.e. I don't want to be killed so I have no interest in killing another person)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

    I always thought that story about Khidr was horrible. Murdering the boy because he would be horrible to his parents and God wanted to give them a good child.

    Here's an idea God - just give them a good child and no-one has to kill anyone.

    Imagine that happened to you. Your child was murdered. Imagine the pain and suffering that would cause you. Then God tells you:

    "Good News! I killed him!... Yes, it was me! Ahaha... BUT I did it because he was going to be BAD... I mean really bad and it would have really upset you. I mean you are OK with that?"


    That story had so many fallacies. Why not simply guide the young man to him, like he bragged he could for so many verses? Are we just ignoring the fact that changing something because of definite foresight has the potential to change the future in an infinite amount of ways? What about the obvious fallacy in co-existing in a timeline while having the ability to foresee everything along that timeline as well as intervening to change the future? Why not smite the evil king who was taking ships by force rather than damage the people's ship? Moses sat through the ship of poor people getting destroyed and the young man being killed but finally snapped when Khidr wouldn't take payment for fixing a wall?

    Holy fuck the Qur'an is stupid

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #5 - August 03, 2014, 11:42 PM

    Yet the question is whether the belief that "genocide is morally unjustifiable" is a universal belief? (For the sake of argument, let us ignore the dictators of the world as outliers even though they are not)

    Are there "normal" human beings who believe committing a genocide can be morally justified. I just realized there are; in fact they are a significant majority among the human population. They are, of course, the glorious religious descendants of the legendary Abraham. They are our Jews, our Christians, our Muslims and whoever has spawned afterwards.

    I'm quite sure there have been people who advocated genocide even though they were not members of Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

    Also, how are you choosing to define "genocide"? Taking an excerpt from Abood's link this morning:

    Quote
    The Genocide Convention defines genocide as any of a number acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.”

    These acts are:

        Killing members of the group;
        Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
        Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
        Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
        Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    Obviously some of those definitions are going to conflict with other aspects of international law. For example, if your intent is to destroy the group in part, because part of the racial/ethnic group is conducting a paramilitary campaign and you are going to have to kill some of them, then by strict reading of the above this would be genocide. However, under other conventions it would be legitimate action.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #6 - August 04, 2014, 12:13 AM

    Everyone thinks they know what Morality sort of means. But without giving a proper definition this thread is meaningless. I suppose Morality defones what is right and wrong, but then how do you determine whether something is right ( or wrong)

    I heard it said the ancients considered might to be right
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #7 - August 04, 2014, 12:22 AM

    Quote
    I heard it said the ancients considered might to be right


    The Ancients? Are you a Stargate Atlantis fan too?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_%28Stargate%29



    I know what you're thinking. I would too.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #8 - August 04, 2014, 12:27 AM

    Everyone thinks they know what Morality sort of means. But without giving a proper definition this thread is meaningless.


    I thought one of the main 'goals' of this thread was to define the different interpretations of morality?

    I know what you're thinking. I would too.

    Astaghfurullah brother Jedi

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #9 - August 04, 2014, 12:38 AM

    I think it was the ancient Greeks who were described in that way.

    I think morality is not a good word in these circumstances as it is too vague. The question is, will the current actions of the Israealis result in a favourable outcome for them in the long term?

    For I think this is best criteria by which to judge behaviour.
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #10 - August 04, 2014, 12:42 AM

    Define 'Favourable'?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #11 - August 04, 2014, 03:28 AM

    Can anyone help me out on how to add hyperlinks?

    captndisguise  How are you doing ..

     Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?.. Off course not..   No Genocide is justifiable? No killing of any innocent defenseless people is justifiable?

    Now how to hyperlink  you read this link .,

      So you started a thread on Palestinian Genocide ., I wonder whether you could put out some information on

    How many TOTAL  Palestinians were  killed  by  Jews   since the birth of that state Israel,,,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #12 - August 04, 2014, 02:21 PM

    well if u worship a deity who carries out global genocides like noahs flood and derive your objective moral code from that deity then of course genocide is justifiable to you
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #13 - August 04, 2014, 02:44 PM

    I always thought that story about Khidr was horrible. Murdering the boy because he would be horrible to his parents and God wanted to give them a good child.


    me too! I remember in Islamic studies class, a girl in my class called him stupid and got in trouble. HA!

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #14 - August 04, 2014, 03:07 PM

    Hmm, I don't get this. Genocide is wrong because killing innocents is wrong. It's not morally ambiguous at all unless you're a sociopath. And genocide has little (nothing?) to do with religion. 
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #15 - August 04, 2014, 03:55 PM

    genocide has little (nothing?) to do with religion. 

    eh...I agree with serpentofeden, at least in Islam, while the term 'genocide' might not be there, the idea very much exists in abundance. The Qur'an has a huge amount of stories that ends with 'Allah' essentially mass killing an entire village/city/country/region. Oh was the prophet too shit to convince you of my existence? Np, have a hurricane/earthquake/eruption/tsunami/etc...

    The idea that an entire group should be punished for an individual's actions or the actions of their ancestors does very much exist in Islam scriptures.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #16 - August 04, 2014, 04:04 PM

    the word genocide was created after the holocaust.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #17 - August 04, 2014, 04:08 PM

    ^I wouldnt be surprised Jila

    Funny how people have freedom of expression in the west, but disagree with holocaust history and you're going straight in front of a judge.
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #18 - August 04, 2014, 04:13 PM

    it actually was made after the holocaust i didn't make that up.


    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #19 - August 04, 2014, 04:18 PM

    I'm missing half of this conversation, but you always crack me up, Jila. Grin
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #20 - August 04, 2014, 04:26 PM

    For some reason, I always thought the word genocide was actually coined after the Armenian genocide.

    @xtremestr

    Yeah, but Allah doesn't command Muslims to commit genocide. It's like how there was incest between Adam and Eve's kids but incest is not allowed in Islam. And most recent genocides have had little to do with religion. 
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #21 - August 04, 2014, 04:27 PM

    ^I wouldnt be surprised Jila

    Funny how people have freedom of expression in the west, but disagree with holocaust history and you're going straight in front of a judge.

    False.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #22 - August 04, 2014, 04:47 PM

    ^How so?
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #23 - August 04, 2014, 05:03 PM

    That's not "the West", it's only limited to certain European countries where they're overly sensitive about the holocaust. It's not true for North America, Australia/NZ and even a lot of Europe. 
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #24 - August 04, 2014, 05:07 PM

    ^How so?

    You made a false statement. You will not be hauled into the dock to stand trial before a judge if you question/deny the history of the holocaust in "the West".

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #25 - August 04, 2014, 10:38 PM

    Right. We have more effective methods of dealing with that. We just regard them as fuckwits. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #26 - August 04, 2014, 11:37 PM

    Everyone thinks they know what Morality sort of means. But without giving a proper definition this thread is meaningless. I suppose Morality defones what is right and wrong, but then how do you determine whether something is right ( or wrong)

    I heard it said the ancients considered might to be right


    In the context of my post, I am referring to our moral intuitions which is what, for most part, guides people to do what they do. The intuitions may be different and may be "wrong" but it nevertheless exists.

    For the Abrahamic religions, it is teaching us to give up moral intuitions for God. If Abraham refused to sacrifice his son, what would have been his sin? What would be stopping him from carrying out this action? What trait is causing him to be disobedient?

    In other stories, it is arrogance, greed or lust that is blamed for the disobedience of individuals. But what would have been blamed in the case of Abraham. That he loves his son? I think it is something far deeper. I think it is our very basic moral intuition that would have been blamed. The point of Abrahamic religions then is to submit absolutely to God which includes the sacrifice of our moral intuitions.

    This is why the actually religious folks cannot accept Secularism since the latter is an ideology built on the basis of universalizing human intuitions. Religious folks are taught to see that as something inferior or ungodly.
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #27 - August 04, 2014, 11:41 PM

    captndisguise  How are you doing ..

     Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?.. Off course not..   No Genocide is justifiable? No killing of any innocent defenseless people is justifiable?



    I didn't say that wasn't the case. Just pointing out that there are major groups of people who believe that an entire population (who we would define as innocent and defenseless) can be wiped off.
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #28 - August 04, 2014, 11:44 PM

    the word genocide was created after the holocaust.


    http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=genocide

    That is interesting! I wonder if people in the middle ages or before had a similar concept or did they even care when entire groups of people went missing from the face of the planet.
  • Is a Palestinian Genocide morally justifiable?
     Reply #29 - August 05, 2014, 12:43 AM

    William Lane Craig justifying Biblical genocide

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc

    dawah boys inspiration ^^^

    (including justification of killing of babies and children)

    2011 article from Dawkins saying why he refuses to debate with Lane Craig because of his apologia for Biblical genocide

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/20/richard-dawkins-william-lane-craig?CMP=twt_gu


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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