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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate

 (Read 9849 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     OP - August 04, 2014, 02:59 AM

    I have been thinking this for the past few days. The Bible mostly relies on myths to explain things about this world but the Quran actually uses scientific stuff known in those days. I know they are wrong but those were the stuff that were held to be true at that time. But it seems weird that during a time when the Arabs weren't much concerned about science, Muhammad included some verses of scientific stuff in the Quran.

    To me he was a very cunning and shrewd man. I think he had it planned all along that he would start a new religion to gain power. I assume that during his time the people around the world have started to get interested in science so he mixed it along with miracles plagiarised from the Bible to start his new religion, and to lend credibility to the Quran that it is divine.

    If my postulation is correct, I do wonder where did he learn his scientific stuff from?
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #1 - August 04, 2014, 03:06 AM

    I have been thinking this for the past few days. The Bible mostly relies on myths to explain things about this world but the Quran actually uses scientific stuff known in those days. I know they are wrong but those were the stuff that were held to be true at that time. But it seems weird that during a time when the Arabs weren't much concerned about science, Muhammad included some verses of scientific stuff in the Quran.

    To me he was a very cunning and shrewd man. I think he had it planned all along that he would start a new religion to gain power. I assume that during his time the people around the world have started to get interested in science so he mixed it along with miracles plagiarised from the Bible to start his new religion, and to lend credibility to the Quran that it is divine.

    If my postulation is correct, I do wonder where did he learn his scientific stuff from?

    No...no.. Nah., He or his multiple characters may have been cunning and shrewd but Muhammad/s didn't write Quran ., Quran was written way after his death. and most of it is Plagiarized from ever religion/religious story that was around Arabia.,   if there are few words from him in it ,  they are all about 4 wives, distribution of family wealth.,  may be about praying allah and how to divorce wives.. That is all what he said... So I can not blame Muhammad/s for what is there in Quran..

     Rest is copy/pasted by the writers of Quran..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #2 - August 04, 2014, 11:14 AM

    He was a trader, how the hell do Muslims think he managed that without being able to write. For real. He would have needed to be able to read and count in order to trade women for camels and whatnot. I just think they needed to ascribe a miracle to him, as there are no Mo-Miracles in the Quran and Muslims yet again had to copy Christians and come up with their own. Bit thin, I reckon.

    I believe that what is more likely is other people reading a book/ speaking to Jews and Christians who had knowledge of the now-proved-flawed science from ancient Greece, which if I remember correctly has many parallels to good old Quranic science. And then adding it to their book as if the sight of the sun rising is 'clear proof' and all that lark.

    Peace lol.

    Don't damn me when I speak my mind, 'cause silence isn't golden when I'm holding it inside. - Guns n' Roses

    3 koiraa 1 kissa <3
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #3 - August 04, 2014, 11:17 AM

    Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 65:

    "Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet"

    A fine trick, that.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #4 - August 04, 2014, 11:35 AM

    I believe the rumor is that he wasn't literate by the time he got married to Khadijah. But, even if we suppose that was true, which I think it might very well be, the time that Muhammad and Khadijah spent together pre-'revelation' was extremely long. I don't have the numbers on me but I THINK it was OVER 10 years; during which they both abandoned their polytheistic beliefs and took interest in Judaism and Christianity. Only a couple of years after they adopted monotheistic beliefs did Muhammad suddenly turn into Jesus Christ 2.

    Even if we were to assume that Muhammad was NEVER literate(which is false, he probably got taught how to read/write by Khadijah at least in order to do decently in the trade business); there is no difficulty in believing that Khadijah simply told him of stories from the bible and the Torah during their monotheistic period, or even while he was a prophet. After all, she is the one who convinced him that he was a prophet.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #5 - August 04, 2014, 11:39 AM

    Sure they were polytheists?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #6 - August 04, 2014, 11:44 AM

    It is extremely likely that Muhammad was a polytheist. For a person who became a super strict monotheist he had no problems handling objects that were worshipped and revered by the polytheist i.e. the black stone of the Kaba.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #7 - August 04, 2014, 11:46 AM

    Sure they were polytheists?


    Yes, to my knowledge, Muhammad was quite a devout polytheist for a period of his life, but one night he stopped believing in polytheism.

    Also, as Jedi pointed out, lots of things are taken from polytheistic traditions.

    Fun story which I'm not sure is true: In one of the first wars one of the polytheist commanders shouts "Kon kabeeran ya Hubal*!"(Be big Hubal!) so Muhammad responding by shouting-and encouraging his men to shout- "Allahu akbar!"(Allah is greater). The story makes sense as to why "Allahu Akbar" seem to be comparing Allah to other god(s)

    *An Arabian god

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #8 - August 04, 2014, 06:20 PM

    As I've mentioned in other posts, I think we know almost nothing about the historical Mohammed, as almost all of the sirah and hadith are fabricated.

    So ask the question by looking at the Qur'an itself, separate from the later exegetical tradition.  This is a text that repeatedly refers to itself as a "kitab."  A book.  Which is what (at one stage in its compilation) it was.  Later Muslims would try to explain this incongruity by arguing that it refers to a "heavenly book," which makes no sense whatsoever, and points out the general failure of Muslim tradition to maintain and report accurate details on the Qur'an's compilation -- when you can't explain something, argue that it means some unknown or mystical reference.

    What about illiteracy?  That's a projection of later Muslims who were trying to divorce the emergent new religion Islam from its roots in the Judaeo-Christian near east:  The Qur'an itself records people claiming that Mohammed was just copying from Jews and Christians, and trying to rebut that was a central theme of Islamic mythologizing.  Making Mohammed illiterate was a key way they argued that, even though it makes no sense whatsoever without contorted misreadings of the Qur'an (such as reading "kitab" to mean a non-real book).

    The Qur'an itself is replete with references to literacy, and it makes no sense to read it as the product of somebody illiterate, which is why Quranists commonly reject the claim:

    http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/new_information/muhammad_%28P1259%29.html

    http://submission.org/Claim_of_Muhammads_illiteracy.html

    I disagree with the Quranists on much, but on this they are correct -- taking the Qur'an by itself without the later tendentious Muslim tradition, it is hardly possible to take seriously the proposition that the Qur'an purports to be anything other than a book written in a relatively literate environment.  In this, of course, I reject the traditional Muslim account of the Qur'an's nature and alleged origins in the 'pagan Hijaz.'
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #9 - August 04, 2014, 08:50 PM

    Let me refer you to what I consider a pretty gilt-edged argument against Mo's illiteracy which I posted on another forum:

    http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7227&highlight=#155434
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #10 - August 04, 2014, 09:18 PM

    Let me refer you to what I consider a pretty gilt-edged argument against Mo's illiteracy which I posted on another forum:

    http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7227&highlight=#155434

    hmm  I didn't know that   Kodanshi Likes  Usama Dakdok..........



    http://vimeo.com/56027179

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #11 - August 04, 2014, 09:48 PM

    ^ The hell are you on about?
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #12 - August 04, 2014, 09:55 PM

    looking at the Qur'an itself, separate from the later exegetical tradition.  This is a text that repeatedly refers to itself as a "kitab."  A book.  Which is what (at one stage in its compilation) it was.


    Yes. after it's 'compilation' it became a book. A haphazardly cobbled together book.

    We must be careful though - Qur'an in  its strictest sense means 'recitation' or 'that which is to be recited'. It does not refer to itself as a book in the sense of what we consider a book to be - a phsyical bound copy of scripture - which is mushaf. As the Quran was dip fed to Mo or by Mo in stages and used as a rhetorical device in the kahin style and later developed in to a more fluid prose style, it still contained all the hallmarks of spoken word. The Qur'an was thing to be heard and recited, but not expected to be written never mind bound in a single text.

    The Qur'an should, as German scholar Michael Marx points out, must be viewed as a dialogue - a'living text' - in which collections of Muhammad's sayings and speeches are gathered together as best they could be remembered. If this is so, the why does it refer to itself as 'kitab' when it clearly isn't? 1) Appeal to supernatural superiority and inimitability. That is to say the full, incorruptible divine speech of God is in Heaven and we have it's inferior, yet miraculous, reflection in Earth in the form of a series of recitations. 2) Competing narrative to the Judeo-Christian traditions. The Jews had the Torah and the Christians had the Bible as sacred scripture. Muhammad needed his own scripture - the Furqaan (distinction) - to challenge the other religions.

    I hope this answers the question nobody asked.
     

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #13 - August 04, 2014, 10:19 PM

    Well you raise an interesting point, Jedi.  What, exactly, does "Qur'an" even mean?  It's well accepted by scholars that it derives from the Syriac term "Qeryana", meaning "lectionary."  And what's a lectionary?  In Syriac, a ktaba d'qeryana, meaning a book that one recites from.  This use predated the Qur'an, and it did not simply mean 'oral recitation,' as later Muslims would attempt to interpret it.  It meant an ACTUAL book that one orally recites from.

    The technical use of this term, circa 630, would have meant a recitation that relates to a sacred text.  It is only the much later Muslim tradition that insists on the orality of the text as *primary.*

    I consider the Qur'an to be a composite text, reflecting input from many different authors, scribes, compilers, and redactors.  Just like virtually every other sacred text (for example, the Gospels).

    So I do not at all think there is anything complex about the Qur'an referring to itself as a "kitab."  It is because at a certain stage of compilation, it was a written text, and thus properly refers to itself as such.   No mystical divine books in heaven needed to be jammed into a text that doesn't say anything about that.  There is a debate about whether or not the Qur'an was primarily transmitted in written form at one point, without a secure oral tradition to accompany it, and I think it (or more properly its predecessor components) unquestionably was for a variety of reasons.  Here's one:  The current text appears to contain certain garbled Syriac terms that were no longer properly understood by later Muslims, of which "Qur'an" is one.  Great article from Donner on the Qur'anic term "Furqan," which is another.

    http://www.academia.edu/1013511/Quranic_Furqan

    Key point:  "The implication is that some passages of the Qur’an text must have been transmitted, at some point, only in written form without the benefit of a secure tradition of oral recitation, otherwise the misreading of Syriac ‘puqdana’ as ‘furqan’ couldnot have occurred."

    Both these terms would later be interpreted by Muslims in a way that is inconsistent with how the Qur'an uses them, and elaborate theological and mythological explanations would be developed to try to explain that.

    The point being that this was a *text*, and its recitation was derivative of its status as kitab (the real kind, a mushaf, not a heavenly magical kind).  Furthermore, in the community that recitation I think was in different phases -- an early phase, consistent with Meccan surahs, and a MUCH later Muslim phase, in late Umayyad/Abassid times, where Qur'anic recitation became a dogma, concomitant with arguments about Mohammed's alleged illiteracy.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #14 - August 04, 2014, 10:27 PM

    I must say that from my reading of the Western scholars the consensus is that much of the Koran is derived from oral traditions and only a few of the verses/suras were ever written down. Lxenburg has claimed that the quran derives from Syriac lectionary - but what was it? I must read him again - as difficult he is in expounding his views.

    Is your position a) that the Koran was written in it's entirety during the life time of Mo or b) partially written during his lifetime  or c) written after him?

    I find this topic fascinating.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #15 - August 04, 2014, 10:46 PM

    It depends on what you mean by derived.  I think the question of orality is very complex, because the Qur'an is inconsistent.  Some of the surahs are fairly 'oral' in their composition, but others (particularly those termed Medinan) bear almost no similarity to any other form of oral literature. 

    Then there is the uber-fascinating question of the Qur'an's rhyme scheme, was language(s) it was originally written in, and how they were modified.  There are several very strange things about the Qur'an's orality.  One is that Western scholars have long noticed that the Qur'an contains "strophic" structures that have been smashed, interrupted, and distorted.  In other words, portions of the Qur'an used to be much more poetic in structure than they are now, but at some point those poetic structures were later obliterated as it was recompiled.  Another is that the Qur'an's rhyme scheme reflects a dialect without Irab, meaning inflection, though Classical Arabic uses inflection.  And finally, the early Qur'an manuscripts show verse divisions which strongly indicate that short text was added to "make" it rhyme properly at some point.

    Taken altogether, this suggests a very complex textual history, in which some components with a relatively strong poetic structure were later recompiled into a much larger compilation that obliterated the poetic structure while attempting to impose its own form of rhyme order -- the only form that could be imposed on such a composite text, an end-rhyme accompanied by verse divisions.

    In other words, what you have is (a) degraded orality (strophic texts, originally highly oral in nature, that have been disrupted) with (b) faux orality (a rhyme scheme that was later imposed on non-rhyming primary texts).

    So I really think the authorship of the Qur'an is very complex, and reflects what seems to be a primitive approach that aped Syriac Christianity (reflected in Meccan surahs), which probably preexisted Mohammed to some degree and which he contributed to, as well as later recollections by different groups of people about what Mohammed said or did, as well as their own pronouncements.  All of these were in different collections which at some point were welded together into a larger core, complete with extensive scribal editing interpolations and rhyme imposition, presumably by one of the caliphs because it would have been an expensive and major project.  Then small additional surahs were collected and added to the end, and various changes made by scribes and editors.  It was not until Abd al Malik that any real stability would have emerged, to my mind.  And I do not believe that oral recitation was EVER primary for any of the Qur'an.  It was always primarily textual.  The only kinds of texts that would even arguably be consistent with true primary orality would be the kind of strophic structures that are buried and obscured in the present Qur'an.

    Btw, this primary status as written text is also why nobody ever heard of the Qur'an until the Dome of the Rock, and why until that date (695 AD) there are no Qur'anic inscriptions anywhere, Muslim or non-Muslim -- there are tons of gravestones, letters, inscriptions throughout the region, in Arabic and otherwise, tons of letters and texts written by people in the region, but none mention the Qur'an.  Why?  Because there was no Qur'an-based religion until later.  People were not reciting the Qur'an, and nobody knew any Qur'anic verses.  There were Qur'anic texts, but they were not yet promulgated as the basis for a new and distinct religion.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #16 - August 04, 2014, 10:51 PM

    I can't resist one further point:  If the Qur'an's oral recitation was allegedly so widespread and primary, what about this issue, as argued by Donner:

    "But if the “Ur-Qur’an” (or, to use a Wansbrough-friendly formulation, the eventual Qur’an and its presumed Vorlagen) arose to meet liturgical needs in the community, how can we explain the fact that the Islamic ritual prayer/salat requires strikingly little recitation of the Qur’an? Other than the fatiha, recitation of only one long or three short verses of the Qur’an is required, and selection of which verses to recite is left to the individual.28 Moreover, it is striking that Islam knows no liturgical calendar prescribing specific recitations during prayer for particular seasons of the year, such as is found in Christianity or Judaism. Certainly there is no lack of suitable episodes that one might have used as occasions for such specific liturgical readings, such as the hajj, Ramadan, laylat al-qadr, mi ‘raj, hijra, and so on. The only recitation required in ritual prayer is that of the fatiha, but many scholars (including some early Muslim ones) considered the fatiha not actually to be part of the Qur’an, but rather considered it a prayer that was added to the beginning of Qur’an codices. So the evidence seems to suggest not that the Qur’an originated as prayer liturgy, but rather that a few elements drawn from the prayer liturgy were used to embellish the Qur’an. The implication is that the Islamic prayer ritual and the Qur’an text, whatever it originally was, developed independently."

    This is consistent with what I believe to be the case, which is that the "Believers" did not engage in any widespread liturgical recitation of Qur'anic materials.  Instead their widespread use came about very late, as the Qur'an was compiled and promulgated by the Marwanids, specifically Abd al Malik.  The "Believers" had already developed their rituals and emerging identity PRIOR to the Qur'an being formed as we now know it.  In this sense, the community of Believers (and early caliphs always referred to them as such, not "Muslims" or "Islam") postdated Mohammed but preceded the Qur'an.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #17 - August 04, 2014, 10:55 PM

    Brilliant. Yes, I was reading the work of a scholar who wrote an article about strophic structures which featured in a compilation. He appears to be the only scholar I've come across that mentions it. Also, with regards to the Medinan verses I've heard the argument that some Meccan verses may have been inserted in the longer texts either because the composers genuinely did not know where the verses belonged or whether or not they thought it fit in with the theme. There could also be a litarary motive to it in terms of 'creating' rhymes and rhythm.

    The composition of the text makes it very hard to determine this and there are no definitive answers. Divine revelation my foot!

    Do you have Skype, I'd love to chat with you about this and share information.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #18 - August 04, 2014, 11:52 PM

    But it seems weird that during a time when the Arabs weren't much concerned about science, Muhammad included some verses of scientific stuff in the Quran.


    This is just false. What is your definition of "scientific stuff"?

    Are the following sentences "scientific"? - 'Look at the Sky, it is so beautiful', 'Look at the Stars, they are so shiny'

    If those sentences aren't scientific then neither are the verses in the Qur'an. If they are scientific then just about any empirical sentence can be said to be scientific in which case the term is meaningless.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #19 - August 05, 2014, 01:45 AM

    The "Believers" had already developed their rituals and emerging identity PRIOR to the Qur'an being formed as we now know it.  In this sense, the community of Believers (and early caliphs always referred to them as such, not "Muslims" or "Islam") postdated Mohammed but preceded the Qur'an.

    Michael Cook talks about this in one of his books too. He mentions it in the context of things like stoning for adultery, despite it not being in the qur'an, suggests that the qur'an was 'out of circulation', as it were, and (re)surfaced only after believers had established their practices.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #20 - August 05, 2014, 02:14 PM

    This is just false. What is your definition of "scientific stuff"?

    Are the following sentences "scientific"? - 'Look at the Sky, it is so beautiful', 'Look at the Stars, they are so shiny'

    If those sentences aren't scientific then neither are the verses in the Qur'an. If they are scientific then just about any empirical sentence can be said to be scientific in which case the term is meaningless.



    For instance embryology and number of planets in the solar system.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #21 - August 05, 2014, 02:52 PM

    Topic discussed here is fascinating, I've always had doubts about Mohammed's illiteracy, but I have never considered Khadijah may have been the one manipulating him. If so she may be one of the one of the most intelligent women in history.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #22 - August 05, 2014, 03:35 PM

    There were alot of intelligent woman during his time, khadija, aisha
    lots of things aisha managed to get away with  Wink

    "Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to."
    هذا من فضل جدي
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #23 - August 05, 2014, 03:42 PM

    Of course, no doubt about it, however to create a religion for power and succeed is pretty damn impressive.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #24 - August 05, 2014, 04:47 PM

    I have never considered Khadijah may have been the one manipulating him.

    How was she manipulating him?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #25 - August 05, 2014, 04:59 PM

    For instance embryology and number of planets in the solar system.


    ?  What do you mean number of planets?

    There are eight planets in the solar system.  Nowhere does the Qur'an say there are eight planets.

    The Qur'an does say (12:4) that Joseph dreamt that eleven planets were bowing down to him.  But this is because Joseph was *one of twelve brothers*, the Jewish ancestors of the twelve tribes of Israel, and he was dreaming the future in which his brothers would bow down to him.  This was not scientific, it was Jewish folkore relating to the twelve tribes of Israel.  The Qur'an is talking about how it is an Arabic language explanation of the meaning of these narratives, which its listeners are already familiar with.

    http://quran.com/12/1-7

    What that anecdote DOES show is that the author(s) of the Qur'an were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, citing this particular story, and those to whom the Qur'an was read were likewise already familiar with them.  Later Muslims, who knew much less about the Torah (since the Qur'an was now allegedly its superior, rather than an explanation/lectionary), didn't have a good understanding of WHY the number 11 was used in this aya.  Why?  Well, you'd have to know the Biblical background of this aya:  Genesis 37:5-10:

    5.  Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.”

    8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.

    9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

    10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

    Contrary to later Muslim tradition which claimed that the Qur'an was delivered to pagan polytheists (by ignoring its Biblical context), Surah 12 is directed at people who are already familiar with this theological Jewish narrative -- which has NOTHING to do with science but rather everything to do with the twelve tribes of Israel and Joseph's story -- and is explaining its meaning in an Arabic language.  The author(s) of the Qur'an were highly literate in the religious texts and folklore of the Judaeo-Christian Near East.  But they knew nothing of science.
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #26 - August 05, 2014, 05:01 PM

    There were alot of intelligent woman during his time, khadija, aisha
    lots of things aisha managed to get away with  Wink

    hello kulay .. Aisha was not women When Khaija was alive....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #27 - August 05, 2014, 05:20 PM

    For instance embryology and number of planets in the solar system.


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=7031.60
    http://againstscience.com/2009/08/31/quran-correctly-categorized-11-planets-while-science-just-caught-up/
    http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/06/re-how-many-planets-in-solar-system.html

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #28 - August 05, 2014, 05:36 PM

    Yeez...after reading all that bullshit how do you not want to smash your head against the brick wall? Jedi seeks your secret.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Muhammad Wasn't Illiterate
     Reply #29 - August 05, 2014, 05:50 PM

    How was she manipulating him?

    It's just a thought I have, When Muhammad went to his usual cave,  he thought he had seen something. (I'm assuming he had some mental illness) anyway it was Khadijah who convinced him it was a message from God, and she taught him all about Jews and Christians and maybe he came to the conclusion he was the last Prophet.

    This does make some sense after all, Khadijah was a very successful merchant, who had a lot of power and respect, clearly you would want more. This would also explain why after her death, the verses in the Qur'an became more violent not only because of the ridicule and stoning he received but also because she may have been the restraint on his more violent nature.
    Also it would explain why he never moved on after her death.

    Or the simple explanation is that she came up with the idea first and they both created the myth that he is the last Prophet so they could have power and respect.

    Either way in both theories Khadijah is a genius.




    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
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