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Theme Changer

 Topic: Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!

 (Read 24154 times)
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  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #90 - August 05, 2014, 06:01 PM
    I dont think we can really talk about 'Semitic religions' as we know very little about them (atleast I do) other than the Abrahamic faiths. I do think I have a good understanding though of IE religion as we can compare many different and diverse ideas/religions.

    For instance Greek mythology, hinduism, vedic, Nordic etc all have their differences, however there are a lot of things they have in common. We get a idea of historical development in the different branches. Those ideas that are predominant in IE branches but not others, can with good reason and additional investigation, be considered IE. The terms are vague but not nonsensical.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #91 - August 05, 2014, 06:04 PM
    I think focusing on alleged commonalities tends to blind us to the genius of these different religious developments, which is not what they have in common ... it's their specifics.

    If you are interested, my favorite living fiction writer, Roberto Calasso, has written several books that are almost impossibly good about Vedic/Hindu religion and Greek mythology.  I consider him a true genius.  Here's a couple links.  The first is the best book about Hindu religion ever written.  The second is the best book about Greek mythology ever written.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FUZQYPU/ref=s9_simh_gw_p351_d0_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1VS1FM7KMF7JFDPT72GK&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HBQUHA4/ref=s9_simh_gw_p351_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1VS1FM7KMF7JFDPT72GK&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #92 - August 05, 2014, 06:07 PM
    Some good reviews, though I am not really into non-fiction these days. Will take a closer look anyway at some of the themes.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #93 - August 05, 2014, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on August 05, 2014, 05:14 PM
    If you're serious then fuck off you troll. Nobody is born noble. We are all born kicking and screaming with no divine plan and there is no fate only circumstances.  grin12


    If this site had a rep or thumbs up option you'd have mine for saying this.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #94 - August 05, 2014, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 04:53 PM
    "The nobly born must nobly meet his fate"


    What is it to be nobly born?
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #95 - August 05, 2014, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 05:19 PM
    Noble=having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles


    I would say quoting this eugenicist, Nazi author who helped build the case for the most wicked & repulsive ideology of the modern age - shows a distinct lack of fine personal qualities and moral principles.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #96 - August 05, 2014, 06:33 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 05:25 PM
    if for whatever reason I get banned, then I will accept it nobly.


     Cheesy Oh puh... lease spare us  Cheesy   Are you like 12 or something?

    "I will accept it nobly... Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer. The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune, Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,... Cheesy

    Cheesy Cheesy
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #97 - August 05, 2014, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 05, 2014, 06:27 PM
    I would say quoting this eugenicist, Nazi author who helped build the case for the most wicked & repulsive ideology of the modern age - shows a distinct lack of fine personal qualities and moral principles.


    "The nobly born must nobly meet his fate"  is a quote from Euripides, a Greek playright.

    I already stated what I consider its meaning.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #98 - August 05, 2014, 06:41 PM
    People dont consider noble behaviour to be a great thing. I think it's a shame.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #99 - August 05, 2014, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 05, 2014, 06:27 PM
    I would say quoting this eugenicist, Nazi author who helped build the case for the most wicked & repulsive ideology of the modern age - shows a distinct lack of fine personal qualities and moral principles.


    I am not quoting him in the sense that he is genius and everyting he says must be true. I am simply presenting his perspective on religious ideas. I told you he was a racist so you will take that into account when reading it.

    Honestly I didnt know how prominent he was as I hadnt even looked him up. Some of his ideas were far-fetched and dubious but much of what he wrote was consistent with the knowledge I had on the subject from other investigations.

    You should play the ball not the man.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #100 - August 05, 2014, 07:19 PM
    Who am I kidding with this ignore business? I feel like I'm missing out. I wish I knew how to quit you, mubs.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #101 - August 05, 2014, 07:39 PM
    You wont have to once I get banned!
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #102 - August 05, 2014, 07:41 PM
    Do you want to get banned mubs?
    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #103 - August 05, 2014, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 06:41 PM
    People dont consider noble behaviour to be a great thing. I think it's a shame.


    Are you for real? C'mon, you are just trolling - right?

    Well just in case you actually didn't understand - I was not making fun of noble behaviour. I'm laughing at what a bloody drama queen you are. This is an internet forum FFS!!

    mubs: "Ahh woe is me, for I must take my banning with noble spirit and mind, 'tis a fate I must face with the courage of one of noble birth!" (Hand held wistfully over forehead.)

    Executioner: (Gruff common-man's voice) "Now sir a man of your breeding don't want a messy execution does he, sir? Slip me a few shekels... erm I mean some good Aryan money, and I'll see to it that your 'ed will come off in one clean swoop."

    mubs; Alas I have not penny-farthing to my name - the damned communists at CEMB took all I had in the name of "progressive liberalism" - damn them and their inferior lack of a god. Do what you must do, executioner, for I shall bear it nobly and shall be remembered as one of good breeding and heroic fortitude.



  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #104 - August 05, 2014, 08:27 PM
    Jedi finds this amusing   Cheesy
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #105 - August 05, 2014, 08:30 PM
    I think this guy is having us on.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #106 - August 05, 2014, 08:31 PM
    Haha very funny Abu
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #107 - August 05, 2014, 08:37 PM
    Drama queen, me? I remember it was you who had a fit at the beginning.

    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 05, 2014, 12:06 PM
    Tell you what mubs, how about you shove this book and your views on race right up your arse till it goes 'click'.


    All you had to say was something along the lines of "He is a racist and I dont trust his views", something like

    Quote from: Jedi on August 05, 2014, 12:56 PM
    Im sure mubsy that whatever points you wanted to make about the religious experiences of the Indo-Europeans could've been better made with a reference to a book not written by an utter and complete wanker.

    Just what wisdom did you seek to accrue from this outdated piece of shit?

  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #108 - August 05, 2014, 08:42 PM
    I think mubs is a racist and I don't trust his views.

    I love Jedi  Cheesy

    Allat, I call upon thee to damn this thread. Damn it all to the Rant arena.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #109 - August 05, 2014, 08:46 PM
    Ok, Abu can we call a truce for now and get back on track pls..


    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 05, 2014, 02:55 PM
    1. Meeting fate with courage. Whether this is truly a value of the Indo-European people is far from definite since we actually know so little about - but let's assume it is - tell me what religion, ideology, view or whatever - does not advocate this? The Abrahamic religions which you seem to think are so inferior to these Indo-European religious values - are no different in this respect.


    Considering how the Abrahamic views aim to use the fear of the death to keep its hold on followers is a good and simple example. IE religions dont have this idea of a lovely, happy heaven and that god will 'take care' of death for the believers. I have noticed that the fear of the death/the unknown is central to a Muslim's/Christian's faith, if they question their faith, that is what ther fear most.

    What's interesting about the IE world-views is that they dont try to invent a fantasy around death to make that easier. Atleast there isn't an idea that is central to the world-view and spans the different branches.



    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 05, 2014, 02:55 PM
    2. Truth/Reason - What truth and reason is contained in believing in the Hindu Gods, Nordic Gods, Greek Gods etc...?



    Reason and Truth are closely related so I will treat them as one. In Vedic Rta is a central idea which can be translated as Truth, Eternal Law, Existence, well-formed etc. What's interesting is that this concept is more important and more powerful than any god. The gods are secondary and 'everything', including them, is subject to Rta.

    The greeks had something similar called Logos. The Persian equivalent was Arta though that does not have the full meaning of Rta.

    IE religions being polytheistic, tend not to revolved around gods, but something more universal such as Truth, Reality, Destiny etc.

    IE religions do not have a dichotomy between Science and Religion. They are both talking about the same thing, Reality. As there are no 'revealed' texts in IE religions (atleast non taken literally) there is nothing against science, unlike the Abrahamic faiths that both have had major problems with scientific research. Notice how there was not religios impediment to The Greeks when they 'began' western civilization.


    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 05, 2014, 02:55 PM
    3. A relationship with God not based on fear - Which God/gods is that? Please be specific? Is it Zuess? Vishnu? Thor?  Are you saying you have a relationship with one of them that is not based on fear? Does he share his cream doughnuts with you or what? Could you please explain how this relationship works?


    I havent myself seen in any IE religion a god punishes those that do not worship him or worship someone else. I believe this is universal in the Abrahamic faiths. Fear of the punishment of god keeps many Abrahamics from considering the weaknesses in their religion.

    IE worship for many reasons, fear or punishment for non-worship is not one of them.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #110 - August 05, 2014, 08:49 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 08:37 PM
    Drama queen, me? I remember it was you who had a fit at the beginning.

    All you had to say was something along the lines of "He is a racist and I dont trust his views", something like



    Oh dear! Poor ickle wickle mubsy wubsy  Cry

    Oh then again shoving this nasty little book right up your arse is so much more closer to what it deserves - don't you think, Noble Sire?
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #111 - August 05, 2014, 08:52 PM
    Abu you win ok.

    But I responded to your questions.

  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #112 - August 05, 2014, 08:54 PM
    ^ But you were a day late and a dollar short! In the future, mubs, if you want an actual conversation, you might want to try to hold off on unleashing all your tangential warped world views until afterward. Once you throw all your bigotry out there, no one's going to want to come wrestle in that mud with you. Grin
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #113 - August 05, 2014, 08:57 PM
    Can we just learn from this and get on with the interesting discussion?
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #114 - August 05, 2014, 09:01 PM
    Yes, I agree Lilyesque. I wish I could delete those unecessary posts, or perhaps put the few useful ones from here into another thread.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #115 - August 05, 2014, 09:13 PM
    ^^ Mods, is it ok if i do this? Make a new thread and put (quote) the on-topic posts in there?
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #116 - August 05, 2014, 09:19 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 08:46 PM
    Considering how the Abrahamic views aim to use the fear of the death to keep its hold on followers is a good and simple example. IE religions dont have this idea of a lovely, happy heaven and that god will 'take care' of death for the believers. I have noticed that the fear of the death/the unknown is central to a Muslim's/Christian's faith, if they question their faith, that is what ther fear most.

    What's interesting about the IE world-views is that they dont try to invent a fantasy around death to make that easier. Atleast there isn't an idea that is central to the world-view and spans the different branches.


    Please be specific. There is no one Indo-European religion.

    As for there being no fantasy about death to make it easier, Valhalla for warriors who get killed in battle, springs to mind.

    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 08:46 PM
    Reason and Truth are closely related so I will treat them as one. In Vedic Rta is a central idea which can be translated as Truth, Eternal Law, Existence, well-formed etc. What's interesting is that this concept is more important and more powerful than any god. The gods are secondary and 'everything', including them, is subject to Rta.

    The greeks had something similar called Logos. The Persian equivalent was Arta though that does not have the full meaning of Rta.


    It's all well and good to talk about truth and reason - but it's meaningless if the whole basis of the religion is myths and legends.

    What do you mean by secondary - and whether secondary or not - the hindu, greek & nordic gods are just myths. They don't exist. They are not true. Period.

    Hinduism, Ancient Greek religions, Nordic religions etc... contain nothing good that can't be found elsewhere - and a lot of stupid myths and legends we don't need, and which can lead to very backward practises, such as the Hindu Caste system.

    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 08:46 PM
    I havent myself seen in any IE religion a god punishes those that do not worship him or worship someone else. I believe this is universal in the Abrahamic faiths. Fear of the punishment of god keeps many Abrahamics from considering the weaknesses in their religion.

    IE worship for many reasons, fear or punishment for non-worship is not one of them.


    That didn't answer the question. You said having this relationship with god was one of the good values you got from the book - I want to know what God you are talking about - please be specific. And do you personally have a relationship with this god or gods. And how's that working out for you?
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #117 - August 05, 2014, 09:25 PM
    "That didn't answer the question. You said having this relationship with god was one of the good values you got from the book - I want to know what God you are talking about - please be specific. And do you personally have a relationship with this god or gods. And how's that working out for you?"

    I didnt say I specifically have that relationship with any of them, because I dont. I said I learnt from the book that this is the typical IE relationship to a god, it is a typical relationship, so does not depend on the divinity in question.

  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #118 - August 05, 2014, 09:31 PM
    "What do you mean by secondary - and whether secondary or not - the hindu, greek & nordic gods are just myths. They don't exist. They are not true. Period."

    Not really, many of the divinities represent very real things, some physical, some abstract. Whether praying to them has any effect other than to oneself I dont believe. But certainly the veneration of these 'deities' does have an impact to the individual regarding their relationship to Rta (reality) through the diety as an agent.

    For instance Varuna and Mitra are divinities of natural and moral order. Mitra (meaning that-which-binds) is the divinity of contracts, oaths and friendships. Deityfication will allow people to more easily conceptualise these abstract things and develop a personal 'relationship' with them. 
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #119 - August 05, 2014, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: mubs_352 on August 05, 2014, 09:25 PM

    I didnt say I specifically have that relationship with any of them, because I dont. I said I learnt from the book that this is the typical IE relationship to a god, it is a typical relationship, so does not depend on the divinity in question.


    Well that's one of the fundamental problems with the book - it is largely making conjectures about this imagined entity called Indo-European religion that in reality doesn't exist.

    The author is fabricating his own myth - namely about the superiority of the Indo-Europeans - the Aryan race. He is doing nothing less than building the foundation of the Nazi ideology.

    If you can't see the link between the views he - and you - are expressing and the Nazi ideology, then there is seriously something wrong with you.

    Sorry but I do get emotional when I see fascist crap like this on the forum and I would prefer you either fucked off or don't post this shit here.
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