Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Today at 01:35 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Today at 01:34 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
Yesterday at 06:58 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
January 06, 2025, 09:50 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 12:03 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 11:55 AM

News From Syria
by zeca
December 28, 2024, 12:29 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
December 27, 2024, 12:20 PM

Mo Salah
December 26, 2024, 05:30 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 25, 2024, 10:58 AM

What's happened to the fo...
December 25, 2024, 02:29 AM

Berlin car crasher
by zeca
December 21, 2024, 11:10 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!

 (Read 24119 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #120 - August 05, 2014, 09:49 PM

    Can you explain how you went from this

    I didnt say I specifically have that relationship with any of them, because I dont. I said I learnt from the book that this is the typical IE relationship to a god, it is a typical relationship, so does not depend on the divinity in question.

    (btw, I didnt only learn this from the book, but found the idea expressed there coherently. It is consistent with my independant research)

    To this

    Well that's one of the fundamental problems with the book - it is largely making conjectures about this imagined entity called Indo-European religion that in reality doesn't exist.

    That doesn't make sense to me.

    Indo-European religions do exist as we still have much literature. What all of them have in common, and can be traced back to PIE (by comparing distant branches) is known as IE religion.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #121 - August 05, 2014, 09:52 PM

    For instance Varuna and Mitra are divinities of natural and moral order. Mitra (meaning that-which-binds) is the divinity of contracts, oaths and friendships. Deityfication will allow people to more easily conceptualise these abstract things and develop a personal 'relationship' with them. 


    I guess bullshit is known by many different names.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #122 - August 05, 2014, 09:59 PM

    Social/Legal Law is not bullshit, It was known as Mitra to some.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra_(Vedic)#Etymology

    "The word is derived from a root mi- "to fix, to bind" (Indo-European *Hmei), with the "tool suffix" -tra- (compare man-tra-)"

    "Vedic Mitra is the patron divinity of contracts and meetings. He is a prominent deity of the Rigveda distinguished by a relationship to Varuna, the protector of ṛtá. Together with Varuna, he counted among the chief Adityas, a group of deities with social functions. They are the supreme keepers of order and gods of the law. The next two in importance are Aryaman (who guards guest friendship and bridal exchange) and Bhaga (share in bounty, good luck)."


    To understand what they are you need only look at their names, as they are only those things they are called.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #123 - August 05, 2014, 10:05 PM

    Can you explain how you went from this

    I didnt say I specifically have that relationship with any of them, because I dont. I said I learnt from the book that this is the typical IE relationship to a god, it is a typical relationship, so does not depend on the divinity in question.

    (btw, I didnt only learn this from the book, but found the idea expressed there coherently. It is consistent with my independant research)

    To this

    Well that's one of the fundamental problems with the book - it is largely making conjectures about this imagined entity called Indo-European religion that in reality doesn't exist.

    That doesn't make sense to me.

    Indo-European religions do exist as we still have much literature. What all of them have in common, and can be traced back to PIE (by comparing distant branches) is known as IE religion.


    Because you said this:

    Quote
    I said I learnt from the book that this is the typical IE relationship to a god, it is a typical relationship


    As I say, that's one of the fundamental problems with the book. It keeps talking about this entity - typical Indo-European relationship/view/religion. But that doesn't exist. There is no Indo-European relationship... or religion... or anything...

    The author is making is conjectures about this imagined entity called Indo-European religion and people that doesn't actually exist.

    He is creating the myth of the pure Aryan race. He is arguing for the superiority of the Indo-European people - which is a myth he is helping to create.

    He is an apologist for fascism.

    And so are you.

    You are either playing stupid or you are stupid.

    Either way our conversation is over.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #124 - August 05, 2014, 10:17 PM

    You're not in very good company:

    muslimatheist
    Bigmo
    Muslima yay_yay
    mubs_352

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #125 - August 05, 2014, 10:28 PM

    Abu keeps going on about the racism but how many times can I say that this isn't about that. I've made it clear many times. He wasted so much time today and we could have talked about the comparison between the (non-existent?) IE religions and the Abrahmic ones.

    Anyways tomorrow I will try and post more on that comparison, as I think jt helps to understand the position of Islam and its relationships to other religions. I think this is interesting if not useful.

    Here the gods also dwell, so lets keep it real.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #126 - August 06, 2014, 10:41 AM

    Quote
    Here the gods also dwell, so lets keep it real.

     

    You're one stick short of a bundle,  mate.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #127 - August 06, 2014, 11:54 AM

    Abu I'm going to post more IE religion stuff here and I really dont want the thread going off-topic. The mods already acted on this so I consider the matter closed.

    If you dont like it with all due respect you dont have to read it and you can always put me on ignore.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #128 - August 06, 2014, 12:06 PM

    DESTINY


    IT is the spiritual strength of the Indo-Europeans — and this is witnessed by the great poetry of these peoples, and above all by their tragedies — to feel a deep joy in destiny — in the tension between the limitation of man and the boundlessness of the Gods.

    The eternal Gods give everything
    utterly to their favourites,
    all joys, and
    all sorrows for all eternity —
    utterly and completely.

    Never is this Indo-European joy in destiny turned into an acceptance of fate, into fatalism. When faced with the certainty of death the Indo-European remains conscious that his nature is that of the warrior. This is expressed in the Indian Bhagavad Gita (XI, 38) by the God Krishna, when he says to Arjuna: “Joy and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat, think on these things and array thyself for the battle, thus shalt thou bring no blame upon thyself”.


    For the Indo-Europeans life and belief would be feebly relaxed, if this spectacle were withdrawn in favour of a redeeming God...

    Ideas of a redemption and of redeemers have, with the peoples of Indo-European tongue, only been able to spread in the late periods and then usually only amongst Indo-Europeanised sub-stratas. When one wishes to apply a concept like redemption to the original nature of the Indo-European, one can speak at most of a self-redemption, but never of a redemption through a God-man, a demi-God or God . Such a self-liberation, attained by overcoming the desires of the self (Pali: kilesa = nibbana or tanhakkhaya, the apatheia of the Stoics) was taught by the Indian prince’s son, Siddhartha, the Wiseman with “eyes the colour of blossoming flax”,16 who later was called Buddha, the Illuminated.

    The Indo-Europeans have always tended to raise the power of destiny above that of the Gods (cf. Iliad, XV, 117; XVII, 198 ff.; XXII, 213; Odyssey, III, 236 ff.; Hesiod, Theogony, 220; Aeschylus, Prometheus, 515 ff.; Herodotus, I, 91) especially, undoubtedly, the Indians, the Hellenes and the Teutons. The Moira or aisa of the Hellenes who already appeared in Homer and Heraclitus, corresponded to the Norns of the Teutons, to the wurd (Weird, Wyrd; Scandinavian: Urd).

    An Anglo-Saxon proverb, composed by a Christian poet, holds firm to the pre-Christian outlook: “Christ is powerful, but more powerful is destiny.” Ahura Mazda, the god of the heavens of the Iranians, distributes destiny as does Zeus, the heavenly God of the Hellenes both, however, can do nothing against destiny .

    The Indo-European cannot even wish to be redeemed from the tension of his destiny-bound life. The loosening of this tension would have signified for him a weakening of his religiosity. The very fact of being bound to destiny has from the beginning proved to be the source of his spiritual existence. “The heart’s wave would not have foamed upwards so beautifully and become spirit, if the old silent rock, destiny, had not faced it.”

    The Indo-European becomes a mature man only through his life of tension before destiny. The Teutonic hero, superbly characterised by the Icelandic Sagas, loftily understands the fate meeting him as his destiny, remains upright in the midst of it, and is thus true to himself. Aeschylus (Prometheus Bound, 936) commented similarly, when he said: “Wise men are they who honour Adrasteia”, Adrasteia being a Hellenic goddess of destiny.

    The Church has attempted to displace the Indo-European idea of destiny by the idea of providence (providentia). With thinking men the attempt failed, for thinking Indo-Europeans would not accept a providence, which blindly distributes an excess of grim blows of fortune, at the same time regarding this as love and benevolence.

    It is not by dissolving the question of destiny in the idea of redemption that the Indo-European can perfect his nature — for such redemption would probably appear to him as evasion,  his nature is perfected solely through proving himself in the face of destiny. “This above all: to thine own self be true!” (Hamlet, I, 3, 78).

    The certainty of a destiny has not made the true Indo-European seek redemption, and even when his destiny caused him to tremble, he never turned to contrition or fearful awareness of “sin” . Aeschylus, who was completely permeated by Hellenic religiosity and by the power of the divine, stands upright, like every Indo-European, before the immortal Gods, and despite every shattering experience has no feeling of sin.

    Thus Indo-European religiosity is not concerned with anxiety, or self-damnation, or contrition, but with the man who would honour the divinity by standing up squarely amid the turmoil of destiny to pay him homage.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #129 - August 06, 2014, 12:20 PM

    [s]DESTINY


    IT is the spiritual strength of the Indo-Europeans — and this is witnessed by the great poetry of these peoples, and above all by their tragedies — [u]to feel a deep joy in destiny[/u] — in the tension between the limitation of man and the boundlessness of the Gods.

    The eternal Gods give everything
    utterly to their favourites,
    all joys, and
    all sorrows for all eternity —
    utterly and completely.

    Never is this Indo-European joy in destiny turned into an acceptance of fate, into fatalism. When faced with the certainty of death the Indo-European remains conscious that his nature is that of the warrior. This is expressed in the Indian Bhagavad Gita (XI, 38) by the God Krishna, when he says to Arjuna: [u] “Joy and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat, think on these things and array thyself for the battle, thus shalt thou bring no blame upon thyself”[/u].


    For the Indo-Europeans life and belief would be feebly relaxed, if this spectacle were withdrawn in favour of a redeeming God...

    Ideas of a redemption and of redeemers have, with the peoples of Indo-European tongue, only been able to spread in the late periods and then usually only amongst Indo-Europeanised sub-stratas. [u] When one wishes to apply a concept like redemption to the original nature of the Indo-European, one can speak at most of a self-redemption, but never of a redemption through a God-man, a demi-God or God [/u]. Such a self-liberation, attained by overcoming the desires of the self (Pali: kilesa = nibbana or tanhakkhaya, the apatheia of the Stoics) was taught by the Indian prince’s son, Siddhartha, the Wiseman with “eyes the colour of blossoming flax”,16 who later was called Buddha, the Illuminated.

    [u]The Indo-Europeans have always tended to raise the power of destiny above that of the Gods [/u](cf. Iliad, XV, 117; XVII, 198 ff.; XXII, 213; Odyssey, III, 236 ff.; Hesiod, Theogony, 220; Aeschylus, Prometheus, 515 ff.; Herodotus, I, 91) especially, undoubtedly, the Indians, the Hellenes and the Teutons. The Moira or aisa of the Hellenes who already appeared in Homer and Heraclitus, corresponded to the Norns of the Teutons, to the wurd (Weird, Wyrd; Scandinavian: Urd).

    An Anglo-Saxon proverb, composed by a Christian poet, holds firm to the pre-Christian outlook: “Christ is powerful, but more powerful is destiny.” Ahura Mazda, the god of the heavens of the Iranians, distributes destiny as does Zeus, the heavenly God of the Hellenes [u]both, however, can do nothing against destiny [/u].

    The Indo-European cannot even wish to be redeemed from the tension of his destiny-bound life. [u]The loosening of this tension would have signified for him a weakening of his religiosity. [/u] The very fact of being bound to destiny has from the beginning proved to be the source of his spiritual existence. “The heart’s wave would not have foamed upwards so beautifully and become spirit, if the old silent rock, destiny, had not faced it.”

    The Indo-European becomes a mature man only through his life of tension before destiny. The Teutonic hero, superbly characterised by the Icelandic Sagas, loftily understands the fate meeting him as his destiny, remains upright in the midst of it, and is thus true to himself. Aeschylus (Prometheus Bound, 936) commented similarly, when he said: “Wise men are they who honour Adrasteia”, Adrasteia being a Hellenic goddess of destiny.

    The Church has attempted to displace the Indo-European idea of destiny by the idea of providence (providentia). With thinking men the attempt failed, for thinking Indo-Europeans would not accept a providence, which blindly distributes an excess of grim blows of fortune, at the same time regarding this as love and benevolence.

    It is not by dissolving the question of destiny in the idea of redemption that the Indo-European can perfect his nature — [u]for such redemption would probably appear to him as evasion[/u],  his nature is perfected solely through proving himself in the face of destiny. “This above all: to thine own self be true!” (Hamlet, I, 3, 78).

    The certainty of a destiny has not made the true Indo-European seek redemption, and even [u] when his destiny caused him to tremble, he never turned to contrition or fearful awareness of “sin” [/u]. Aeschylus, who was completely permeated by Hellenic religiosity and by the power of the divine, stands upright, like every Indo-European, before the immortal Gods, and [u] despite every shattering experience has no feeling of sin[/u]. [/s]

    Thus Indo-European religiosity is not concerned with anxiety, or self-damnation, or contrition, but with the man who would honour the divinity by standing up squarely amid the turmoil of destiny to pay him homage.

    mubs_352 ... your post on this  Indo-European religiosity is exactly concerned with anxiety, or self-damnation. And that is what Abu Ali said in his first response to you..

    Quote
    Yes I can see why you like this book so much. We  - the superior Indo-European, Nordic, Aryan race - must fight the evils of Jazz and Negro rhythm, that seek to pollute our superior spiritual nature.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #130 - August 06, 2014, 12:41 PM

    BALANCE AND EQUILIBRIUM

    While non-Indo-European religiosity, often breaks out all the more excitedly the more a religious man loses his equilibrium , the more he is in ekstasis or outside himself, the more the Indo- European strives for equilibrium and composure.

    The Indo-European has confidence only in those spiritual powers which are to be experienced when the soul is in equilibrium, that is to say, in proportion and prudence.

    He also mistrusts all insight and knowledge and experience, which the believer acquires only in some state of excitement. It is extraordinarily characteristic of Indo-European nature, that with the Hellenes eusebeia (religiosity) and sophrosyne (prudence) are often used in the same sense. The highest attainments of Indo-European religions are only accessible to him when he has learned to master his spiritual powers in due proportion, and when he has achieved a proper sense of balance.

    Hermann Oldenberg (Buddha, edited by Helmuth von Glasenapp, 1959, p. 185) has described the peculiarity of Buddhistic religiosity as: “The equilibrium of forces, inner proportion — these are what Buddha recommends us to strive for”. Buddha himself once compared the spiritual impulses of a religious man with a lute whose strings sound most beautifully of all when they are stretched neither too loosely nor too tightly (Mahavagga, V, 1, 15-16). This and not perhaps a flaccid mediocrity is also the meaning of the aurea mediocritas of Horatius, which can be explained from the Nichomachean Ethics of Aristotle.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #131 - August 06, 2014, 12:44 PM

    REALITY, THIS WORLD VS 'THE OTHER'


    Never have Indo-Europeans imagined to become more religious when a “beyond” claimed to release them from “this world”, which was devalued to a place of sorrow, persecution and salvation — to a “beyond” to which was attributed the fullness of joys, so that a soul fleeing “this world”, must long for it all his earthly life.


    The upright man regards nothing in his nature as lower in value than deity; therefore for the Indo-Europeans there is no conflict between body and soul. This absence of conflict indeed already emanates from the will to preserve the equilibrium of the human powers, even when he conceives of the body and soul as different in essence. Yet on the whole the Indo-European has lived more in harmony of body and soul; the Teutons, for example, have always tended to regard the body as an expression of the soul. To the Indo-European, the distinction between body and soul is not stimulating, not even to religiosity.


    Thus this question has never vexed the Indo-Europeans, and they have never de-valued the body so as to value the soul more highly. Quite remote from them lies the idea that the body, addicted to this world, is a dirty prison for a soul striving out of it towards another world. Whenever the outer and inner in men are observed separately, then they are joined in the religious man in an effect of mutual equilibrium. The ideal of a healthy mind in a healthy body has become an English proverb in recent years. Indo-European religiosity is that of the soul which finds health and goodness in the world and in the body.

    Hermann Lommel (Iranische Religion, in Carl Clemen: Die Religionen der Erde, 1927, p. 146) uses the term “religiosity of this world” to characterise the Iranian (Persian) religion: “Life in this world”, he says, “offered the Iranians unbounded possibilities for the worship of God”. Goethe also, in his poem Vermächtnis altpersischen Glaubens has strikingly described the religiosity of the Iranians:

    "Daily preservation of hard services,
    No other kind of revelation is needed."

    The Indo-Europeans are truly children of this world in the sense that this world can allow the unfolding of the whole richness of their worshipping, confiding and entrusting dedication to the divine, a worshipful penetration of all aspects of this life and environment through an all embracing elevated disposition of the mind. The divine is found to be universally present, as Schiller (The Gods of Greece) has described it:

    "To the enlightened, the whole Universe
    breathes the spirit of God"

    Thus the religious forms of the Indo-Europeans have unfolded with great facility into a multiplicity of Gods, always accompanied, however, by a premonition or clear recognition that ultimately the many Gods are only names for the different aspects of the divine. In the worship of mountain heights, rivers, and trees, in the worship of the sun, the beginning of spring, and the dawn (Indian: Ushas, Iranian: Usha, Greek: Eos from Ausos, Latin: Aurora from Ausosa, Teutonic: Ostara), in the worship of ploughed land, and the tribal memory of outstanding individual leaders of prehistory subsequently elevated to the status of demi-Gods . . . in all this the Indo-European religiosity of “this world” is revealed as an expression of the experience of being sheltered and secure in the world which these peoples felt. W. Hauer has described the foundation of the Indo-European religiosity as “being sheltered by the world” (Weltgeborgenheit). One could also quote Eduard Spranger in support of this when he spoke of the religiosity of this world in which this feeling of being secure in the world has been expressed.

    Since being secure in the world forms the basis of this religiosity, as soon as it is developed with philosophic reflection it easily assumes the concept of the universal deity and becomes pantheistic, but this tendency remains reflective, and Indo-European religiosity never becomes intoxicated by the more impulsive forms of mysticism.

    The strictly theistic religions of the Abrahamics proclaimed personal Gods. T. H. Robinson (Old Testament in the Modern World, in H. H. Rowley: The Old Testament and Modern Study, 1951, p. 348) states categorically that “in the Jewish or Old Testament belief, there is no room left open for any kind of Pantheism.” Arthur Drews, in Die Religion als Selbstbewusstsein Gottes (1906, pp. 114-115), called Theism the basic category of Abrahamic religiosity, and Pantheism the basic category of Indo-European religiosity.

    The original Indo-European characteristically did not conceive of temples as dwelling places for Gods , nor did the oldest Indians. The early Romans and the Italici probably neither built temples nor carved images of the Gods. Tacitus (Germania, IX) wrote that the Teutons’ idea of the greatness of the deity did not permit them to enclose their Gods within walls. For the same reason the Persian King Khshayarsha (Xerxes) burnt the temples in Greece (Cicero: de legibus, II, 26: quod parietibus includerunt deos). Similarly the fact that the Indo-Europeans originally possessed no images of their Gods may correspond to a religiosity originating in the feeling of being secure in the world, and of being men of broad vision, an attitude which from the beginning has tended towards the concept of universal divinity.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #132 - August 06, 2014, 12:46 PM

    DIVINE ORDER

    The broad vision of the Indo-Europeans comprehends the whole world, and all divine government and all responsible human life in it, as part of a divine order. The Indians called it rita, over which Mitra and Varuna (Uranos in Greek mythology) stand guard — “the guardians of rita” the Persians called it ascha or urto (salvation, right, order); the Hellenes, kosmos; the Italici, ratio; the Teutons, örlog, or Midgard. Hermann Lommel, in Zarathustra und seine Lehre (Universitas, Year XII, 1957), speaks of a “lawful order of world events”, which the Iranians are said to have represented. Such an idea, the idea of a world order in which both Gods and men are arranged, permeates the teaching of the Stoics, and when Cicero (de legibus, I, 45; de finibus, IV, 34) praises virtue (virtus) as the perfection of reason, which rules the entire world (natura), then he once more expressed the idea of universal ordered life. Julius von Negelein in Die Weltanschauungen des Indogermanischen Asiens (Veröffentlichungen des Indogermanischen Seminars der Universität Erlangen, Vol. I, 1924, pp. 100 et seq., 104 et seq., 118 et seq.) has studied the idea of order as expressed in the course of the year with Indians and Iranians, an idea which corresponded to the teachings of the duty of the man of insight and of elevated moral outlook to fit himself into the order of the world. Later, Wolfgang Schultz (Zeitrechnung und Weltordnung, 1929), stressed that it is found solely of all the religions on earth, amongst the Indo-Europeans.

    “The Gods fixed the measure and end of everything on mother earth,” says the Odyssey (XVIII, 592-593), and Pherecydes who was probably taught by Anaximandros speaks in the sixth century B.C. of “ordering Zeus”, and here the idea of the divine world order resounds, just as it resounds in the Edda in The Vision of the Seeress:

    Then go the Regi rulers all
    To their judgment stools,
    These great holy Goths
    And counselt together that
    To the Night and New Moon
    They’d give these names.

    Morning also they named
    And Mid-Day too
    Dinner and Afternoon
    The time for to tell. 
    (L. A. Waddell: The British Edda, 1930, p. 23.) 


    In the recorded cosmic or Midgard concepts of the Indo-Europeans, man has his proper place in the great scheme of ordered life , but he is not enchained to it as are the oriental religions, with their star worship and priestly prophesies of the future — the study of entrails and the flight of birds, practised by the Babylonians, Etruscans and others. He appears in a trusting relationship with his God, whose nature itself is connected with the world order , and he joins with this God on a national scale in the struggle against all powers hostile to man and God, against chaos, against Utgard. The Indo-European recognises Midgard, the earth-space, as the field in which he may fulfil his destiny, cherishing life as a cultivator, where plants, animals and men are each called to grow and ripen into powerful forces asserting themselves within the timeless order.

    Guilt in man — not sin — arises wherever an individual defies or threatens this order and attempts through short-sighted obstinacy to oppose the divine universal order in life. For such a crime an individual incurs guilt. By such a crime, his people are threatened with the danger of decline and degeneration, and the world order with confusion and distortion.

    The Indo-Europeans, and particularly the Iranians, have to struggle continuously between on the one hand, the divine will, which strives to shape and introduce order into nations for the enhancement of every living thing, and between, on the other hand, a will hostile to God, which brings disintegration and distortion of form and the destruction of all seed on the other. The God Ahura Mazda (Ormuzd) perpetually struggles against the anti-God Angro Mainju (Ahriman). Midgard, the universal order of life, preserves and renews itself only through the brave and the constant struggle of men and Gods against the powers hostile to the Divine order, against Utgard. (cf. also Julius von Negelein, op. cit., pp. 116 et seq.). Midgard is the product of the harmonious ordering of human honour and the divine laws.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #133 - August 06, 2014, 12:47 PM

    mubs .. all that is good but put links on the stuff you copy/paste..

    http://marchofthetitans.com/earlson/raie01/4.htm

    That is decent thing to do.. to give credit to those who write that in the first place..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #134 - August 06, 2014, 12:48 PM

    The narrative is a bit too generalised and slightly carried away, but there are some valid points made.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #135 - August 06, 2014, 12:51 PM

    Quote
    Such an idea, the idea of a world order in which both Gods and men are arranged, ....... an idea which corresponded to the teachings of the duty of the man of insight and of elevated moral outlook to fit himself into the order of the world. Later, Wolfgang Schultz (Zeitrechnung und Weltordnung, 1929), stressed that it is found solely of all the religions on earth, amongst the Indo-Europeans.

    Ya reckon? Nowhere else in any non-IE religion? K. That's a big claim. Got any proof?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #136 - August 06, 2014, 12:57 PM

    I thought that was a big claim too. However, I can't off the top of my head refute it. The evidence will be in the book cited. You are free to disprove the claim as you only need one counter example
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #137 - August 06, 2014, 01:04 PM

    Offhand it sounds like the sort of thing you're likely to find across a range of cultures and religions. I know Aboriginal religions have a cosmic order which people are supposed to fit into. Ditto Amerindian religions. In fact, come to think of it, it pretty much seems to be a characteristic of most religions AFAICT.

    Frankly this clown seems to be grabbing common stuff and then asserting it's only found with IE religions, in an attempt to boost his basis for self-aggrandising wankery about how awesome he is due to his being technically Indo-European. I noticed you didn't reply to my earlier post, in which I pointed out that some his supposed "unique" traits of IE religions actually weren't unique at all. You just complained about people refuting your deity du jour. Tongue

    At the moment I see no need to waste my time reading the whole book. You haven't presented anything interesting yet.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #138 - August 06, 2014, 01:10 PM

    ..................Frankly this clown seems to be grabbing common stuff and then asserting it's only found with IE religions, in an attempt to boost his basis for self-aggrandising wankery about how awesome he is due to his being technically Indo-European.................

    well people should have freedom to do that., people(men and women)  do that all the time .. I mean .. "Imagine some good looking actor or actress and imagine that they are their boy friend/girl friend and MASTURBATE on that imagination.."    I wonder  about mubs_352 on that .,

     mubs_352,  did you do that when  you were 17 year old??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #139 - August 06, 2014, 01:49 PM

    Abu I'm going to post more IE religion stuff here and I really dont want the thread going off-topic. The mods already acted on this so I consider the matter closed.

    If you dont like it with all due respect you dont have to read it and you can always put me on ignore.


    Oh with due respect?

    Lol

    Don't tell me what to do Nazi-lover

    Btw I noticed you ignored what I said about Vallhalla and caste system. But as a nobly born hero you have nothing to worry about.

    And I  think Yeez's Wanker question deserves a response.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #140 - August 06, 2014, 01:52 PM

    .................
    Don't tell me what to do Nazi-lover

    ...................
    you ignored what I said about Vallhalla and caste system.....

    jew.................... juicy juice .. and..and STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT CASTE SYSTEM ... finmad

    huh!   what the hell is that Vallhalla system...??  Now I need to learn from Abu about subcontinent..   

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #141 - August 06, 2014, 01:58 PM

    Mubs you're just like any other religious fuckwit. You are selective about what you choose to see.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #142 - August 06, 2014, 02:06 PM

    jew.................... juicy juice .. and..and STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT CASTE SYSTEM ... finmad

    huh!   what the hell is that Vallhalla system...??  Now I need to learn from Abu about subcontinent..   


    Valhalla is viking heaven. The sort of thing mubs says doesn't exist in the indo European religions
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #143 - August 06, 2014, 02:18 PM

    Edited. See my next post
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #144 - August 06, 2014, 02:50 PM

    Lol your nazi man is just selecting what he wants to see and fits the fiction he wants to create.
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #145 - August 06, 2014, 03:37 PM

    And what about the caste system oh nobly-born nazi boy?

    U OK with that?
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #146 - August 06, 2014, 03:39 PM

    You went from Islam to this? Hmm....

    I think you're telling porkies nazi boy
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #147 - August 06, 2014, 03:41 PM

    This might be a very important discussion if we discuss it!  I am reading Song of Achilles.

    Achilles, his mother the goddess Thetis, his father, and Patroclus are meeting to hear about the "abduction" of Helen (Plot spoiler - Herodotus much later argues that women are not abducted unwillingly but that is off topic....!)

    What is fascinating is how the gods live along side us humans, and how they need to be educated by Chiron!

    Returning to the OP I think we are living in a very impoverished world, why are the gods no longer part of everyday life?

    Where is our Achilles, half man, half god, in love with life and Patroclus?

    These sentiments have been expressed elsewhere.  Nietzsche is very rude about xianity

    Quote
    The counterfeiters and poisoners of ideas, in their attempt to obscure the line between truth and falsehood, find a valuable ally in the conservatism of language.

    Conceptions and words that have long ago lost their original meaning continue through centuries to dominate mankind. Especially is this true if these conceptions have become a common-place, if they have been instilled in our beings from our infancy as great and irrefutable verities. The average mind is easily content with inherited and acquired things, or with the dicta of parents and teachers, because it is much easier to imitate than to create.

    Our age has given birth to two intellectual giants, who have undertaken to transvalue the dead social and moral values of the past, especially those contained in Christianity. Friedrich Nietzsche and Max Stirner have hurled blow upon blow against the portals of Christianity, because they saw in it a pernicious slave morality, the denial of life, the destroyer of all the elements that make for strength and character. True, Nietzsche has opposed the slave-morality idea inherent in Christianity in behalf of a master morality for the privileged few. But I venture to suggest that his master idea had nothing to do with the vulgarity of station, caste, or wealth. Rather did it mean the masterful in human possibilities, the masterful in man that would help him to overcome old traditions and worn-out values, so that he may learn to become the creator of new and beautiful things.

    Both Nietzsche and Stirner saw in Christianity the leveler of the human race, the breaker of man's will to dare and to do. They saw in every movement built on Christian morality and ethics attempts not at the emancipation from slavery, but for the perpetuation thereof. Hence they opposed these movements with might and main.


    http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/goldman413.htm

    The same arguments do apply to Judaism and Islam, (Islam especially - it means submit!) but I would argue these are more to do with HG Wells type arguments about free peoples as against people in tyrannies.

    So it does have a huge right wing racist background, but that does not make the principles incorrect.

    I have read elsewhere that reading and writing is the cause of us losing touch with the gods.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #148 - August 06, 2014, 03:42 PM

    IF we survey the whole field of Indo-European religiosity it is clear that much of what has been held in the Christian West as characteristic of the especially religious mind, will be found lacking in the Indo-European. Death can never be regarded by the Indo-European as a gloomy admonition to belief and religiosity. The fear of death, the threatened end of the world and the judgment of the dead have often been described as reasons for adhering to the narrow path of faith and morality. This is not true of the Indo-Europeans, for whom religiosity is a means to a fuller and wider life. As the Edda says:

    Bright and cheerful
    should each man be
    until death strikes him!
    (Edda, Vol. II, 1920, p. 144.)  


    Death is a significant phenomenon of human life, but the strength of Indo-European religiosity is not based upon the contemplation or fear of death. Death belongs to the universal order of life. The Indo-European faces it in the same way as the best in our people do today. Because for the honest man perfect human life is already possible on this earth, through balanced self-assertion; because in the order of the world the death of the individual is a natural phenomenon in the life , and because the beyond has no essential meaning in the life of the Indo-European, death has no influence on the Indo-European’s beliefs or moral concepts, except as a reminder that the time allowed to the individual to fulfil his purpose and duties..

    It is striking how pallid and how unstimulating are the original Indo-European ideas of life after death, such as the kingdom of death, of Hades, or Hel as seen by the Teutons. The Teutonic concept of Valhalla is scarcely of value here, being a late and exceptional development, derived less from religious disposition than from the poetic descriptive gift, of the Norwegian and Icelandic poets of the Viking era. It is also striking to find that no memories of Valhalla have been preserved in German sagas and fairy tales. Fundamentally, death for the Indo-Europeans meant the passage to a life, which in its individual features resembled life in the world of the living, only it was quieter, more balanced. The dead person remained part of the clan soul, in which he had shared when alive. He was at no time an unbridled individual, but always part of the existence over generations of a clan. As part of the clan soul individual death had no meaning for him. What concerned him in the kingdom of death was the welfare and prosperity of his clan, with its horses and cattle, fields and meadows.

    Achilles, when dead, asks Odysseus, who had penetrated into the underworld: “Give me news of my splendid sons!” (Odyssey, XL, 492), and goes away “with great strides, filled with joy” when he has learned of “his sons’ virtue” (XI, 539-540). As Paul Thieme (Studien zur indogermanischen Wortkunde und Religionsgeschichte, 1952, pp. 46 et seq.), has shown, the Indo-European ideas of a kingdom of the dead were originally less gloomy than the later Hellenic ideas of Hades or the Teutonic concept of Hel. In the Rig Veda of the Indians, as in the Avesta of the Iranians and as with Homer, memories are preserved of the kingdom of the dead as a pleasant meadow, a cattle meadow (Rig Veda) or a foal’s meadow (Homer) separated from the land of the living only by a river. On such green meadows the dead are reunited with their ancestors. According to Hans Hartmann (Der Totenkult in Irland, 1952, pp. 207-208) the honouring of dead ancestors ]as well as the worship of fire and the sun in Celtic Ireland corresponds to North-Germanic, Italic, Tocharic and Indo-Iranian customs, and seems therefore to form part of common Indo-European customs. Indo-European religiosity in fact has never emphasised the death of the individual, for the world order is regarded as timeless.

    As long as the order of life is preserved by the efforts of man and God against the powers hostile to the divine, the idea of redemption is incomprehensible to the Indo-Europeans. Redemption from what — and to what other existence?

    Revelation, the forming of religions through a prophet, the excitability and impulsiveness of the faithful for the revealed faith, are all phenomena which do not prosper in the realm of Indo-European religiosity. The elevation of faith in itself appears to the Indo-Europeans as a distortion of human nature. Faith in itself cannot be an Indo-European value. Excitedness for a belief, excitedness over an urge to convert, the mission to “unbelievers” the assertion that one’s own belief alone could make one blessed, an excitedness, further, which expresses itself in hatred towards other Gods and persecution of their believers: such excited rage or fanaticism has repeatedly emanated from people of Abrahamic faiths.

    The Indo-European religiosity does not preach to non-believers, but is willing to explain to an enquirer the nature of his personal beliefs. Hence the patience of all Indo-Europeans in religious matters. Zeal to convert and intolerance have always remained alien to every aspect of Indo-European religiosity. One cannot imagine a true Hellene preaching his religious ideas to a non-Hellene; no Teuton, Roman, Persian or Aryan Brahman Indian, would have wished to ‘convert’ other men to his belief.

    The kings Cyrus the Great and Darius passed commandments concerning the mutual tolerance of the religions of their Empire. The Indian King Asoka, who was converted to Buddhism, the sole religion which spread peacefully and without bloodshed, introduced laws prescribing mutual tolerance between the religions of his kingdoms. They were engraved on stone tablets, and many were rediscovered at the beginning of the nineteenth century. The historian can only cite such examples from the Indo-European realm. Vergil’s law of sparing the vanquished (parcere subjectis) was practised by the Romans not only on subject peoples, but also on their Gods and religions although an interpretatio Romana once attempted to include alien Gods as being off-shoots of their own deities.

    In recording the events in his time, when Christianity had already become the state religion, Ammianus — a pagan — reported the intrigues of the Christians against Julian without abuse, since this would not have corresponded to his Hellenic-Roman attitude of tolerance. In the controversies of Pagan and Christian writers and poets, passionate worshippers of the old Roman belief such as Quintus Aurelius Symmachus, Ambrosius Theodosius Macrodius and Claudius Rutilius Namantianus, have given their opinion of Christianity and Christians in a dignified manner. Abuse and contempt for opponents is found in these times only amongst the Christian writers.Only after their conversion to Christianity, whose idea of God corresponded to the intolerant, religious war-waging Gods of the Abrahamics, have Indo-European peoples forced their beliefs on alien tribes; the king of the Franks, Charlemagne, forced Christianity upon the Saxons who were subjected after a bloody struggle. King Olav Tryggveson of Norway (995-1000), after being baptised in England, was persuaded to force conversion on his own people by cunning, treachery and cruel persecutions, as well as by bribing them to submit to baptism. Andreas Heusler (Germanentum, 1934, pp. 47, 48, 119, 122) has asserted that among the Northern Teutons there was quite enough violence, but never cruelty; only after the introduction of Christianity did converted zealots behave cruelly towards their countrymen.

    Indo-European belief without tolerance is inconceivable, and any Indo-European religious form, which demanded “true believers”, is similarly inconceivable, just as much as an Indo-European form of belief in conflict with free research, and independent thought is inconceivable. Where excitedness of belief might damage the inborn love of truth and the inborn nobility of the freeman, rightness of belief cannot be considered as a value of religiosity. Indo-European forms of belief have generally remained free from any rigid doctrine of belief or dogma and from the worship of a revealed word.

    Inborn Indo-European religiosity will unfold much more easily in a definite mystical form than in belief in redemption and revelation or in churchly forms. What causes the Indo-Europeans to show interest in mystical views, is the possibility of direct relationship with the deity, the deepening of an ever vital urge to “reciprocal friendship between Gods and men” (Plato) and the implicit tendency towards the ideas of the universal deity (Pantheism). Where Indo-Europeans accepted alien beliefs, mystical thought has later set in against these beliefs, as is already found with the Christian Boethius (480-525), who in his work, Concerning Consolation Through Philosophy, advances viewpoints which he had taken over from Plato, the Stoics, the Neo-Pythagorians, and from Plotinus, rather than from Christian services. The same mystic revolt, tending towards a return to Pantheism, is found in the Sufism which arose amongst the Aryan Persians after their forcible conversion to Islam. It also began to stir in Europe as soon as the Nordic-Teutonic spirit began to express itself against the Roman-Christian belief.

  • Enter, for here the Gods also dwell!
     Reply #149 - August 06, 2014, 03:49 PM

    I don't know whether this has anything to do with this topic but most pagans today deny to accept the negative aspects of their religions, saying that their religion is progressive, they are smear campaigns by the Christians or that the stories should not be taken literally. For instance the Hindus say that their stories are only for moral lessons which is the most important thing. But I still scratch my head while thinking what is the moral lesson to learn about God Shiva ejaculating by only seeing God Vishnu's ravishing female avatar, Mohini? That too in front of His wife Parvati? I think it is that wives should be silent no matter what their husband's do.
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »