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 Topic: The Architiname of Mohammed

 (Read 5433 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     OP - August 14, 2014, 04:08 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Achtiname_of_Muhammad

    Quote
    The Achtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or (Holy) Testament (Testamentum) of the Prophet Muhammad, is a document or ahdname which is a charter or writ allegedly ratified by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad granting protection and other privileges to the monks of Saint Catherine's Monastery. It is sealed with an imprint representing Muhammad's hand.[1]


    This wiki article reads as if it is a real document.  If so, how is it possible his existence has been questioned.  I don't remember Tom Holland mentioning it for example.

    Anyone know anything about this?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #1 - August 14, 2014, 05:35 PM
    Looks thoroughly bogus IMO.

    Concocted to try to claim privileges against the Islamic state.

    Would guess it probably surfaced during the late Abassid caliphate.
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #2 - August 14, 2014, 05:46 PM
    its not legit, probably forged by the monks themselves to try and get protection
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #3 - August 14, 2014, 06:20 PM
    Bullshit, how do you explain the Assyrian Covenant of Muhammad?

    How is that not legit?
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #4 - August 14, 2014, 06:30 PM
    Just googling and my reaction is too good to be true - both xians and Muslims want it to be true - it protects xian heritage and casts Islam in a generous peaceful light.

    Problem seems to be a recent book that does not seem to have been academically reviewed.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #5 - August 14, 2014, 06:33 PM
    it was probably forged as Zaotar says "to try to claim privileges against the Islamic state"
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #6 - August 14, 2014, 06:35 PM
    Quote
    Since the 19th century, several aspects of the Achtiname, notably the list of witnesses, have been questioned by scholars.[6] There are similarities to other documents granted to other religious communities in the Near East. One example is Muhammad's letter to the Christians of Najrān, which first came to light in 878 in a monastery in Iraq and whose text is preserved in the Chronicle of Séert


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #7 - August 14, 2014, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: Nergal on August 14, 2014, 06:20 PM
    Bullshit, how do you explain the Assyrian Covenant of Muhammad?

    How is that not legit?

    You positive it is legit? Anyway, just because you have fake ones doesn't mean you don't have real ones as well.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #8 - August 15, 2014, 01:23 AM
    Covenants  of Prophet of Islam Muhammad(PBUH)



    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/roberthunt/2013/12/the-covenants-of-the-prophet-muhammad/

    Prophet  Muhammad's Letters

    The Covenants of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of the World By Zia Shaw Book Review

    John Andrew Morrow web site Author of  the book "The Covenants of the Prophet "
    and off course don't forget to free download or read  that book of Robert Spencer  "The Truth Aaout Muhammad"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #9 - August 15, 2014, 06:05 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 14, 2014, 10:56 PM
    You positive it is legit? Anyway, just because you have fake ones doesn't mean you don't have real ones as well.


    The real one was destroyed in 1847 by the Ottoman empire.

    But it was legit or else it would've never been written down.
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #10 - August 15, 2014, 01:24 PM
    Looking at that Zia Shaw review, and the reference to Karen Armstrong, there do seem to be huge propaganda reasons for this to be true.  Snag is it still asserts Islamic supremacy albeit in a motherhood and apple pie Islamic State in which the pagans, Jews and Christians all live happily ever after - but do they have to pay that tax?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #11 - August 15, 2014, 01:43 PM
    Quote from: moi on August 15, 2014, 01:24 PM
    ...............apple pie Islamic State in which the pagans, Jews and Christians all live happily ever after - but do they have to pay that tax?

    Well that apple pie Islamic State is good for   pagans, Jews and Christians" as long as ISLAMIC STATE RULERS ARE NOT QUESTIONED about where they are getting apples and how the pie is distributed..

    Once a non-Muslim or a Muslim group questions  those apples and  apple pie then problems start., Once the problems  start in so-called Islamic nations, then first victims in  such lands are are those other religious  groups and other minority Muslims groups that are not violent and do not have means to defend themselves.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #12 - August 15, 2014, 01:49 PM
    Quote from: Nergal on August 15, 2014, 06:05 AM
    The real one was destroyed in 1847 by the Ottoman empire.

    But it was legit or else it would've never been written down.


    I suspect it was written down by Christians in order to protect themselves from oppressive attention.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #13 - August 15, 2014, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: Nergal on August 14, 2014, 06:20 PM
    Bullshit, how do you explain the Assyrian Covenant of Muhammad?

    How is that not legit?


    In exactly the same way that 15th century Catholic textual scholars ( Nicholas of Cusa, Valla ) demonstrated on linguistic and historical grounds that the Donation of Constantine was a spurious 9th century document, and that the legal foundations of Papal pretensions to secular overlordship were baseless.
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #14 - August 15, 2014, 02:27 PM
    It must be quite simple to seriously question this sort of stuff academically.  Has no one done it?
     
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #15 - August 15, 2014, 02:40 PM
    Success!

    Quote
    The existence of the monastery of St. Catherine was threatened several times during the medieval period. The monks had to repeatedly deal with the now Muslim environment around them not to disappear. The mighty walls of Justinian still surround the monastery today were probably a guarantee to protect against Bedouin but insufficient in truth. To survive, they had to use various strategies to legitimize the existence of the monastery under Muslim law. One way was the development, from the ninth century, a discourse on the passage of the Prophet of Islam in Sainte-Catherine. Muhammad still single camel would have stayed at the monastery; monks would then tipped his prophetic future and reportedly asked him a number of privileges. This legend is used to explain the show, even today, in the entrance of the monastery at the bottom of a document to which contains the handprint, that of the Prophet of Islam who was considered illiterate. This is according to a centuries-old tradition, a copy of the act by which Muhammad had granted protection to the monastery.



    (Google translation!) http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.clio.fr/BIBLIOTHEQUE/le_sinai_medieval_entre_christianisme_et_islam.asp&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMouton%2527s%2B(Le%2BSina%25C3%25AF%2Bdurant%2Bl%25E2%2580%2599antiquit%25C3%25A9%2Bet%2Ble%2Bmoyen%2B%25C3%25A2ge,%2B1998).%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #16 - August 15, 2014, 03:11 PM
    that is exactly what I suspected.

    The existence of this 'covenant' doesn't prove that Christians were to be protected by Muhammad, but that Christians were under duress in the early expansion of Islam.

    I salute the ingenuity and chutzpah of the monks who penned it!
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #17 - August 15, 2014, 03:19 PM
    Interestingly, that monastery, with backing of Justinian, would have been a powerhouse of knowledge, diplomacy and skills like that.  They would easily have the skills to produce such documents, and make them authentic!
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #18 - August 15, 2014, 03:23 PM
    they were awesome. Even put a hand print on it for extra Muhammad authenticity.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #19 - August 15, 2014, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 15, 2014, 03:23 PM
    they were awesome. Even put a hand print on it for extra Muhammad authenticity.


    yap .. Islamic paper  "Islamic Art Calligraphy" prints  with those gold letters and Islamic Architecture with those long twisted Arabic letters  is all awesome and breath taking






    yap .....they are beautiful and breath taking..  but what is not beautiful??    


    Properly groomed hair on the head, face or even on other places of human body also looks beautiful along with this tree in desert



    i see at deenislam.co.uk    They are all beautiful....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Architiname of Mohammed
     Reply #20 - August 15, 2014, 06:06 PM
    The wiki site for that article states it is of high importance for wiki islam.

    Will it continue to be when it is realised it is an authentic two hundred years after Mohammed Christian document to mislead the powers that be?

    Might it then become of high importance as an example of the real relationships going on then?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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