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 Topic: A question regarding males on having multiple wives.

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  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     OP - August 14, 2014, 10:39 PM
    Hello, I have a question regarding the conditions of having multiple wives. I am not sure where precisely this should be posted, but let me first clarify why I ask this question. Recently, someone who is close to me revealed to me that he actually had a second wife and conceived a child with her, without the knowledge of his first wife. However, the mind boggling problem that i have with him is that he, as of now does not want to relinquish his marriage with his first wife, even though she wants to end it.
     Then, when I thought about it, why is she even asking him to end the marriage? Can she not do it herself? So far I am told that it is the man that can only terminate it. Although it pisses me off tremendously, before I go again trying to convince him that the least he can do in his freaking failed marriage at this point is end it, i need to know a couple of things.

    One. If a husband has sex with another wife, without her knowledge of it, including having no knowledge of this second marriage, is it considered, adultery?

    Second. Is it really supported by the Quran or hadith, that it is only a man that can end a marriage, even if a woman is wronged and the man is obviously rejecting a divorce out of self interest? ( Like not wanting to lose his children for example)

    These are my questions and i would be grateful if anyone can answer. So  I thank you in advance. Smiley
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #1 - August 14, 2014, 10:43 PM
    1. No.
    2. In theory, no, but in practice, pretty much. But there's at least one hadith I can think of off the top of my head where a woman gets a divorce with Mohammad's blessing with the condition that she returns her mahr.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #2 - August 14, 2014, 11:13 PM
    ^ So Islam pretty much encourages cheating and a man can disguise this cheating by marrying another wife. How fucked up is that?

     So does that mean there is not a universally accepted verse that explicitly says that only a man can divorce a woman, but it is pretty much set up like that, through maybe culture? I am asking, just so that we are on the same page. I can be very dense sometimes.  That is good. If this is true, even with just a hadith it should be enough to bring at least some sense in the idea letting her divorce him, instead of trying to convince him to do it in the first place. I will also look more into it, but thank you for answering my questions Smiley
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #3 - August 14, 2014, 11:21 PM
    There's no requirement as far as I know within Islamic law for the approval of the wife on second marriage.

    Also if he's unwilling to divorce her, she can ask for an Imam for divorce.  And if he refuses she can go to another&another&another....until she finds one that says yes. But in that case she'd be required to repay mahr...thats if you take Islamic law seriously..
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #4 - August 15, 2014, 03:01 AM
    Quote from: SomaBoyConfused on August 14, 2014, 11:13 PM
    ^ So Islam pretty much encourages cheating and a man can disguise this cheating by marrying another wife. How fucked up is that?

     So does that mean there is not a universally accepted verse that explicitly says that only a man can divorce a woman, but it is pretty much set up like that, through maybe culture? I am asking, just so that we are on the same page. I can be very dense sometimes.  That is good. If this is true, even with just a hadith it should be enough to bring at least some sense in the idea letting her divorce him, instead of trying to convince him to do it in the first place. I will also look more into it, but thank you for answering my questions Smiley



    I had a friend who endured a horrific nightmarishly brutal sort of marriage. Her husband did not want to lose his victim, he would not divorce her. She escaped with her family's help and blessing, and I took her to an imam in the West and gave him the story. The imam could do nothing.
    Men can do whatever they like, Islamically. Women are enslaved to them.
    That is how it plays out, no matter what anyone or any apologist literature says, that is the letter of Shariah. Now, there are judges and imams who do other things, who make calls of judgement on the behalf of morality, and this is permissible in I think three madhabs, but this is a sort of volunteering on their part, to go this extra mile.
    People soften Islam, not the other way around.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #5 - August 15, 2014, 08:45 AM
    Very nicely put three, it is exactly like that. I don't know how many times I've heard "the first wife must give consent", but that is Islamically speaking simply not true. The man can have four wives and numerous concubines/sex slaves without ever telling none of his women. The only issue a judge/shaykh would have with this, is that the children are bereft from getting to know their siblings, and if the husband unexpectedly dies without telling the truth it can cause issues and family problems for those left behind. But it really isn't haram for him to do so, it's just "not good". It's like that with everything when it comes to women's rights in Islam and in particular their marriages.

    As for the divorce thing, we had a thread about that some months ago. A woman can never initiate a divorce. What she can do is ask for separation, either by talaq (thus keeping her mahr) and if the husband is nice he can give it to her. If not, she can demand for khul' but that khul' must be accepted and reinforces by a judge (or the husband if he goes along with it, thus not needing to involve a judge). She then must give up her mahr, or even more than her mahr, in order to "buy" her way out of the marriage.

    However, if the judge deems the request to be "baseless", then she has no way to get out of the marriage. This is one of the problems with the shariah not being codified (which it will never be, because it goes against the very core principles and history of the shariah), which is that you are exposed to the whims of the individual judge you go to. What he says is law, but one of his colleagues might very well judge differently on the exact same case.

    The only way to free women from the shackles of Islam and its shariah is by them stop reproducing their own oppression and subjugation.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #6 - August 15, 2014, 02:04 PM
    Also, she could call many mainstream Islamic organizations and tape their conversations, without them knowing, if they refuse, send the tapes to the media and then retry. If she can't find any imam in her city, try the whole country, then other countries.  Also some might even accept khul through email...but dont forget the mahr in that case  :p

    http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=122890
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #7 - August 23, 2014, 09:24 PM
    [quote
    People soften Islam, not the other way around.
    [/quote]

    From all that i learned, heared and read last year, while i was trying to learn and understand more about Islam and the Quran , this above quote says it all. All what i felt and thought during my learning.

    I couldnt match all the beautiful things my bf told me, with the things i read and the questions i had. This one little sentence is the answer.
    For god and money devils fight
    Religion holds a beast inside

    Racoon
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #8 - August 23, 2014, 10:12 PM
    That was my lure. I was looking at the nice people I knew, and thinking their religion was responsible for their personalities.  They would claim as much. I believed it, I knew no better, initially.
    It took me years to figure out that they were the reason Islam was appealing, that the canonical texts truly were intolerable and could not be explained away.
    That there are apologists out there was the proof I needed, to realize that Islam really was awful, and had to be spun or misunderstood or not practiced by these nice people, to be palatable at all.
    I love Muslims. Islam, not so much.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #9 - August 24, 2014, 12:39 AM
    Quote from: three on August 23, 2014, 10:12 PM
    That was my lure. I was looking at the nice people I knew, and thinking their religion was responsible for their personalities.  They would claim as much. I believed it, I knew no better, initially.
    It took me years to figure out that they were the reason Islam was appealing, that the canonical texts truly were intolerable and could not be explained away.
    That there are apologists out there was the proof I needed, to realize that Islam really was awful, and had to be spun or misunderstood or not practiced by these nice people, to be palatable at all.
    I love Muslims. Islam, not so much.


    Same.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #10 - August 24, 2014, 07:14 PM
    Yes i also thought that his religion made my bf to that person with a beautiful soft character . Full love and in a beautiful way he told me how Islam sees women. That they are placed so high, and treated with so much care. That a Muslim woman is so special and will be treated like a princes.

    Till i started asking questions like: Can i go to work too? Can i earn my own money?  Can i walk around with my hairs uncovered cause i dont care if other men look at me,  i only wanna look at you. Can i still go to concerts as a Muslim woman? Will you also do the cooking?



    And i found out that i only would be a  princess as long as i would obey and follow the rules. Under all other circumstances i only would be a troublemaker.

    He made look Islam so beautiful. But reality is another thing.
    For god and money devils fight
    Religion holds a beast inside

    Racoon
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #11 - August 24, 2014, 10:04 PM
    Yes. Obedience is required. I am glad you figured that part out. It makes everything else null and void regarding the treatment of women. Because if you require obedience from women and all is conditional on that, then we are actually discussing the kindness you should display to your slaves.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #12 - January 24, 2015, 10:33 PM
    She's been fucked over basically. She needs to get a divorce sue for half the house money car and savings. Then take her kids and live in peace. If he wants to be a dad let him but she don't need to put up with him. As for islam no women is forced to stay with a man she hates as long as she can provide for herself and move on
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #13 - January 24, 2015, 10:37 PM
    I am very sorry but you are mistaken. Many women are required to stay with men that they hate, as they cannot get a divorce or often, they would have to give up any and all claim to, and contact with,  their own children to get said divorce. That is a hostage situation.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #14 - January 24, 2015, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: Not Oppressed on January 24, 2015, 10:33 PM
    She's been fucked over basically. She needs to get a divorce sue for half the house money car and savings. Then take her kids and live in peace. If he wants to be a dad let him but she don't need to put up with him. As for islam no women is forced to stay with a man she hates as long as she can provide for herself and move on


    Is she married legally within a secular nation? Most secular nations do not recognize religious marriages. If so just bypass Islam all together as it is irrelevant under the law. If she was not legally married but in a secular nation check the laws covering common law marriage/co-habitation. For example in Canada if a couple lives together for 2 years or more. While she will not have the same rights as a legal couple she does have rights more than a couple living apart. Children produced by the relationship are covered by common law as well.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #15 - January 25, 2015, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on August 15, 2014, 08:45 AM
    Very nicely put three, it is exactly like that. I don't know how many times I've heard "the first wife must give consent", but that is Islamically speaking simply not true. The man can have four wives and numerous concubines/sex slaves without ever telling none of his women.


    Wow, I didn't know that. Is it not count as adultery? So that basically means that only a women can commit adultery, and a man not?

    My second question would be a bit off topic: Is it true that a Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim wife (Jew, or Christian) without converting her. Whereas a women can only marry a Muslim man?
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #16 - January 25, 2015, 03:16 AM
    Yes, your second question is correct, true. But the wife who belongs to the People of the Book MUST agree that the offspring of the union be raised as Muslims, so there are stipulations. She also must be of good character, and chaste, or some such nonsense like that.

    Men can commit adultery, they just have different parameters, as they can have countless legally allowable partners as laid out in Surah an Nisa (someone will correct me if I am mistaken on where the list is). So if a man, for example, has a sexual relationship with his neighbor's wife, that would be adultery. Unless he went to war with his neighbor and and took the neighbor's wife as a conquest of war, then it would be allowed (see, you can move those parameters for men).  Women, however, would be committing adultery were they to have relations with any man who is not their husband.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #17 - January 25, 2015, 05:27 AM
    the whole concept of "marriage" in islam is still considered strange to me. I remember when I was in secondary school and they taught us basic fiqh. the definition for marriage in fiqh is "a contract (aqad) that legalises sex between a man and a woman who aren't mahrams". I thought to myself that such a definition was so strange, that its main deal is to legalise sex. later I learned that the word "nikah" in Arabic pretty much means "to penetrate". the word "nikah" is still used in the language in my country to refer to marriage .

    the there's the way the aqad is done. I don't know if this practice is universal among other muslims, but here, the aqad is done between the wali, usually the bride's father, the groom, and the qadi. the father makes a contract to hand over the daughter, and the groom makes a contract to take her as the wife. what's so strange to me is that the bride is not even involved in the whole contract ceremony, as if she's been handed from father to husband. of course in today's world it's merely considered ceremonial, but still.
    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • A question regarding males on having multiple wives.
     Reply #18 - January 25, 2015, 09:10 AM
    Quote from: ElToro on January 25, 2015, 12:30 AM
    Wow, I didn't know that. Is it not count as adultery? So that basically means that only a women can commit adultery, and a man not?

    My second question would be a bit off topic: Is it true that a Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim wife (Jew, or Christian) without converting her. Whereas a women can only marry a Muslim man?

    Answers to ElToro questions..

    Marriage rules -Part I

    Marriage rules -Part 2
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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