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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hagarism

 (Read 1975 times)
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  • Hagarism
     OP - August 21, 2014, 08:51 AM

    Recently found Crone and Cook's book on line, and OK, it is a difficult read, but to me basically chimes with the arguments of Tom Holland.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/27096936/Hagarism-The-Making-of-the-Islamic-World

    Wiki is quite negative about it, asserting Crone has in some way renounced it, my impression is she has acknowledged there are minor errors in it, and as it is so controversial, hsas decided to be circumspect.

    But the basic ideas, that Islam really has Samaritan roots, Mohammed actually lived near the famous Abrahamic sites like Becca, and was alive in 630, that Islam was pulled together at least 100 years later in Babylon with strong Jewish rabinnical influences, makes sense.

    I think we have more than the basic outlines of what actually happened.  The snag is there is a huge amount of noise supporting the authorised version!

    Does anyone know if anyone has summarised the various histories of Islam in a way to allow them to be compared and work out what makes most sense?

    And what is so strange is that doing that is by definition utterly blasphemous!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hagarism
     Reply #1 - August 21, 2014, 09:11 AM

    Just thinking about the arguments in Hagarism.  One is that all communities create their identities by mapping various elements of family, tribe, belief, geography - religion, language, ethnicity...

    The book describes the various communities around in the 5-600's - Greek, Persian, Roman, Christian,(Coptic, Roman, Greek, Syrian...) Pagan, Egyptian, Jews, Aramaic speakers, Samaritans, desert dwellers, town dwellers..

    In some ways the Arabs feel like cuckoos in the nest, telling everyone else they are really cuckoos with this theological nation of ummah.  But very few people actually are arabs!

    A myriad civil wars are predictable, especially if the cuckoo tells everyone to submit, although Hagarism notes the reason for this was because this is the end times, and the prophet was preparing the way for someone greater than him - which is what prophets normally do!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hagarism
     Reply #2 - August 21, 2014, 07:38 PM

    Interesting. Cheers moi.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hagarism
     Reply #3 - August 21, 2014, 09:33 PM

    Hagarism was an interesting hypothesis but it seems to have been wrong in a number of respects ... particularly in emphasizing the *Jewish/Samaritan* roots of the 'believers.'  Hagarism portrayed Islam as a Jewish messianic movement.  That was clearly not correct.  Crone in her later interviews has remarked on how the Qur'an is fairly hostile to the Jews.

    Scholars have since shown that the Qur'an primarily presupposes that its recipients know and accept the basic traditions and narratives of Syriac Christianity, as well as its language.  In almost every instance, the Qur'an's language and references are to the Syriac Christian tradition, NOT to rabbinical Judaic tradition.  In addition, the Qur'an often rails against the Jews, at least in the so-called Medina surahs.  So generally the trend is to think that the believers were much more representative of an unorthodox monotheistic apocalypticism, based on the traditions of Syriac Christianity, but with a more archaic and non-trinitarian bent -- pre-Nicene Eastern Christian tradition.

    Shoemaker's recent book "Death of a Prophet" is an updated and much-better version of the Hagarism thesism which fixes these problems.  He makes a great case for Islam having originally been an apocalyptic movement of believers focused on conquering Jerusalem under the leadership of an Arabic-speaking prophet, likely located in Syria -- and that when Muhammad unexpectedly died before Jerusalem was conquered, the believers were stunned, and it took decades before they reinterpreted and reformed their beliefs in a way that became Islam.  I think Shoemaker's book is the best current theory about what actually went down.  Unfortunately, it is miserably expensive.
  • Hagarism
     Reply #4 - August 21, 2014, 09:52 PM

    "Unfortunately, it is miserably expensive."

    This.

    I'm going to buy it soon, I haven't yet found a way to obtain a less expensive copy.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hagarism
     Reply #5 - August 29, 2014, 05:28 PM

    pdf of God's Caliph by Patricia Crone and Martin Hinds: http://ahadithstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/crone-gods-caliph.pdf

    At a glance this seems pretty obscure. Maybe someone could summarise it for me.

    Edit: OK I've found a comment on it here.
    Quote
    To my mind, God’s Caliph is the most exciting and consequential work of early Islamic history written over the last half century, and it packs its extraordinary punch because it applies evidence to model so effectively. Of course Watt and Schacht (amongst others) had set the groundwork for challenging the classical Sunni view on the Umayyad and early Abbasid caliphate, but it was Crone and Hinds who recognized how deeply the jurists’ and traditionists’ views had misrepresented things, especially by denuding legislating and salvific caliphs of their religious authority. As they show in exacting detail, documentary, numismatic and literary evidence, all of which can be dated to the seventh and eighth centuries, documents a pre-classical conception of God’s Deputyship rooted in (and legitimated by) Muḥammad’s indivisible authority. What results is a genuinely radical revision of the state’s governing institution, along with a striking recasting of early Islamic religious history, in which the genealogies of orthodox and heterodox positions are re-mapped: the Sunni construction of the caliphate is shown to be a departure, the Imami conception an ‘archaism rather than an innovation’. Had Walter Bauer been an Islamicist, he might well have shown the same.

  • Hagarism
     Reply #6 - August 29, 2014, 05:34 PM

    pdf of God's Caliph by Patricia Crone and Martin Hinds: http://ahadithstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/crone-gods-caliph.pdf

    At a glance this seems pretty obscure. Maybe someone could summarise it for me.

     Hmm.. Thanks for that little booklet from her  zeca ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Hagarism
     Reply #7 - August 29, 2014, 05:51 PM

    A short and readable pdf: What do we actually know about Muhammad?

    Also God's Rule, Government and Islam which looks interesting but takes forever to load. Review here.
    Quote
    This is a brilliant contribution to Islamic studies. The first third of the book explains the origin of the various Muslim sects, religiopolitical factions, and parties and movements as they evolved in response to the historical circumstances of the first two Muslim centuries. Much of it is based on the author's previous contributions. The political, religious, and philosophical positions of the Shiites, Mutazilites, Abbasids, Zaydis, Imamis, and the Hadith party are explained with incisive clarity and rich detail.

    The second part is a review of the Muslim political literatures in the Persian and Greek traditions, and Ismaili and Sunni theory, of the period from the ninth to the thirteenth centuries. Though less revealing, this part sets the stage for the final third of the book, which deals with the nature and functions of government, the concepts of freedom and society, and the relations between Muslims and non-Muslims. Set out logically and thematically, these chapters explain the positions of the major schools and sects on each of the issues.

    The chapter on the nature of government—which deals with the questions of why people live in societies, why they must have law, why law must be God-given, and why God-given law necessitates a monarchical and absolutist regime—is the most powerful and revealing chapter in the book. An equally interesting chapter on Muslims and non-Muslims lays out the concept of holy war, explicates the justifications for Muslim religious imperialisms, the debates about the treatment of non-Muslims, and Muslim attitudes toward conversions. An unusual added dimension is the discussion of Muslim views on the treatment of dissident or nonconforming Muslims and the law of war in such cases. These thematic reviews will be the most useful to scholars and students outside of the field, but because of the way in which the views of the various schools are fragmented by topic, it will not be easy to get an overview of the individual positions.

    This important book, however, suffers from some of the limitations inherent in Islamic scholarship. The book is concerned with literary discourses, which are only one dimension of political thinking. Real-world political culture—including individual loyalties and ambitions, family and tribal commitments, patronage and clientage, and struggles for power and wealth—is not considered.

    Despite its forceful clarity and strong logical orderliness, the book will not be easy to read for people outside of the field. The historical examples are selected far and wide in the period from the seventh to the thirteenth centuries in the region from Central Asia to the Atlantic. The high level of detail and the endless references to historical persons and events that will not be familiar to uninitiated readers are a barrier to a wider audience. So too is the absence, apart from sporadic passing comments, of any comparative reference to Western or other political theory. That Crone is conventionally historical and literary in her approach and does not break new methodological ground is not a criticism of her work, but a comment on the isolation of Islamic studies from other fields, and a caution that the subject has become so self-referential that even someone so brilliant and learned does not readily communicate with scholars outside of her field.

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