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Theme Changer

 Topic: Taqiyyah anyone??

 (Read 2013 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     OP - August 30, 2014, 10:56 AM

    I often hear apologists or even fair-minded critics  (Klingschor comes to mind) dismiss widespread practice of Taqiyyah amongst muslims. First of all, while (Shia) islam names the practice specifically, and sanctions it, it doesn't mean that it started with islam. Obviously we all lie, and often don't spill our hearts out to those who we don't trust! it's as simple as that. So when I read the history of Morsicos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco) for instance, it only reinforces my belief that there's a historical precedent of Taqiyyah even amongst the sunnis. Similarly, there are stories of muslims under Soviet tyranny resorting to Taqiyyah (I am sure some Chinese Uighurs are engaging in it today as well to simply get by). So in short, when I see the likes of Zakir Naik promoting interfaith harmony on TV, I don't believe for a second they are being genuine. I mean do we seriously expect a salafi to address a mushrik / idolator as 'brother'? If this isn't Taqiyya, I don't know what else is?
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #1 - August 30, 2014, 11:16 AM

    Lying in Islam is permitted when in danger, and thats what taqiyyah is for the Shi'ites. Ive heard a salafi jihadi exclaming -taqiyyah !...for when  shi'ites speak diplomatically or well of some of the sahabas that are 'insulted' in Shia doctrine...but taqiyyah just means lying when in danger. That said, it doesn't mean that Islamist don't routinely lie and doublespeak all the time....but thats not taqiyyah, its just regular lying.
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #2 - August 30, 2014, 11:47 AM

    Lying in Islam is permitted when in danger, .................

    mistranslation

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jeck6q4-QE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #3 - August 30, 2014, 12:06 PM

    As you say many people lie when it suits them.

    Taqiyya is however not a widely recognised and consciously practised article of faith amongst Muslims.

    I had only ever very rarely heard the word when I was a Muslim - and that was in connection to the Shi'a.

    What I dislike about the use of this is that it singles out Muslims as being uniquely dishonest and deceptive. Dehumanising them, much like the Jews were before the 2nd World War.
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #4 - August 30, 2014, 12:10 PM

    this subject is so tedious. If anything shows how malignant the likes of Robert Spencer are its the recurrence of this canard.

    this video says it better than I can

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZSJg1HQpc

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #5 - August 30, 2014, 12:13 PM


    I had only ever very rarely heard the word when I was a Muslim - and that was in connection to the Shi'a.



    Oh and btw please don't get me wrong here. I'm not accusing the Shi'ah of being dishonest etc... This arose as a perfectly understandable defence mechanism in a time when Sunni majority ruthlessly oppressed Shi'a minorities (as they still do sadly).
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #6 - August 30, 2014, 01:19 PM

    Firstly, I do agree that the over-use of taqiyyah-blaming of Muslims is uncalled for. All people lie, are dishonest and deceit people. It's not something that only Muslims do, and it's not only Muslims who do it for the sake of their religion. I think that Spencer and his likes are intentionally over-exaggerating in order to demonize the entire faith and its adherents. And I would not call the concept of taqiyyah an article of faith, either. Not even among mainstream shi'as do they see taqiyyah as an integral part of their faith.

    However, to say that the actual practice is not found within Islamic texts is misinformed at best. I have rarely come across an actual discussion about taqiyyah (the actual term etc) in Islamic sources, but the idea that lying is not only permissible, but also praiseworthy, is a recognized fact even in sunni Islam and also discussed in depth on occasions. Sometimes it's not defined as lying though, rather "withholding" certain information or intentionally saying something that could easily be misunderstood as something different than your actual intention.

    Hence, we have embarrassing moments like that of Zakir Naik, or as my real life experience that someone is all nice and "inter-faith-dialogue"-ish in front of non-Muslims but as soon as no one is around the real fanaticism and extremism found in Islam is openly talked about.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #7 - September 11, 2014, 07:48 PM

    Thanks all for the interesting and valuable perspectives/observations..

    I once read a takfiri fatwa by a Salafi mullah against Shias in which he suggested to 'not trust Shia even when they leave their faith, since Shias follow the practice of taqiyya'... So my point here was to highlight the irony of situation where sunnis of today are using the same (may I say commonsense) tactics to survive in unfavorable circumstances that they accused the Shias of resorting to.  I just feel that their leaders need to be exposed for what they are doing.
  • Taqiyyah anyone??
     Reply #8 - September 11, 2014, 09:55 PM

    There are specialists in these matters!

    Quote
    "In actual fact, the Jesuit casuists deal with two forms of permissible deception, that of 'amphibology' and that of reservatio mentalis. 'Amphibology' is nothing else than the employment of ambiguous terms calculated to mislead the questioner; 'mental reservation' consists in answering a question, not with a direct lie, but in such a way that the truth is partly suppressed, certain words being formulated mentally but not expressed orally.

    "The Jesuits hold that neither intentional ambiguity nor the fact of making a mental reservation can be regarded as lying, since, in both cases, all that happens is that one's neighbor is not actually deceived, but rather his deception is permitted only for a justifiable cause.'''–'' The Power and Secret of the Jesuits," pp. 154, 155.

    The Jesuit Gury gives examples of this; among others he says:

    "Amand promised, under oath, to Marinus, that he would never reveal a theft committed by the latter .... But . . . Amand was called as a witness before the judge, and revealed the secret, after interrogation.

    "He ought not to have revealed the theft, . . . but he ought to have answered: 'I do not know anything,' understanding, 'nothing that I am obligated to reveal,' by using a mental restriction .... So Amand has committed a grave sin against religion and justice, by revealing publicly, before the court, a confided secret."–"The Doctrine of the Jesuits," translated by Paul Bert, Member of the Chamber of Deputies, Professor at the Faculty of Sciences (in Paris), pp. 168, 169, American edition. Boston:1880.

    Alphonsus de Liguori, the sainted Catholic doctor, says in "Tractatus de Secundo Decalogi Praecepto," on the second [third] precept of the decalogue:

    "One who is asked concerning something which it is expedient to conceal, can say, 'I say not,' that is, 'I say the word "not" since the word 'I say' has a double sense; for it signifies 'to pronounce' and 'to affirm':now in our sense 'I say' is the same as 'I pronounce.'

    "A prisoner, when lawfully questioned, can deny a crime even with an oath (at least without grievous sin), if as the result of his confession he is threatened with punishment of death, or imprisonment, or perpetual exile, or the loss of all his property, or the galleys, and similar punishments, by secretly understanding that he has not committed any crime of such a degree that he is bound to confess.

    "It is permissible to swear to anything which is false by adding in an undertone a true condition, if that low utterance can in any way be perceived by the other party, though its sense is not understood."–The Latin text, and an English translation of the above statements are found in "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome," by Father Chiniquy, chap. XIII, and in "Protestant Magazine," April, 1913, p. 163.


    http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/edwardson/facts/fof27.htm

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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