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Theme Changer

 Topic: Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)

 (Read 16190 times)
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  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     OP - September 03, 2014, 08:26 PM

    AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!! What the FUCK is the point. I feel so shit. This morning I felt better. Things were looking up. I had my therapy session at 9:15 and then a meeting/informal interview after. Great, I thought. Life is getting back on track. Now this. FUCK'S sake. I HATE depression.

    Ok, some background. Been Muslim for over 10 years, which I'm pretty sure I mentioned in my intro. Initially converted both for religious reasons and for marriage. Not ideal but since then my belief - my 'imaan' - flourished. Of course there are questions, so many questions.  But they have answers. Islam is so fu... [interrupted by phone call]
    ...
    [6 hours later]
    ...to continue where I left off: Islam is so fucking perfect that there's always an answer.  Even though it may sound absurd, defy logic, or make no sense, it still fits with the rest of what I call the framework of Islam. So my unease is checked, for a while. Then the same thing happens: some niggling issue bugs me till I just can't ignore any more. More questions. Ask the right imam, sheikh, student of knowledge  icon_blahblah and you get another fucking perfect answer. So the cycle continues, with each increasing climax of doubt happening around Ramadhan.

    Now I think I'm finally realising that I can't fool myself any more. I wanted to. I so badly wanted to. It's easier to keep doing what you're doing, bury your head in the sand, sweep it under the carpet. I've built my whole life around Islam: my diet, my friends, my social life, my job, my flat, the city I live in (yes I did a mini hijrah!) but most of all, my wife. This appears to be the end of my life as I know it, which is an extremely hard concept to get your head around. (Isn't denial a wonderful thing?) And to answer the question I hear you asking, no my marriage won't survive my apostasy, and no I can't keep it quiet. Thank God (or Christ, or Goodness, or Fuck, or whatever you want) we don't have kids. That really would be a mess.

    I don't know what I believe, but I do know that I don't want to go back to how I was before Islam happened, because I really did feel shit then - almost attempted suicide once. Thankfully I'm not that bad now, though there are times when I feel scarily close. Actually, there is one thing that I totally 110% believe, without a shadow of doubt (no, not even the shadow of a fucking black ant on a black stone on a moonless night): that we (humans, that is) are able to make ourselves believe, or let ourselves be made to believe, anything. The human mind is truly amazing. We're truly amazing. Trouble is, we can also be amazingly stupid.

    Ok, rant over. The phone call by the way (and the 6 hour gap in writing this post), was my new source of work, the same people I had the interview with this morning. They were calling with a job (I'm self employed - both a blessing and a curse when you're depressed). That was very good timing (alhamdulillah?) cause it calmed me down and gave me something to focus on, instead of sitting in my van feeling like the proverbial shit.

    Now, with 2 jobs under my belt for the day, I'm home and finishing this post. I need to get some food inside me. I skipped lunch and ate half a pack of Asda hob nobs instead. *sigh* On the bright side (yes, there always is one, if you look hard enough), I do feel better. And finishing this post has also helped Smiley just hope I didn't offend too many people in the process. But you were warned!

    Thank you for reading.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #1 - September 03, 2014, 08:53 PM

    AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!! ......... FUCK .......... shit. .......FUCK........... HATE........ depression.

    ......... Islam is so fucking....... imam, sheikh,.................  :blahblah................ Ramadhan.

    Quote
    ............ no my marriage won't survive my apostasy, and no I can't keep it quiet. Thank God (or Christ, or Goodness, or Fuck, or whatever you want)......................


    I don't know what I believe, ..............
    .................
    Thank you for reading.

    well that is not that bad jrg .,  not just faint heart like me.. any heart can read it jrg .. So do you feel better   after that FUCK ....... shit. .......FUCK........... HATE.................  :blahblah........  Cheesy

    Well cool down., Past is past ., no one can do anything about it.. What is important is future.  How do you know your marriage will not last? may be she is also feeling like you but outside she may be acting like Muslim lady.,  I think if both of you guys still love each other with-in Islam., there is nothing wrong in trying  to make her understand your point of view on religions in general.

    Do you disagree with me?

      So did you marry her after you were in to Islam or before you said this  



    damn that looks like chicken walking in circles. 

    with best wishes
    yeeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #2 - September 03, 2014, 09:23 PM

    yeez I love the way you selectively quoted my post!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    We married shortly after I said the dizzy chicken thing depicted above. She is from quite a religious family and we have already talked about this, more than once or twice. We had quite a frank conversation a few weeks ago, the conclusion of which was that if I don't stay a Muslim, we go our separate ways. And I'm not going to stay a Muslim if I don't believe it. Can't lie, not to myself or anyone else. Not any more. My wife firmly believes that chickens walk in circles and nothing I say or do will change that. Islam/Allah comes before everything/everyone else. Which I understand. Don't like it but I do understand it.

    I'm more or less accepting that this is how we move forward from the deathly silence that has descended upon our household for the past few weeks. (Again, glad this isn't happening with little'ns in the middle.) It's far from an ideal situation but at least I'm working again now, which gets me out the house and gives my wife some space. And the CBT (therapy) is really helping. Combined with being able to talk to people here, I'll be ok. Sometimes though, like earlier today, it all gets a bit much to bear. Though that was more venting than talking!
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #3 - September 03, 2014, 09:40 PM

    yeez I love the way you selectively quoted my post!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    We married shortly after I said the dizzy chicken thing depicted above. She is from quite a religious family................

    ............... the CBT (therapy) is really helping. Combined with being able to talk to people here, I'll be ok. Sometimes though, like earlier today, it all gets a bit much to bear. Though that was more venting than talking!

    Go for that CBT on cemb readers..    RASCALS ARE HAVING FUN HERE...  rain the rants    finmad  .,   .

    well   this forum is  built for that  built for Ranting  away.,   So do  as much as you like  jrg   Cheesy  

    As far as your marriage is concerned., if you  already let her know your views., then that should be good enough... Be polite and be friendly with her ., Tell her "there is no reason why a non-Muslim/Ex-Muslim guy can not be a friend with a Muslim lady" and tell her you are a friend and well wisher  to her for life...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #4 - September 03, 2014, 09:56 PM

    Thank you yeezevee
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #5 - September 03, 2014, 10:15 PM

    I can't help but like you after reading your rant. Smiley
    Keep fighting the good fight comrade.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #6 - September 07, 2014, 07:09 PM

    Does it sound odd that I absolutely loved reading your rant? You have such a gripping writing style! - or perhaps that was because you were ranting  Tongue
    But anyway, deep breaths! And I'm sure leaving Islam will be much calmer for you in the long run instead of continuing to believe only to get lost in a whirlwind of more self doubt and confusion. Smiley

    "A great fire burns within me, but no one stops to warm themselves at it, and passers-by only see a wisp of smoke."
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #7 - September 07, 2014, 07:35 PM

     cestlavie, thank you. I know what you mean.. I felt the same reading some of the other rants here. It feels good to get things out, and even better to get feedback and support from others who know what it's like.

    Some good news: Felt like shit this morning again, though my wife and I are talking now and things are better, on the whole. But I'm cautiously apprehensive. I may get dragged back into another cycle (perhaps even until the next fast) of being a semi believing and/or practicing Muslim. I hope the sterling translation that Abu Ali is doing will help keep me grounded. Also now I'm working again, it's keeping me on the road and away from unwanted influential company.

    Watch this space for more updates and rants!
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #8 - September 11, 2014, 10:12 AM

    Ugh. Well today I feel rubbish. Last night my wife and I had an argument about my smoking. I'm now banished from the garden! Either that or be locked out the flat. And I know that was a serious threat. Slept far too late last night, now today has got off to a bad start. Ugh. Sigh. Bloody hell, life is shit at times.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #9 - September 11, 2014, 12:32 PM

    The struggle with depression and religious deconversion doubts simultaneously sounds horrible. I don't know what to say, other than try not to wrack your mind too hard with these things. You've got a life to live man! Regardless of what happens with you and your wife, you can find some better way for you in the long run apart from the delusions of Islam.  far away hug

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #10 - September 11, 2014, 12:51 PM

    asbie, your comments are always helpful!  Smiley  thnkyu
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #11 - September 11, 2014, 01:01 PM

    You're welcome. Please always feel free to let us know how this situation is going and how it makes you feel. I promise there are interested and concerned parties here for you.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #12 - September 11, 2014, 01:04 PM

    Ugh. Well today I feel rubbish. Last night my wife and I had an argument about my smoking. I'm now banished from the garden! Either that or be locked out the flat. And I know that was a serious threat. Slept far too late last night, now today has got off to a bad start. Ugh. Sigh. Bloody hell, life is shit at times.


    Blech. Now that I think about it some more, I can't help but get the feeling that once you are finally ready to free yourself from these influences, your life will be much the better for it.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #13 - September 11, 2014, 01:32 PM

    Me too asbie, me too. Smiley
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #14 - December 24, 2014, 08:47 PM

    @jrg: I can image your problems, do you have any updates for us? You feel better now?

    I have some similar problems with my family and friends, but thanks God  Wink, I'm not married.

    But I also have some problems with depressions and ambivalence feelings about religion:
    "Should I believe, shouldn't I?"
    But I don't want too, it constricts me and it doesn't make sense." - "But everyone else does. What if they are right?" - "But what if they are wrong and I just waste my time?"  Aaaarrrgggghhhh  wacko

    But in the end, I think that you have to believe to believe  Wink you can't just pretend to believe.

    I'm also now interested in a non-muslim, or at least less muslim wife. However, I have the feeling the world is changing and people are getting more and more Islamic. Even Turkish people, who normally won't give a fuck about religion are getting more radical.

    Last month I met a women and gave her my number. Can you image what the first message was she wrote to me? "Are you a Sunni Muslim?" - WTF  finmad 
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #15 - December 24, 2014, 09:05 PM

    Actually, there is one thing that I totally 110% believe, without a shadow of doubt (no, not even the shadow of a fucking black ant on a black stone on a moonless night): that we (humans, that is) are able to make ourselves believe, or let ourselves be made to believe, anything. The human mind is truly amazing. We're truly amazing. Trouble is, we can also be amazingly stupid.



    This phenomenon is called Meme by Richard Dawnkins:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

    "In her book The Meme Machine, Susan Blackmore regards religions as particularly tenacious memes. Many of the features common to the most widely practiced religions provide built-in advantages in an evolutionary context, she writes. For example, religions that preach of the value of faith over evidence from everyday experience or reason inoculate societies against many of the most basic tools people commonly use to evaluate their ideas. By linking altruism with religious affiliation, religious memes can proliferate more quickly because people perceive that they can reap societal as well as personal rewards. The longevity of religious memes improves with their documentation in revered religious texts"
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #16 - June 25, 2016, 11:50 AM

    Well I've just read through this thread, and my opening post made me laugh Grin  Then reading yeezevee's replies made me laugh till I had to wipe tears from my eyes  Cheesy

    In light of the recent trend of resurrecting old threads, this seems an appropriate place to have a bit of an update. I don't have the energy to rant. Don't have the energy for much lately, thinking about it. 2 years Ramadhans on and here I am again. My wife's out teaching tajweed (she's very good at what she does) to a class of little people. Ugh. And I'm sat here, in our incredibly messy and cluttered flat, where not a single flat surface exists but there's stuff filling it. Clutter is like noise to me, and this flat is deafening

    I'm also listening to classical piano, which always helps to calm my mind, and longing for the day I can start learning to play. That would mean having probably an electric piano, as I'd need to practice for an hour every day, which currently isn't an option because it's haraaaaammm. Of course I could just do it anyway, but I want to keep the peace. It'd cause more trouble than it's worth., so I'll be patient.

    Of course, the thing that's most daunting to me, that will be the biggest change, and the one that I'm frankly terrified will send me into a depression deeper than I've ever known, is the inevitable divorce. That I think, is the only reason we've been 2 years without much change. But I can't go on like this. We're not living, we're existing. It's not fair on either of us. Not fair on me, as I can't stand seeing the Islamic things around the flat, the prayer mats, my wife's hijabs that never stay on the hangers properly, hijab pins that so easily get knocked off the corner they've been pushed on to, Qur'an games and flash cards and posters and worksheets and other teaching materials for my wife's classes, which have no proper home, because the flat is in such a terrible state. And it's not fair on my wife, because the fact I'm not practicing is making her depressed, which affects her home life, her work, her belief, her prayers, her everything.

    I long for the day I can live how I want to live, to be at home and actually relax, without Islam everywhere I look. I'm sure my wife feels the same, although neither of us have verbalised such desires. I've pretty much accepted that this is the end of our marriage, and whilst my wife may not have, she certainly knows it's a possibility. I know what needs to be done, but again I don't know how to do it. It's a bizarre situation, as we've been living for pretty much the past 2 years in a kind of impasse with my wife doing what she does, and me doing what I do, doing everything as a married couple would, apart from that which could result in 2 becoming 3. That in itself is another unspoken pressure on our relationship. Oh shit. How did we get here?

    I'm drained, exhausted, resigned to the fact that this is where things are going. Just not sure how to make it happen. I'm not looking for answers to these questions. That's not why I'm writing this post. That there are people here who can relate to my situation is reassuring and provides a light at the end of the tunnel.

    Right, I'm gonna scroll up now and re-read the words of our resident funnyman, The Yeez, to lighten my mood  grin12
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #17 - June 25, 2016, 12:20 PM

    I knew there was something I was leaving out. A complication which adds to the guilt I'm also feeling for what seems to be a foregone conclusion. My wife is sadly no longer in touch wit her family. They don't live in the UK, but we lived in their home for a few months, while my wife's vesa was being sorted out and our marriage formalised in their country. Us living under their roof, didn't go well. It ended in us being told in no uncertain terms that we weren't welcome. My wife was working there a the time and we had to find somehwere to live so we weren't under her parents' roof any more. It got that bad.

    So yes, that's another ingredient in this recipe of disaster, the emmense guilt I'd feel for literally leaving my wife with no one. God I feel like a piece of shit, shelfish, uncaring, callous bastard. Fuck life can be so shit at times. Why did I have to go asking so many questions about this damned religion, and if I had to ask them, why the bollocks cant it have been before we got married. Ah crap.  finmad finmad

    Still, life goes on.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #18 - June 25, 2016, 12:46 PM

    Fuck, jrg. It's seems like you're preparing yourself for something awfully hard. I wouldn't have the first clue of how to go about it so I won't offer any advice. But there are people who have gone through divorce, and a plethora of marriage issues on this forum, and I'm sure they'll be able to offer their experiences and perspectives on it.

    I hope things turn out well for you and your wife, and that things don't turn out to be quite so hard as you're imagining right now.  far away hug

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #19 - June 25, 2016, 12:51 PM

    I haven't got much advice for you, but I am sorry for the both of you.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #20 - June 25, 2016, 01:09 PM

    Thanks asbie, and three. I'm not expecting, or even looking for advice, really. Not consciously anyway. If it comes it'll be welcomed of course. I just need somewhere to rant and let things out, I suppose to keep some sort of time line, whilst allowing others to see one more story of a revert leaving Islam.

    I've just realised something whilst typing this: until this very moment, I've never understood why some people feel the need/desire to post what can be intensely personal information, on a public Internet forum. Now, I understand. Actually, no I don't understand it at all. But I know it helps.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #21 - June 25, 2016, 01:11 PM

    A problem shared is a problem halved.

    Well with the number of people reading this I should be fine  Grin
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #22 - June 25, 2016, 01:12 PM

    You know, I do have an idea. Perhaps you could craft an area of your home to be a sort of quiet area with prayer rug and desk, where your wife can do her prayers and her work. That would take care of some clutter and some of the Islamic stuff in the house. If you can put up curtains or cut it off somehow from the rest of the space...
    Getting some order back into your home will help you feel more relaxed, I am sure.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #23 - June 25, 2016, 01:30 PM

    Well, shit. If God does exists he's a fucking prick quite frankly.

    Why put people through all these problems? I'm really sorry that you got caught in that. I rasied a Muslim, can't fathom how I'm supposed to take marriage.

    I want to be with a (Ex) Muslim Woman but I don't know if she will accept me for life. What if it's okay at first but then she changes her expectations about my beliefs? What about her family? Because a muslim marriage is almost like marrying the family also.

    What about the high unlikelihood that I regain my faith and she's a non-believer and vice versa (if she is an ex-muslim). You see I've dated religious Muslim women before and it's not been that much of a problem. But marriage is a whole other ball game. I don't have the zealous personality to follow and adhere to something so closelyl I can't be a headless chicken.

    So in my mid-20s looking onto my 30s. What the hell do I do? How do I marry someone both I and my family are okay with? How dod I get completely accepted by her and her family also? And can we maintain our religious secret(s)?
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #24 - June 25, 2016, 01:41 PM

    You're right, separate areas and spaces is something we desperately need. I'm actually starting a new contract soon, which means I'll be working evenings and finishing around midnight to 1pm. That will give me some time in the late morning/early afternoon to work on the flat. Basically what's happened is we've had... I can't believe I'm saying this but it's 100% true... we've held on to possessions for years and years that haven't been seen, never mind used. The same unopened boxes moved from flat to flat. Neither of us seem capable of getting rid of what we don't actually use or need. It's madness, but I do know we're far from alone in this respect.

    Initially my reaction to your curtained prayer/study/office area was that it wouldn't be possible as our flat isn't huge. However it could work, and certainly the shelves that hold most of the Islamic materials, could have a curtain, or even doors, added.

    Now I'm seeing a bit of an opening to make this work.

    Thank you, three.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #25 - June 25, 2016, 01:55 PM

    Aaaahh life's little pleasures: Nutella on toast with a cup of Carte Noire espresso Smiley
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #26 - June 25, 2016, 01:56 PM

    I knew a couple who had some unopened boxes like that, through a move. They kept them in the garage for two years and then donated them, still unopened, to the local charity.  Maybe you can use Ramadhan as an excuse to do the same..
    Sometimes as we bring order to our surroundings we also bring order to our internal selves. I hope this happens with you, and that you have a bit of fun with it, too.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #27 - June 25, 2016, 01:59 PM

    Well, shit. If God does exists he's a fucking prick quite frankly.

     Cheesy  amen to that!
  • Not for the faint hearted (you have been warned)
     Reply #28 - June 25, 2016, 02:02 PM

    I knew a couple who had some unopened boxes like that, through a move. They kept them in the garage for two years and then donated them, still unopened, to the local charity.  Maybe you can use Ramadhan as an excuse to do the same..
    Sometimes as we bring order to our surroundings we also bring order to our internal selves. I hope this happens with you, and that you have a bit of fun with it, too.


    I love getting rid of stuff. My wife however, is somewhat more attached to her things, than I am to mine.

    That's what I call it, "getting rid of it". That can mean charity, a friend who may actually have some use for whatever it may be, recycling, the rubbish bin or taking to the tip, which conveniently is just a few minutes away. And I have a big van. So there's no excuse really  whistling2
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