FGM

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- Hosna
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OP - September 08, 2014, 02:28 PM

I have a teacher that claims fgm is Islamic because Muslims practice it.
Example the kaba was a place of worship before Islam and if you use the same argument for fgm not being Muslim or Christian just because the believers of that faith practice it, it would mean the kaba is not Islamic.

what do u guys think?
- yeezevee
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Reply #1 - September 08, 2014, 02:41 PM

Quote from: Hosna on September 08, 2014, 02:28 PM
I have a teacher that claims fgm is Islamic because Muslims practice it.
Example the kaba was a place of worship before Islam and if you use the same argument for fgm not being Muslim or Christian just because the believers of that faith practice it, it would mean the kaba is not Islamic.

what do u guys think?

hello Hosna ., well clearly it is not there in Quran.. but..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsqEyGdLh8I#t=21

and ..and http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=208&start=0&sid=2126553deb2124a9c4b0b960d2c8c4bc

read through that..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #2 - September 08, 2014, 03:36 PM

i know there are hadiths that back it up. But muslims that dont belive in those hadiths say its not islam.
Also the ones that preforme the act are women so are they realy oppressed?
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Reply #3 - September 08, 2014, 03:43 PM

Quote from: Hosna on September 08, 2014, 03:36 PM
i know there are hadiths that back it up. But muslims that dont belive in those hadiths say its not islam.

well I am an opportunist SO I AGREE WITH THOSE MUSLIMS., Yes FGM is not here in Quran, FGM is not Islam and nothing to do with Islam. Hence Muslims must work hard to ban that brutal brainless genital mutilations of little girls
Quote
Also the ones that preforme the act are women so are they realy oppressed?

often religious people women and men don't know and do not understand the meaning of religious oppression., the rigorous religious brain wash they undergo since their birth will not all them to question such oppressive religious rituals.

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Reply #4 - September 08, 2014, 03:43 PM

Quote
Female genital mutilation (FGM) is any procedure involving the partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs and is often performed on girls between the ages of 4 and 14 to ensure their virginity until marriage. FGM has no foundation in Islamic scripture or law; however, in the West it is mainly practiced in Muslim communities

http://theahafoundation.org/issues/female-genital-mutilation/

(US based site.)

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- Yume
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Reply #5 - September 08, 2014, 03:51 PM

Quote from: Hosna on September 08, 2014, 03:36 PM

Also the ones that preforme the act are women so are they realy oppressed?

From my experience women can be just as annoying as men
- Hosna
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Reply #6 - September 08, 2014, 04:01 PM

I agree that its not islam but .... he is very much hard on the fact that its religion. i think he is anti theist.
what to do? i need to be able to discusse with him. I just dont know how to top the kaba argument
- Hosna
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Reply #7 - September 08, 2014, 04:04 PM

Its true that religious people don't know they are being oppressed but we from the outside can see.
He doesn't believe its oppression because they carry out the ritual and said its just the way the world works. LOL I think he might be trolling us but im not sure
- Nikolaj
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Reply #8 - September 08, 2014, 04:30 PM

For those who do it and say it is Islam it is their Islam.

However there are only a few allegedly weak hadiths prescribing the practice.

Al-Azhar University has though made several fatwas on it through times either declaring it fard or sunnah. And that is to my knowledge also the orthodox stance in the four Sunni madhabs, Despite that very large populations of Muslims have never practiced FGM especially in Pakistan and India where I only know of reports from the small Bohra minority where activists try to stop the practice.

These days Al-Azhar condemns it but when the Muslim Brotherhood was in power in Egypt Morsi reportedly wanted Al-Azhar to change its position again.

It is also practiced by Christians and animists in large numbers in Africa. And the worst kind is named "Pharaonic" (mostly used in Egypt, Sudan and Somalia to my knowledge) where everything are cut out and the girl is sewn together again. I doubt it would be called "Pharaonic" if it was tied 1:1 to Islam.

Kurds are also known to do it so it is not tied solely to the upper half of Africa and happens on the Arab peninsula too.

In Indonesia a "light" form of FGM is widely practiced among the Muslim population. I think I read somewhere that it was unheard of there until Islam came. So they probably adopted it from the cool Arab kids they traded with.

Here is a short documentary about FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHLf0bOJwZM

Regarding your teacher I would look at the non-Muslim practices of FGM prevalent in Africa.

And the Kabaa has non-Islamic origins. Except if you buy that Abraham placed it there and Abraham was Muslim, of course.

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- Cornflower
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Reply #9 - September 08, 2014, 04:43 PM

The very least, according to classical fiqh and the school of laws, that can be said about circumcision of the clitoris is that it's legal/allowed. So if we're gonna be really anal about the shariah, prohibiting the practice by law would actually be unIslamic. However, mutilation of the genitals in other parts is not part of Islamic practice based on the texts. But it is definitely a Muslim practice adopted by "Muslim culture".

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- Hosna
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Reply #10 - September 08, 2014, 04:54 PM

His point is it doesn't mater if its not in any religious book or not, as long as the believer of the faith practices IT IT BECOMES RELIGION.
if muslims started to eat pork al of a sudden then it would be islam. if hindues started to eat mold then that would be hinduism
because religion is a group thing.

I dont agree a hundred% with him
- Nikolaj
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Reply #11 - September 08, 2014, 05:05 PM

There are Muslims who are practicing but they don't do FGM at all. So by that logic FGM is not part of Islam.

Personally I think he sounds uneducated on the issue. And I'm only an artisan, not a university graduate.

What class and what level is the teacher lecturing?

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Reply #12 - September 08, 2014, 05:12 PM

I get what he wants to say, and to some extent he is right. Religion is what its followers make it to be. There is no "pure" and original form of Islam. If we would go back 500 years, I think Islam would've been very different even those who would claim to follow the scriptures. Go back 1000 years, or 1400 years and there would be even greater differences. I don't even think that the Islam today, even the "purist" sunni or salafi Islam would be anything near what Islam was 1400 years ago. However, what he does is that he takes it to extremes, because then every single thing that Muslims would do and say would be "Islamic" even the contradictory practices or practices that explicitly goes against the scriptures and that just doesn't make sense. In all honestly, I don't think he takes this argument of his to the same extent with Christians or other religions but I could be wrong.

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- Hosna
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Reply #13 - September 08, 2014, 06:31 PM

its first level a religion course uni
- Hosna
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Reply #14 - September 08, 2014, 06:42 PM

mm i see his point to its kind of good because it lets groups like ahmadia room to call room to cal themselves Muslims and that's nice
- Nikolaj
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Reply #15 - September 08, 2014, 07:33 PM

But then he would probably say that declaring Ahmadis non-Muslims is also Islamic

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Reply #16 - September 08, 2014, 07:43 PM

lol true
- bogart
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Reply #17 - September 09, 2014, 05:47 AM

If you break down the monolithic dogma that Islam, or any religion, has always been completely united his views are not really wrong. Each group holds and justifies it's view of what monolithic Islam is, why they follow it and why other groups are wrong. So there are multiple opinions of what true monolithic Islam is. X is true for group A, X is false for group B. However the mistake would be assuming that X is true for B because it is true for A.
- Nikolaj
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Reply #18 - November 11, 2014, 10:42 PM

Came across this Norwegian documentary on the struggle against FGM told by the local peoples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7p0tXIcIzM

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- countjulian
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Reply #19 - November 11, 2014, 11:21 PM

Klingschor's article on this is fantastic:

http://klingschor.blogspot.com/2014/10/female-circumcision-fgm-in-islam.html?view=magazine

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Reply #20 - November 12, 2014, 05:11 AM

We are getting mixed messages about FGM. I have heard (YouTube) many Muslim scholars insist that it is religious requirement. But then there are "moderate" Muslims who say that it has nothing to do with Islam. Who is right? Indonesians did not practice FGM till recently but now it is being promoted as religious requirement by Indonesian Muslim scholars and the government. I saw a video from Indonesia - prepubescent girls were lined up to undergo the FGM procedure. After the operation, each girl got a copy of the Quran (in Arabic!!) and some candy. It was hard to watch. The girls were terrified and crying. At least, the video did not show the actual procedure - it showed before and after video.

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- Cornflower
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Reply #21 - November 12, 2014, 09:35 AM

Beyond reasonable doubt, the circumscision of the clitoris has basis within the shariah and religious texts. The very least that can be said is that Mo never prohobited it, on the contrary he was confronted with the practice and gave some "instructions" about it. In usool and fiqh, this has very strong implications.

The thing with "moderate" Muslims and apologists is that they use double speech. FGM is the complete mutilation and cutting of the vagina, like they do in Somalia, which IS haram. This is what they're talking about. But the cutting and circumcision of the clit is the Islamic practice, but Muslims would never refer to it as MUTILATION for obvious reasons.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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