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 Topic: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...

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  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #60 - October 05, 2014, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 04, 2014, 03:54 PM
    The dispiriting thing is that the nuances Exmuslims could provide in the critique of Islam are never really given space, its left to the likes of Maher and Harriss who come at it from their own angle, and the realisation that relativist Lefties when push comes to shove look the other way and effectively snuff Exmuslims and all critique of Islam out, essentially giving a blasphemy / apostasy code when it comes to Islam.




    As much as I'd like to sympathise with you on this, I think it's not really possible for ex-muslims to develop very nuanced criticisms of islam because they're still profoundly invested in a humanistic dichotomy between authoritarianism and freedom — a bankrupt ontology, as it were. I don't expect the majority of ex-muslims to approach islam from the point of an Althusserian (or Foucauldian) antihumanism as apostasy for the most part still takes place constricted within a binary framework.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #61 - October 05, 2014, 07:10 PM
    Ooops. Wrong thread.
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #62 - October 05, 2014, 10:52 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 04, 2014, 04:08 PM
    Yup, think those living 'in the belly of the beast' would be taken more seriously a la Maajid Nawaz.


    I keep saying it Ali A Rizvi, he's some kind of a God.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #63 - October 05, 2014, 11:03 PM
    Ali A. Rizvi is ex-Shia. So he doesn't count. Also i think he is mostly busy teasing Kashif on Facebook.

    And now we need a tube...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIsK2RkbmPc
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #64 - October 05, 2014, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Nikolaj on October 05, 2014, 11:03 PM
    Ali A. Rizvi is ex-Shia. So he doesn't count. Also i think he is mostly busy teasing Kashif on Facebook.

    And now we need a tube...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIsK2RkbmPc

    Hell fire and hang him high on crane lift  from   the Tehran Square,,  Or make one Square in Lahore ... Rascal talks rubbish about Allah religion....

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #65 - October 05, 2014, 11:45 PM
    Nonsense, Nikolaj posting a youtube clip doesn't replace you yeez.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #66 - October 06, 2014, 11:35 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 05, 2014, 11:16 PM
    Hell fire and hang him high on crane lift  from   the Tehran Square,,  Or make one Square in Lahore ... Rascal talks rubbish about Allah religion....
     

    Jeez Yeez, did you just put a Fatwa out on Ali A Rizvi?Huh?
    Quote from: Nikolaj on October 05, 2014, 11:03 PM
    Ali A. Rizvi is ex-Shia. So he doesn't count. Also i think he is mostly busy teasing Kashif on Facebook.

    No matter, he's still my hero. :-P
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #67 - October 06, 2014, 11:53 AM
    Having read some of the commentary online, I'm even more convinced that lots of lefties and Muslims just don't want any criticism of Islam at all, like the apostasy codes, rather than wanting better forms of critique that don't lapse into notions that all Muslims are responsible for extremism etc etc

    That is bad news for Exmuslims, because it means the layers of taboos to be heard are multiple.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #68 - October 06, 2014, 12:00 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 06, 2014, 11:53 AM
    I'm even more convinced that lots of lefties ... just don't want any criticism of Islam at all,

    I'm getting this on my Twitter. It's asinine.

    There's no point arguing with them, and on the rare occasions I make a tangential point that I hope will nudge them towards non-dogmatic thought, it flies straight over their head.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #69 - October 06, 2014, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 06, 2014, 11:53 AM
    Having read some of the commentary online, I'm even more convinced that lots of lefties and Muslims just don't want any criticism of Islam at all, like the apostasy codes, rather than wanting better forms of critique that don't lapse into notions that all Muslims are responsible for extremism etc etc

    That is bad news for Exmuslims, because it means the layers of taboos to be heard are multiple.



    I agree 100%

    I see this daily especially now with the geopolitical climate in relation to "islamic extremists"

    youtube comments are some of the most fun/rage-inducing to read
    The more you try and obtain nirvana, the further you are from it.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #70 - October 07, 2014, 10:45 AM
    Quote from: schizo on October 05, 2014, 06:34 PM
    As much as I'd like to sympathise with you on this, I think it's not really possible for ex-muslims to develop very nuanced criticisms of islam because they're still profoundly invested in a humanistic dichotomy between authoritarianism and freedom — a bankrupt ontology, as it were. I don't expect the majority of ex-muslims to approach islam from the point of an Althusserian (or Foucauldian) antihumanism as apostasy for the most part still takes place constricted within a binary framework.


    You and I seem to think alike on this only that I don't have words to express better but I will for the sake of enriching discussions about this

    Neverthless I still feel apostasy and persecution of apostates ought to be exposed and discussed in mainstream media as its more important than hearing white liberal atheists making generalization on Islam as it seems to be their favourite pastime
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #71 - October 07, 2014, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: Cato on October 07, 2014, 10:45 AM
    You and I seem to think alike on this only that I don't have words to express better but I will for the sake of enriching discussions about this

    Neverthless I still feel apostasy and persecution of apostates ought to be exposed and discussed in mainstream media as its more important than hearing white liberal atheists making generalization on Islam as it seems to be their favourite pastime


    Agreed.

    What we ideally need is a confluence of voices from the radical left talking about apostasy and persecution.

    Quick checklist:

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Neocon
    Ibn Warraq - J. S. Mill type progressive conservative
    Ali Sina - delusional idiot.
    Ali A. Rizvi - Populist.
    Faisal Saeed - populist.

    Liberal muslims:
    Mona Eltahawy - postmodern, far too invested in western hermeneutical analysis without firm grounding in historical materialism. I.E: still sees islam in binary terms.
    Asma Barlas - The Same.
    Ziauddin Sardar - comes across as the same in books, comes across as a demagog in his more polemical articles. Slippery snake.
    Abdullahi An-Na'im - uses Mahmoud Mohammed  Taha's metaphysical ontology. Although I admire what he's doing not many people are going to take him seriously.

    Sad really.

    We need a historical materialist to go on TV/write for a publication and beat the shit out of this argument for once and all. Both as an antidote to liberal postmodernists, and privileged white atheists.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #72 - October 07, 2014, 11:56 AM
    Quote from: Cato on October 07, 2014, 10:45 AM
    ...........................

    Neverthless I still feel   apostasy and persecution of apostates ought to be exposedand discussed in mainstream media as its more important than hearing white liberal atheists making generalization on Islam as it seems to be their favourite pastime

    Yes .. yes.. good feeling good talking Cato .,  Yes we should talk about these stupid fools  apostates on  mainstream media in London, New York,  Denmark , Sweden, Germany ..

    We should NEVER TALK ABOUT THESE  things in  UN or  in the capitals of the  countries such as  Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Nigeria, Iran, Turkey, Morocco, Sudan,  Iraq, Yemen, FUCKING SAND LAND, Malaysia,  Mali, Afghanistan, Algeria and what not.. There we should never allow mainstream media speak about these idiots who left Islam. Allah willing they will be  perused back to Islam,  other wise Allah hoo Akabaaar..

    Oh well news says Kurds use new tactic against ISIS with female suicide bomber

    Quote
    Kurdish fighters battling Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) jihadists for the Syrian town of Kobane employed a new tactic when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in an attack claimed to have killed dozens of militants.


    That is the news.. yes.. it is a right technique against ISIS Islamic heroes .. we should teach that to all Muslim females


    and that is the girl Her name apparently was   Dilar Gencxemis ..

    Oh well   we all should all  become suicide bombers to fight religious nuts and religious stupidities . But we should never question  fucking religions and their voodoo dolls and  the fools who pray or bend their ass up in to sky...

    schizo says Agreed to Cato
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 11:42 AM
    Agreed.

    and yeezevee agree with schizo.. lua agrees with yeezevee.. cornflower agree with lua and billy agrees with corn flower .AbuAli agrees with billy....    da..da.dA..DA.. Layers upon layers ..   I am peeling onion,  my eyes are burning..

    I think only guy who doesn't agree with any one appears to be that Happymurtad..  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #73 - October 07, 2014, 11:57 AM
    Yup agreed you two. Analysis of power play is needed in these discussions and also arguments not based around either Theism or Humanism being 'right'.

    Both Theism and Humanism have their own assumptions not based entirely in reality, though I would argue that Humanism leads to a healthier society overall from a ideological POV.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #74 - October 07, 2014, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 07, 2014, 11:56 AM
    Yes .. yes.. good feeling good talking Cato .,  Yes we should talk about these stupid fools  apostates on  mainstream media in London, New York,  Denmark , Sweden, Germany ..

    You should NEVER TALK ABOUT THESE  things in  UN or  in the capitals of the  countries such as  Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Nigeria, Iran, Turkey, Morocco Morocco, Sudan,  Iraq, Yemen, FUCKING SAND LAND, Malaysia Mali, Afghanistan, Algeria and what not.. There we should never allow mainstream media speak about these idiots who left Islam. Allah willing they should perused back to Islam other wise Allah hoo Akabaaar..

    Oh well news says Kurds use new tactic against ISIS with female suicide bomber

    Tat is the news.. yes.. it is a right technique against ISIS Islamic heroes .. we should teach that to all Muslim females

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    and that is the girl Her name apparently was   Dilar Gencxemis ..

    Oh well   we all should all  become suicide bombers to fight religious nuts and religious stupidities . But We should never question  fucking religions and their voodoo dolls and  the fools who pray or bend their ass up in to sky...


    Hehe, yeez, your way with words and the sarcasm dripping from your posts sometimes is legend dairy!

    On another note, what is happening in Kobane is so sad, RIP all the Kurdish fighters there!
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #75 - October 07, 2014, 12:26 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 05, 2014, 06:34 PM
    I think it's not really possible for ex-muslims to develop very nuanced criticisms of islam

    Quote from: Cato on October 07, 2014, 10:45 AM
    You and I seem to think alike on this

    But you two are the exception to the rule, right?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #76 - October 07, 2014, 12:46 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 12:26 PM
    But you two are the exception to the rule, right?


    If you would perhaps insist upon being less polemical and carrying out an assiduous reading of my argument...
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #77 - October 07, 2014, 12:48 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 07, 2014, 11:59 AM
    Hehe, yeez, ...............

    Lilyesque .. I don't know how to respond to   Doubting Tomas .. I don't know what to say to him..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #78 - October 07, 2014, 12:55 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 12:46 PM
    If you would perhaps insist upon being less polemical and carrying out an assiduous reading of my argument...

    Quote from: schizo on October 05, 2014, 06:34 PM
    As much as I'd like to sympathise with you on this, I think it's not really possible for ex-muslims to develop very nuanced criticisms of islam because they're still profoundly invested in a humanistic dichotomy between authoritarianism and freedom — a bankrupt ontology, as it were. I don't expect the majority of ex-muslims to approach islam from the point of an Althusserian (or Foucauldian) antihumanism as apostasy for the most part still takes place constricted within a binary framework.


    Hi schizo,  may be you are using very complex English words     such as "assiduous.. Althusserian .....(or Foucauldian) ...antihumanism ...binary framework.. and what not,  to defend your views on these Pro-Islamic and ant-Islamic debates.,     That could be the reason why you see this  polemical stuff   in the posts of others..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #79 - October 07, 2014, 01:06 PM
    Be that as it may, there was no need for Ishina to needlessly straw man my argument.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #80 - October 07, 2014, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 01:06 PM
    Be that is it may, there was no need for Ishina to needlessly straw man my argument.

    yes..  yes... ..you got a point there schizo .....  Be that is it may,    ... Be that is it may.........

    well let me watch this  on Ben Affleck...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxr85XzMYFk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PytnPt2v5h4

    what the fuck..  holy shit...  holy religious brains...

    anyways  some news says  Gone Girl vs Happy New Year: SRK to compete with Ben Affleck at box office this Diwali  Well with that clip Ben Affleck movie could hit box offices in many countries .. may be not in Israel  because that fellow appears to be a Jewish..  But many other countries around Israel including those ISIS heroes will be happy to see   Ben Affleck and his movie..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #81 - October 07, 2014, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: Cato on October 07, 2014, 10:45 AM
    only that I don't have words to express better

    You have all the words anyone needs.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #82 - October 07, 2014, 01:27 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 12:46 PM
    If you would perhaps insist upon being less polemical and carrying out an assiduous reading of my argument...

    You forfeit the privilege of complaining about polemics when you paint ex-muslims with broad strokes, here of all places.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #83 - October 07, 2014, 01:29 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 11:42 AM
    Agreed.

    What we ideally need is a confluence of voices from the radical left talking about apostasy and persecution.

    Quick checklist:

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Neocon
    Ibn Warraq - J. S. Mill type progressive conservative
    Ali Sina - delusional idiot.
    Ali A. Rizvi - Populist.
    Faisal Saeed - populist.

    Liberal muslims:
    Mona Eltahawy - postmodern, far too invested in western hermeneutical analysis without firm grounding in historical materialism. I.E: still sees islam in binary terms.
    Asma Barlas - The Same.
    Ziauddin Sardar - comes across as the same in books, comes across as a demagog in his more polemical articles. Slippery snake.
    Abdullahi An-Na'im - uses Mahmoud Mohammed  Taha's metaphysical ontology. Although I admire what he's doing not many people are going to take him seriously.

    Sad really.

    We need a historical materialist to go on TV/write for a publication and beat the shit out of this argument for once and all. Both as an antidote to liberal postmodernists, and privileged white atheists.


    Missed this post. What do you make of Maajid Nawaz and others at Quilliam?
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #84 - October 07, 2014, 01:40 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 01:06 PM
    Be that is it may, there was no need for Ishina to needlessly straw man my argument.

    I wasn't strawmaning your argument. Your argument was that ex-muslims cannot offer nuanced criticism of Islam because they have a bankrupt ontology. My comment was not paraphrasing your argument at all. It was an invitation for you two to say where you fit into that crude and lazy generalisation, given that you are both ex-muslims.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #85 - October 07, 2014, 01:43 PM
    In the way you're defining it, I'm not an ex-muslim. I'm a materialistic atheist.
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #86 - October 07, 2014, 01:45 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 07, 2014, 01:29 PM
    Missed this post. What do you make of Maajid Nawaz and others at Quilliam?


    Nawaz seems to want to boost his profile, from what I've observed.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #87 - October 07, 2014, 01:47 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 01:43 PM
    In the way you're defining it, I'm not an ex-muslim. I'm a materialistic atheist.

    I have not defined anything.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #88 - October 07, 2014, 01:51 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 01:43 PM
    In the way you're defining it, I'm not an ex-muslim. I'm a materialistic atheist.


    Do you support positive not negative definitions of self. So defining yourself by what you are, not by what you are not?

    Also yes, do think Nawaz is trying to boost his profile, but some of what he says is good stuff. Feel like it will not make any huge dent into the Islamic communities unfortunately.

    The terms associated with Muslim need to be changed. Instead of non-practising, moderate and radical, need to change to non-religious, reformist, non-militant and militant.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #89 - October 07, 2014, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 01:47 PM
    I have not defined anything.


    I'm really not interested in responding to your petulant trolling but here you go.

    Most ex-muslims will negatively define themselves against a so-called "muslim" identity. This identity may possess multiplicities and variations, but at the end of the day it is a single cohesive whole with schizophrenic overlap (to plagiarise Deleuzian terminology.) It can deterritorialise and reterritorialise according to geography but it still remains islam (in essence) according to the ex-muslim psyche.

    For me, and perhaps Cato, however, we do not see islam as this cohesive whole. In a sense my contention is that islam doesn't really exist as such because noone knows what it is. I'm not arguing this from a point of multiplicity but from a point of economic and historical praxis. So to be totally Hegelian about this: islam is islam but not islam because it's constantly involved in a negation of negation as syntheses (aufheben) emerge and new contradictions are established.
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