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 Topic: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...

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  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #90 - October 07, 2014, 02:04 PM
    Petulant trolling? I threw you a couple of soft balls, completely on topic. No need to shit yourself about it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #91 - October 07, 2014, 02:09 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 02:04 PM
    Petulant trolling? I threw you a couple of soft balls, completely on topic. No need to shit yourself about it.


    Exactly this, You're doing it in this post...
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #92 - October 07, 2014, 02:13 PM
    I'm sorry that I didn't treat your turgid over-cooked arguments with the respect you feel they deserve.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #93 - October 07, 2014, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 01:40 PM
    I wasn't strawmaning your argument. Your argument was that ex-muslims cannot offer nuanced criticism of Islam because they have a bankrupt ontology. My comment was not paraphrasing your argument at all. It was an invitation for you two to say where you fit into that crude and lazy generalisation, given that you are both ex-muslims.


    I didn't say ex-muslims in general but many i have come across online with a good number of exceptional ones of course. I noticed most of their criticism is predictably one-dimensional without acknowledging political,cultural,economical and sociological factors at play and doing so only helps distort the reality of the problems going on in muslim world(and a diverse world). I can understand if its someone that become an apostate recently since I have been there before.
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #94 - October 07, 2014, 02:17 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 02:13 PM
    I'm sorry that I didn't treat your turgid over-cooked arguments with the respect you feel they deserve.


    Hardly turgid. Just not eurocentric (or islamo-centric, even.)
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #95 - October 07, 2014, 02:21 PM
    Quote from: Cato on October 07, 2014, 02:15 PM
    I didn't say ex-muslims in general but many i have come across online with a good number of exceptional ones of course. I noticed most of their criticism is predictably one-dimensional without acknowledging political,cultural,economical and sociological factors at play and doing so only helps distort the reality of the problems going on in muslim world(and a diverse world). I can understand if its someone that become an apostate recently since I have been there before.

    You should perhaps open your social circle wider.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #96 - October 07, 2014, 02:24 PM
    Duly noted, Madame. I will do that. Afro
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #97 - October 07, 2014, 02:41 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 02:17 PM
    Hardly turgid. Just not eurocentric (or islamo-centric, even.)

    Is it not a double standard to give Islam the benefit of pluralism and insist it is impossible to sum up, but to view ex-Islam through such a narrow and judgemental lens? Surely there are potentially as many variations of ex-Islam as there are of Islam.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #98 - October 07, 2014, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 02:41 PM
    Is it not a double standard to give Islam the benefit of pluralism and insist it is impossible to sum up, but to view ex-Islam through such a narrow and judgemental lens? Surely there are potentially as many variations of ex-Islam as there are of Islam.


    No. ex-islam is an identity that is static. islam is an identity that constantly folds and collapses into itself to regenerate, new, fluid configurations.

    Ex-islam (in its present form) cannot accumulate praxis. Islam is praxis. And that is precisely why it doesn't exist.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #99 - October 07, 2014, 02:49 PM
    Ex-Islam is a mere point of fact, not necessarily an identity. Alone it says next to nothing about an individual's thoughts and values. It says less than Islam.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #100 - October 07, 2014, 02:50 PM
    Yes it does. It contends that one apostatised from a binary artificiality. But people shouldn't apostatise. They should abandon.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #101 - October 07, 2014, 02:51 PM
    That's a distinction without difference.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #102 - October 07, 2014, 02:53 PM
    There is a very significant difference. When you apostatise, you abandon what is characterised as islam. When you abandon, you don't abandon islam so much as you abandon erroneous thought processes. If one abandons these thought processes one cannot claim to be an ex-muslim because the idea itself is tautologically incoherent. How can you claim to be an ex of something that doesn't exist?
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #103 - October 07, 2014, 02:56 PM
    This is what I meant by a double standard. You speak as though there are infinite Islams, but only one single process of apostasy and resulting orientation.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #104 - October 07, 2014, 02:57 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 02:53 PM
    How can you claim to be an ex of something that doesn't exist?

    I'm not the one saying Islam does not exist.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #105 - October 07, 2014, 03:06 PM
    Whilst the idea of apostasy itself is incomputable it endeavours to approximate to a utilitarian AIXI. Hence the intent is to calibrate to achieve maximum gain by abandoning a previous system.

    But my argument is different. If there is no system, one cannot add to a set (even in terms of linear half-open intervals.) Hence, apostasy must be by definition a linear process as it is based on systematic development and not dialectical regeneration.
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #106 - October 07, 2014, 03:09 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 02:56 PM
    This is what I meant by a double standard. You speak as though there are infinite Islams, but only one single process of apostasy and resulting orientation.


    I do not speak of infinite islams. The position of infinite islams is a postmodern one, destroying all metanarratives to capitulate to a ghastly permissive liberalism. My contention is that things called islams do not exist and are mere manifestations of praxis. They may adopt the representation of islam, but they are grounded in concrete material conditions. Without a firm grounding in dialectics it is impossible to understand this.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #107 - October 07, 2014, 03:13 PM
    Schizo, would you agree that strands of Islam exists if not Islam itself?

    If so can you be an apostate from a strand but not from Islam per say?

    Would you also agree that though ex-Muslim might not be terminologically correct, it is a good label to apply to people who have left strains of Islam? This is in order to provide the best care to these people due to similarities in the oppression they have from their communities?

    This is though Dyslexia (which I have) I do not agree is a disability, I do think it is a good label to gain help with writing and the like. The label facilitates the help, but shouldn't be limiting as there are things dyslexics and ex-shia Muslims (for example) are better at. In the case of the ex-shia, identifying the issues in at least the shia strain of Islam.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #108 - October 07, 2014, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 03:06 PM
    Whilst the idea of apostasy itself is incomputable it endeavours to approximate to a utilitarian AIXI. Hence the intent is to calibrate to achieve maximum gain by abandoning a previous system.

    But my argument is different. If there is no system, one cannot add to a set (even in terms of linear half-open intervals.) Hence, apostasy must be by definition a linear process as it is based on systematic development and not dialectical regeneration.

    But there is no single apostate or process of apostasy, which is my point. To speak of its intent or nature in terms of a single formula is flawed insight.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #109 - October 07, 2014, 03:19 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 03:09 PM
    I do not speak of infinite islams. The position of infinite islams is a postmodern one, destroying all metanarratives to capitulate to a ghastly permissive liberalism. My contention is that things called islams do not exist and are mere manifestations of praxis. They may adopt the representation of islam, but they are grounded in concrete material conditions. Without a firm grounding in dialectics it is impossible to understand this.

    This would amount to disregarding what people are referring to when they say Islam in a context and substituting it with your own pre-rehearsed musings. You'd not even be strawmanning them. You'd basically just be arguing with yourself.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #110 - October 07, 2014, 03:26 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 03:14 PM
    But there is no single apostate or process of apostasy, which is my point. To speak of its intent or nature in terms of a single formula is flawed insight.


    You're missing my point here. Whilst there are divergences in apostasy the act of apostasy itself takes place within a linear system. It doesn't matter whether there are varying ways to get to the end of the road, at present the manner in which islam and apostasy is conceptualised means that the process is still mathematically the same and requires closure.
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #111 - October 07, 2014, 03:32 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 03:19 PM
    This would amount to disregarding what people are referring to when they say Islam in a context and substituting it with your own pre-rehearsed musings. You'd not even be strawmanning them. You'd basically just be arguing with yourself.


    You have no idea what you're talking about. But you're too proud to admit that.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #112 - October 07, 2014, 03:37 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 03:32 PM
    You have no idea what you're talking about. But you're too proud to admit that.

    This stock response was available for either of us to use at this point. But I'd feel kinda cheap using it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #113 - October 07, 2014, 03:41 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 03:26 PM
    You're missing my point here. Whilst there are divergences in apostasy the act of apostasy itself takes place within a linear system. It doesn't matter whether there are varying ways to get to the end of the road, at present the manner in which islam and apostasy is conceptualised means that the process is still mathematically the same and requires closure.

    I'm not missing your point. I don't agree with your point. It is an oversimplification. One that serves your argument well, but doesn't fairly or usefully represent the reality of apostasy.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #114 - October 07, 2014, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 07, 2014, 03:13 PM
    Schizo, would you agree that strands of Islam exists if not Islam itself?



    Terminologically no, but in terms of praxis yes, definitely.

    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 07, 2014, 03:13 PM
    If so can you be an apostate from a strand but not from Islam per say?



    Well, I think I'm getting at a slightly different point here. I'm saying that the idea of apostasy itself is a problematic notion, not that it doesn't happen. Of course, speaking from a dialectical methodology it doesn't, but this is a very specialised way of viewing the world.

    Quote from: Lilyesque on October 07, 2014, 03:13 PM
    Would you also agree that though ex-Muslim might not be terminologically correct, it is a good label to apply to people who have left strains of Islam? This is in order to provide the best care to these people due to similarities in the oppression they have from their communities?



    In that sense unequivocally yes. I think, however, the identity of ex-muslim, as adopted by the subject is an inherently damaging adaptation considering that islam is a non-concept. It further leads to disciplining of bio-power in the existing societal matrix.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #115 - October 07, 2014, 03:43 PM
    What, gives 'Islam' more power than it deserves??
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #116 - October 07, 2014, 03:44 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 07, 2014, 03:37 PM
    This stock response was available for either of us to use at this point. But I'd feel kinda cheap using it.


    Such arrogance...
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #117 - October 07, 2014, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: schizo on October 07, 2014, 03:44 PM
    Such arrogance...

    Said the guy with so much intellectual pride that it's almost impossible to converse with you without taking a dislike to you.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #118 - October 07, 2014, 03:49 PM
    group hug guys  far away hug

    group hug praxis  far away hug
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #119 - October 07, 2014, 03:50 PM
    Calm down guys!

    Schizo, you need to talk in plainer English, and both of you are strongly opinionated.

    You kinda agree with each other and the small differences trip you off.
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