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Theme Changer

 Topic: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...

 (Read 33874 times)
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  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #30 - October 04, 2014, 06:46 PM

    Jup. Aslan means "Lion" in both Farsi and Turkish. "Asli" is the female version. Many people of Kurdish origin carry this name ("Asli" for the female variant) showing the Persian influence.

    EDIT: Ok it seems like I am wrong on the female name "Asli". It allegedly means "first one, original, ace, primordial, genuine, original, origin, origination, extraction, foundation, gist, groundwork, provenance, root stock, fountain head, essence" according to WikiPedia.

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  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #31 - October 04, 2014, 08:11 PM

    TheRationalizer is great.Also Klingschor.


    Are either if those guys ex-muslims? I dont think they are....

    I actually think HappyMurtad would be the best guy for this. He knows a hell of a lot. He would be a great spokesperson if he is up for it. The CEMNA should prop him up as a spokesperson.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #32 - October 04, 2014, 08:35 PM

    Yes Reza Aslan. I guess Cato is referring to this tube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw


    I think this is a good response from Sam.


    http://youtu.be/uNf0DHjx1kU

    The more you try and obtain nirvana, the further you are from it.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #33 - October 04, 2014, 08:56 PM

    Good find, thanks.

    Stumbled upon this interesting critic of Reza Aslan by Pakistani Ali Abbas Taj from the progressive blog "Let us build Pakistan":

    Reza Aslan: An Apologist for Salafi-Deobandi Pan Islamism
    Quote
    posted by Taj | October 3, 2014

    There are a number of problems with Reza Aslan’s narrative that are fairly common and need a fitting rebuttal.  His narrative is a typical case of false binaries, sweeping generalizations, deliberate omissions and glaring inaccuracies – trends that are fairly common amongst those who act as apologists for extremism.

    In responding to Bill Maher, Reza Aslan misrepresents religious extremism as a country base issue.  He criticizes Saudi Arabia and Iran but in a staggering display of obfuscation presents Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia as model muslim majority nations! Instead of seriously considering the development and growth of Pan Islamic retrogressive movements such as Wahabism/Salafism in the Middle East and its ideological cousin, Deobandism in South Asia, Azlan misrepresents religious extremism as a national and or cultural issue.

    This problem is reflected in his writings as well.  In a detailed interview with Dissent Magazine, it is perturbing to see Reza Aslan’s flippant attitude towards these pan Islamic movements.

    He seems to be admiring Syed Quttab , Hassan al- Bana , Sheikh Jamaluddin Afghani and refers to them  as pioneers of  Reformation in Islam. He tries to demonstrate that these Salafist and Deobandi ideologues were somehow developing an anti-colonial identity  that was different from the western concept of religion which takes religion as the personal matter of a person.   As per Reza, these Wahhabi intellectuals were those who shook the palace of the old Muslim clergy and their authority on religious and other matters.

    But actually Syed Quttab , Hassan al-Bana , Syed Rashid Raza , Syed Modawdi and others actually revived the extreme ideas of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab Najadi and offered old wine with a new label.  The consequences of their so called Reformation is the rising tide of barbarism and brutality in the name of Islam by organizations ranging from Boko Haram, Al Qaeda/FSA/Al Nusra, ISIS to the Taliban.

    Even Ayatullah Khomeini was influenced by the writings of Syed Qutb when he provided his version of the Velayat-e-Faqih.  Not all Shias agree with this version of theocracy and a vast number of them prefer the traditional Quietest version espoused by Ayatullah Sistani. Just as all Sunnis do not advocate for the totalitarian Caliphate espoused by the Salafist-Deobandis – all of whom base their extremist movements on the writings of Abdul Wahab, Afghani, Qutb, al-Banna and Mawdodi as well as the medieval polemicist Ibne Taymiyyah.

    Reza’s blinkered notion of “Cosmic War ” to describe the terrorism of Al Qaeda and other so called Jihadists actually ignores the fact that the process of Wahabisation is itself a Cosmic War and this is not only against the West but its primary targets are Sufi Sunnis, Shias , Christians, Jews , Ahmadis, Zorastrians and other those sects which do not agree with Wahabism and Deobandism and come forward to resist against its forced proliferation.

    Reza Aslan is a prominent part of the  Islamophobia industry which is populated by well dressed apologists engaging in shallow rhetoric.  Those who are not familiar with the complexities and nuances within diverse muslim communities and the significant presence of extremism fueled in large part by the Saudi funding for Wahabism and Deobandism are likely to fall for the well presented apologist arguments of Reza. They are likely to fall for the notion that any criticism of muslim extremists or criticism of prevailing extremist trends is akin to discriminatory behavior.

    Islam is a religion, not a material entity.  Yes, there is discrimination and ill treatment of muslims in the West but those like Reza Aslan and other Saudi funded organizations like CAIR, ISNA present a distorted picture of the sporadic instances of discrimination.  In order to understand where  Reza Aslan is coming from, one simply needs to study the Mehdi Hasan types of England.  Aslan is simply  a more sophisticated version of England’s Mehdi Hasan.

    Islam is not monolithic.  Extremist trends that are prevailing amongst muslims need to be called out without the fear of being tagged as an Islamophobe.  As demonstrated earlier, it is apologists like Reza Aslan who sugarcoat and grossly misrepresent the very basis of extremism.

    While Reza limits his criticism to Iran and Saudi Arabia and creates a false binary between them, he is silent on the Saudi influence and funding of mosques all over the world – especially Europe and North America.  The fact that Saudi prince Bander’s declaration to commit Shia genocide is not even being discussed just shows how problematic Reza Aslan’s discourse is.  Conveniently missing is the fact that thousands of homegrown Jihadis have joined ISIS from  North America and Europe and have been facilitated by Reza Aslan’s favourite example of an ideal muslim majority country, i.e. Turkey.

    Quote
    “Some time before 9/11, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, once the powerful Saudi ambassador in Washington and head of Saudi intelligence until a few months ago, had a revealing and ominous conversation with the head of the British Secret Intelligence Service, MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove. Prince Bandar told him: “The time is not far off in the Middle East, Richard, when it will be literally ‘God help the Shia’. More than a billion Sunnis have simply had enough of them.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html


    In the same manner, Aslan glosses over the issues in Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia. There is systematic persecution of Shias, Christains and Ahmadis in these countries has reached frightening levels. When Malaysia and Indonesia host anti-Shia conferences that incite violence and promote genocide against 200 million +, one cannot just ignore this.

    Is Reza Aslan’s deliberate obfuscation of presenting the virulently anti-Christian, anti-Shia, anti-Sufi and Anti-Ahmadi nations of Malaysia and Indonesia as “ideals” rooted in his own sectarian biases?

    In this apologist interview, Reza Aslan dismisses the horrible widespread practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) as an “African issue”  – a racist and misogynist generalization that is also blatantly false.  Unfortunately, FGM has the support of secondary hadith literature (Ibne Dawud) and is widely advocated in Indonesia and Malaysia – two countries being promoted by Reza Aslan as “moderate” and respectful of women’s rights!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pjxPR36qFU

    Reza Aslan is like many other apologists who never get into specifics about the common Salafist-Deobandi creed of the Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram and Al Qaeda. Understanding the different ideologies in Islam is very important to addressing issues of extremism within Muslims. Shallow and selective apologist rhetoric from people like Reza Aslan where they lump the victims and perpetrators in one category is as problematic, if not more so, than the sweeping criticisms of talk show pundits like Bill Maher. While some of Maher’s criticism is simplistic and rooted in his own biases, not all of his criticism can be dismissed outright. Critics like Bill Maher need to be engaged with not dismissed in the ostrich manner of Aslan’s selective rhetoric.

    There is a problem in the muslim world and acknowledging this is not “racist” – a term used by Ben Affleck to dismiss Bill Maher. Muslims are defined by faith, not race!

    The Pan Islamic movements of the last two centuries have directly given birth to Salafist-Deobandi movements like Boko Haram, ISIS, Taliban, ASWJ-LeJ.  These Pan Islamic trends have also influenced the harsh and oppressive anti-women laws in countries like Iran and Pakistan.  It is these Pan Islamic movements that are leading to the destruction of Sunni, Shia and Sufi shrines.  It is these movements that have lead to Shia Genocide and persecution in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia and Bahrain. It is these Salafist-Deobandi dominated movements that lead to increasing attacks on traditional, Sufi-leaning Sunnis as well as Christians and Hindus.  The Yezidis, an ancient Zorastrian subsect was facing a virtual genocide at the hands of the transnational Salafi-Deobandi terrorists of ISIS.

    Burying our heads in the sand and pretending that these are local Saudi issues – as Aslan seems to be doing with his flippant and dismissive attitude towards extremism – is a recipe for even worse disasters.  Muslims need to confront and oppose the extremism within or else face up to the sweeping generalizations of liberal critics like Bill Maher.


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  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #34 - October 04, 2014, 09:13 PM

    I think this is a good response from Sam.


    http://youtu.be/uNf0DHjx1kU

     Hmm..    let me redo that lwr    tube link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNf0DHjx1kU

    and add another link on top of it...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JJf2qC6TTg

    And I think you guys are wrong w.r.t Cato., I Think Reza in Cato post is not  Reza Aslan but some other Reza .. There are plenty of Rezas in AMRIKA..   The Reza is like "Muhammad"  An adjective


    Quote
    Jonathan Kirsch  earned a B.A. degree in Russian and Jewish history from the University of California, Santa Cruz and a J.D. degree from Loyola University School of Law. He serves as adjunct Professor on the Faculty of New York University’s Professional Publishing Institute and has contributed to Newsweek, The New Republic, Los Angeles magazine, and Publishers Weekly among other publications. He is also the author of ten novels, and a critic.[1]

    His son, Adam Kirsch, is an American poet and literary critic.

    Books by Jonathan Kirsch


        Bad Moon Rising (1977)
        Lovers in a Winter Circle (1978)
        Harlot by the Side of the Road: Forbidden Tales of the Bible. Ballantine Books (1998)
        Moses: A Life. Ballantine Books; New Ed edition (1999)
        King David: The Real Life of the Man who Ruled Israel. Ballantine Books (2001)
        The Woman who Laughed at God: The Untold History of the Jewish People. Penguin Reprint edition (2002)
        God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism. Viking Adult (2004) ISBN 0-670-03286-7
        A History of the End of the World: How the Most Controversial Book in the Bible Changed the Course of Western Civilization. HarperOne (2006).
        The Grand Inquisitor's Manual: A History of Terror in the Name of God HarperOne (2008).
        The Short, Strange Life of Herschel Grynszpan: A Boy Avenger, a Nazi Diplomat, and a Murder in Paris Liveright (2013).

     Hmm.. Yap..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #35 - October 04, 2014, 09:17 PM

    Great, we have a moron playing Batman. Why do some of these liberals always tend to forget about us ex-Muslims? They forget about our persecution which is sanctioned by Islam.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #36 - October 04, 2014, 09:24 PM

    Great, we have a moron playing Batman.  .....................

    shut up decent ., Cato is not a Batman and neither me...  finmad

    Cato is a Spider man and I am a Super Man  and Jedi is a J-Man...   didn't you read Zeeman Effect in Physics?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #37 - October 04, 2014, 09:26 PM

    Good find, thanks.

    Stumbled upon this interesting critic of Reza Aslan by Pakistani Ali Abbas Taj from the progressive blog "Let us build Pakistan":

    ......



    holy shit how is this guy able to sleep at night writing stuff like this in Pakistan!

    very well put by him, and I will share with others but....golly does this take guts to write something like this in a place where they can kid nap you over night and you cant do anything about it.

    The more you try and obtain nirvana, the further you are from it.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #38 - October 04, 2014, 09:30 PM

    Aslan seems like Mehdi Hasan, very shifty about things

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #39 - October 04, 2014, 09:33 PM

     
    holy shit how is this guy able to sleep at night writing stuff like this in Pakistan!


    "writing stuff like this living in  Pakistan!" ., that is funny...   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

     how about if I call you as LWR??   Hello LWR
     
    Ali Abbas Taj  writes from US of A.   where from Reza Aslan writes or Samm Harris writes Or Cato Writes..  Cheesy

    But there is way to do that., I mean write like that From Pakistan.,   and that is Hassan Nisar way..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #40 - October 04, 2014, 09:34 PM

    Are either if those guys ex-muslims? I dont think they are....

    I actually think HappyMurtad would be the best guy for this. He knows a hell of a lot. He would be a great spokesperson if he is up for it. The CEMNA should prop him up as a spokesperson.

    No, they're not exmuslim.I meant that TheRationaliser and Klingschor would be good as critics of Islam.
    I agree that HappyMurtad would be very much suitable for this.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #41 - October 04, 2014, 09:36 PM

    Reza Aslan doesn't believe in virgin birth of Jesus,as I remember and thats very unusual
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #42 - October 04, 2014, 09:44 PM

    Reza Aslan doesn't believe in virgin birth of Jesus,as I remember and thats very unusual

    forget about what that fellow believes and what he doesn't believe

    Quote
    His books include Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, Random House [1], 2013..


    but when he writes a book    Zealot: The Life and Times of Muhammad  of Madina  Then I will talk..  I have seen plenty of Willy Lame Crane  type of Muslims..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #43 - October 04, 2014, 09:53 PM

    "writing stuff like this living in  Pakistan!" ., that is funny...   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

     how about if I call you as LWR??   Hello LWR
     
    Ali Abbas Taj  writes from US of A.   where from Reza Aslan writes or Samm Harris writes Or Cato Writes..  Cheesy

    But there is way to do that., I mean write like that From Pakistan.,   and that is Hassan Nisar way..


    oh that makes sense his English is very good.

    I still stick by my point however. It would be very unwise to say things like this while physically being in Pakistan.

    The more you try and obtain nirvana, the further you are from it.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #44 - October 04, 2014, 11:42 PM

    .............. It would be very unwise to say things like this while physically being in Pakistan.

    ...yes it is.. in fact it is a death wish..

    Ali Abbas Taj  takes on these baboons of Islam quite often and that is unwise to live and write openly from Pakistan . Off course you can write through internet walls



    because each one of them has at least 5 mosques and some 50000 hard core followers

    let me add links of some of his articles here

    Who are Takfiri Deobandis?

    Deobandi terrorists of ASWJ-LeJ and Taliban slaughtering Shia Muslims to commemorate their Eid

    This is Not Palestine, This is Pakistan!/318224#sthash.cc5Kgmm6.dpuf

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #45 - October 05, 2014, 12:53 AM

    No, they're not exmuslim.I meant that TheRationaliser and Klingschor would be good as critics of Islam.
    I agree that HappyMurtad would be very much suitable for this.


    We are all suitable for this role. But, dare I say, WE need FEMALE Ex-Muslims to speak out. Men do far too much talking and are far too active.

    We need ex-hijabis, ex-niqabis and ex-otherbis. Lots exes to shove in the faces of all these DAWAHGANDISTS!

    Women! Whya re you so silent!? Rise up! Speak up!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #46 - October 05, 2014, 12:57 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-t74QUjM6E

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #47 - October 05, 2014, 01:00 AM

    Yep Quod. THat should be our sisters theme song. And this one too...

    FUCK YOU I WONT DO WHAT YOU TELL ME!!!


    FUCK YOU I WONT DO WHAT YOU TELL ME!!!


    FUCK YOU I WONT DO WHAT YOU TELL ME!!!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #48 - October 05, 2014, 01:13 AM

    The people who did the lyrics in the vid I posted don't seem to like apostrophes. Still, fitting song, with lyrics included (although lacking the appropriate apostrophes. As a teacher Jedi is no doubt filled with rage and will be commenting accordingly).

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #49 - October 05, 2014, 01:21 AM

    Aaaah - good times Jedi!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlAD1vwHMR8

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  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #50 - October 05, 2014, 10:17 AM

    Men, fuck em. It would be a breath of fresh air if ex-muslims with a muslim background or an ex-convert that is well knowledgeable of Islam to be involved rather than those two white liberal douchebags. I'm sick of hearing them making generalizations that is easy for not only "relativist lefties" but for well learned MUSLIMS as well to debunk them like Reza did. If I was a muslim myself I could have debunk most of the crap they are talking so fuck em, I wish people can stop taking them as some sort of spokesperson for the atheists worldwide. They are not helping our cause at all but make us look stupid and naïve which can also lead to reinforcement of muslim's beliefs.


    Well said! Fuck Sam Harris

    This douche is the biggest hater of Muslims stemmed from over the top generalization of Muslims based on his limited understanding of Islam and the culture it stems from.

    I seemed to notice most Ex Muslim Atheists disagree with his stances but most Ex Christian Atheists are all for him.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #51 - October 05, 2014, 01:05 PM

    Maajid Nawaz chirps in on the debate:


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  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #52 - October 05, 2014, 01:08 PM

    Maajid Nawaz is right

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #53 - October 05, 2014, 03:43 PM

    Sam Harris' opinions need time to unpack and build. As shortened and hurried soundbytes, they sometimes sound worse than they actually are.

    Bill Maher is a comedian and shock jock. His mischief hits the mark sometimes. Other times, it's just lowest common denominator nonsense.

    Ben Affleck is a good writer and director. But he has nothing of substance to say on this subject and seems content to make easy, lazy, safe, crowd-pleasing platitudes.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #54 - October 05, 2014, 05:14 PM

    They are all absolutely useless, lacking a firm grounding in political economy, combined and uneven development, anthropology/history from below, and linguistics.
  • Re: Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #55 - October 05, 2014, 05:19 PM

    Sam Harris' opinions need time to unpack and build. As shortened and hurried soundbytes, they sometimes sound worse than they actually are.



    Examples?
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #56 - October 05, 2014, 05:35 PM

    Mohammad Syed and Sarah Haider from ExNMA criticises Reza Aslan:

    Reza Aslan is Wrong About Islam and This is Why

    Loads of links in the original and also already a lot of comments there.

    Quote
    This is a guest post written by Muhammad Syed and Sarah Haider (below). They are co-founders of Ex-Muslims of North America, a community-building organization for ex-Muslims across the non-theist spectrum, and can be reached at @MoTheAtheist and @SarahTheHaider.

    This past week, a clip of Reza Aslan responding to comedian Bill Maher’s comments about Islamic violence and misogyny went viral.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

    Maher stated (among other things) that “if vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe, and they do, that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea or drawing a cartoon or writing a book or eloping with the wrong person, not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS, it has too much in common with ISIS.” Maher implied a connection between FGM and violence against women with the Islamic faith, to which the charming Aslan seems to be providing a nuanced counterbalance, calling Maher “unsophisticated” and his arguments “facile.” His comments were lauded by many media outlets, including Salon and the Huffington Post.

    Although we have become accustomed to the agenda-driven narrative from Aslan, we were blown away by how his undeniably appealing but patently misleading arguments were cheered on by many, with the Washington Post’s Erik Wemple going so far as to advise show producers not to put a show-host against Aslan “unless your people are schooled in religion, politics and geopolitics of the Muslim world.”

    Only those who themselves aren’t very “schooled” in Islam and Muslim affairs would imply that Aslan does anything but misinform by cherry-picking and distorting facts.

    Nearly everything Aslan stated during his segment was either wrong, or technically-correct-but-actually-wrong. We will explain by going through each of his statements in the hopes that Aslan was just misinformed (although it’s hard for us to imagine that a “scholar” such as Aslan wouldn’t be aware of all this).

    Aslan contends that while some Muslim countries have problems with violence and women’s rights, in others like “Indonesia, women are absolutely 100 percent equal to men” and it is therefore incorrect to imply that such issues are a problem with Islam and “facile” to imply that women are “somehow mistreated in the Muslim world.”

    Let us be clear here: No one in their right mind would claim that Indonesia, Malaysia, and Bangladesh are a “free and open society for women.” Happily, a few of them have enshrined laws that have done much to bring about some progress in equality between the sexes. But this progress is hindered or even eroded by the creeping strength of the notoriously anti-woman Sharia courts.

    For example:

    Indonesia has increasingly become more conservative. (Notoriously anti-women) Sharia courts that were “optional” have risen to equal status with regular courts in family matters. The conservative Aceh province even legislates criminal matters via Sharia courts, which has been said to violate fundamental human rights.

    Malaysia has a dual-system of law which mandates sharia law for Muslims. These allow men to have multiple wives (polygyny) and discriminate against women in inheritance (as mandated by Islamic scripture). It also prohibits wives from disobeying the “lawful orders” of their husbands.

    Bangladesh, which according to feminist Tahmima Anam made real advancements towards equality in its inception, also “created a barrier to women’s advancement.” This barrier? An article in the otherwise progressive constitution which states that “women shall have equal rights with men in all spheres of the state and of the public life” but in the realm of private affairs (marriage, divorce, inheritance, and child custody), “it acknowledges Islam as the state religion and effectively enshrines the application of Islamic law in family affairs. The Constitution thus does nothing to enforce equality in private life.”

    And finally we come to Turkey, a country oft-cited by apologists due to its relative stability, liberalism, and gender equality. What they consistently choose to ignore is that historically, Turkey was militantly secular. We mean this literally: The country’s founder, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, created a secular state and pushed Islam out of the public sphere (outlawing polygamy, child marriages, and giving divorce rights to women) through (at times, military) force. He even banned the headscarf in various public sectors and is believed by some to have been an atheist.

    Only apologists would ignore the circumstances that led to Turkey’s incredible progress and success relative to the Muslim world, and hold it up as an example of “Islamic” advancement of women’s rights. In fact, child marriages (which continue to be widespread in rural Turkey), are often hidden due to the practice of “religious” marriages (Nikah) being performed without informing secular authorities. Turkey was recently forced to pass a law banning religious marriages with penalties imposed on imams for violations.

    Aslan’s claim that Muslim countries “have elected seven women as their heads of state” is an example of “technically true, actually false” — a tactic we have often noted among religious apologists.

    It is true that there have been seven female heads of state in Muslim-majority countries, but a closer inspection would reveal this has little to do with female empowerment and often has much more to do with the political power of certain families in under-developed parts of the world.

    It is well-known that Benazir Bhutto, a woman, was democratically elected in Pakistan. What is not as well-known is that her advancement had much to do with her family’s power in her party (Pakistan People’s Party) and little to do with female empowerment. Her father was once Prime Minister of Pakistan, and she was elected to the position fresh from her exile in the West with little political experience of her own. After her assassination, her nineteen year old son assumed leadership of her political party — as was expected by many familiar with the power their family continued to hold.

    Similarly, Sheikh Hasina (the current Prime Minister of Bangladesh) is the daughter of the founding father of the country, Sheikh Mujibur-Rehman. Khaleda Zia, the predecessor of Sheikh Hasina, assumed power over her party after the assassination of her husband — the second Prime Minister of Bangladesh.

    In addition, Megawati Sukarnopotri, former President of Indonesia, was the daughter of Sukarno, the founding father of Indonesia.

    To anyone familiar with women’s rights around the world, neither Pakistan, Bangladesh, nor Indonesia can be considered states with a stellar track record. It is likely that in these cases, the power of political dynasties was the key factor in their success.

    Furthermore, female heads of state were elected democratically in Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, and Kosovo. But, as before, a closer inspection reveals a complicated reality. All three states are secular, where religion was forcibly uprooted from the government — due to Atatürk (in the case of Turkey) or Communism (in the cases of Kyrgyzstan and Kosovo).

    Predictably, Aslan fails to mention any of this.

    Finally, we get to Aslan’s claim that it is “actually, empirically, factually incorrect” that female genital mutilation (FGM) is a “Muslim-country problem.” Rather, he believes it is a “central African problem.” He continues to state that “nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.”

    This is an absolutely ridiculous claim.

    The idea that FGM is concentrated solely in Africa is a huge misconception and bandied about by apologists with citations of an Africa-focused UNICEF report which showed high rates of FGM in African countries. Apologists have taken that to mean that it is *only* Africa that has an FGM problem — even though FGM rates have not been studied in most of the Middle East or South and East Asia. Is it an academically sound practice to take a lack of study as proof of the non-existence of the practice? Especially when there is record of FGM common in Asian countries like Indonesia and Malaysia? It is also present in the Bohra Muslim community in India and Pakistan, as well as in the Kurdish community in Iraq — Are they to be discounted as “African problems” as well?

    We do not yet have the large scale data to confirm the rates of FGM around the world, but we can safely assume that it is quite a bit more than just an “African problem.” It is very likely that FGM *did* originate in the Middle East or North Africa, but its extensive prevalence in Muslim-majority countries should give us pause. We are not attempting to paint FGM as only an Islamic problem but rather that Islam does bear some responsibility for its spread beyond the Middle East-North Africa region and for its modern prevalence.

    So is there any credence to the claim that Islam supports FGM? In fact, there is. To name two, the major collections of the Hadith Sahih Muslim 3:684 and Abu Dawud 41:5251 support the practice. Of the four major schools of thought in Sunni Islam, two mandate FGM while two merely recommend it. Unsurprisingly, in the Muslim-majority countries dominated by the schools which mandate the practice, there is evidence of widespread female circumcision. Of particular note: None of the major schools condemn the practice.

    This isn’t the first time Reza has stated half-truths in defense of his agenda. In his book No God But God, he misleads readers about many issues including the age of Muhammad’s child-bride Aisha. Scripture unanimously cites Aisha’s betrothal at age 6 or 7 and consummation at 9. Similarly, he quotes Mariya the Copt as being a wife of the prophet when overwhelming evidence points to her being Muhammad’s concubine.

    We believe that Islam badly needs to be reformed, and it is only Muslims who can truly make it into a modern religion. But it is the likes of Reza Aslan who act as a deterrent to change by refusing to acknowledge real complications within the scripture and by actively promoting half-truths. Bigotry against Muslims is a real and pressing problem, but one can criticize the Islamic ideology without treating Muslims as themselves problematic or incapable of reform.

    There are true Muslim reformists who are willing to call a spade a spade while working for the true betterment of their peoples — but their voices are drowned out by the noise of apologists who are all-too-often aided by the Western left. Those who accept distortions in order to hold on to a comforting dream-world where Islamic fundamentalism is merely an aberration are harming reform by encouraging apologists.


    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #57 - October 05, 2014, 05:58 PM

    We are all suitable for this role. But, dare I say, WE need FEMALE Ex-Muslims to speak out. Men do far too much talking and are far too active.

    We need ex-hijabis, ex-niqabis and ex-otherbis. Lots exes to shove in the faces of all these DAWAHGANDISTS!

    Women! Whya re you so silent!? Rise up! Speak up!


    There are more and more Exmuslim women (and men) out there getting heard, on social media and even in traditional media. Problem is that we often still get looked over. Others claim to just speak for us more often than not. There's no reason this panel should have existed as merely an abstract discourse between a bunch of white never-moose men, with not a single exmuslim (or even a truly secular/progressive muslim) perspective in the mix.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #58 - October 05, 2014, 06:05 PM

    Nikolaj
    Two points that should be added.
    1. Ataturk didnt ban the headscarf, it was banned in the 80s. His wife had a headscarf btw,even though I think they divorced.
    2. Depending on how you classify FGM, thats true.The one associated with Islam,though, can be classified as type 0 or type 1. The types that exist and that are mostly performed in Somalia and other countries in Africa, are the most severe, type 3-4.Essentially the Islamic sanctioned fgm could either require a nick or cutting of part of the skin on the female genitals, while type 3-4 would fully cutting of the genitals.
  • Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ben Affleck...
     Reply #59 - October 05, 2014, 06:14 PM

    Thanks for the addition Skywalker

    Regaring the ban on headscarfs in Turkey it was banned for women in public sector jobs *BEFORE* the ban for students in 1984 is my impression. If it was from 1924 I don't know.

    EDIT: Found this: A history of the headscarf ban in Turkey

    Regarding FGM I know of the "lighter" FGM in Indonesia and Malaysia but in Kurdistan the clitoris itself is usually removed and often more than that. Iraqi Kurdistian is deliberately putting imams on TV to tell people that FGM is not in the Quran and thus not part of Islam which among other measures have helped.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
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