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Theme Changer

 Topic: Noah's Age in the Bible?

 (Read 5598 times)
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  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #30 - October 09, 2014, 03:04 AM

    Religion is a convenient fiction.

    Anyway, asking a practicing Muslim to look at the Qu'ran critically as just another literary text is just as good as promoting apostasy. Believers think the Qu'ran is a living document, an inerrant word of God, a holy relic that men make oaths on and menstruating women can't touch. It's far beyond a book to them yet ironically, they can recite the verses but not understand any of it. The magical link with God through reciting the Qu'ran is what matters... Leave messy exegesis and fatwas to the ulamas.

    Islam's ridiculousness boils down to the fact that few believers understand Arabic, let alone the classical hodgepodge in the Qu'ran. Maybe scholars should make a Qu'ran wiki showing the original Arabic script, rasm if you want, an English translation, a traditional interpretation, critical interpretation and secular historical context. That'll be a great way of getting fence sitting Muslims to learn more about their faith and hopefully embrace reason instead.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #31 - October 09, 2014, 03:24 AM

    You can find that quite readily online. Have you never come across www.quran.com or www.quranx.com ? Quranx is quite the accomplishment I have to say.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #32 - October 09, 2014, 06:21 AM

    I think the traditional view is not so different from the revisionist views if you think about it.  Both the traditional and modern views see the Qur'an as a composite slowly produced over a LOOOOONG period of time (decades for both views) in radically different social circumstances that resulted in radically different directives stated in the text (traditionally, pagan Mecca v. Judao-Mohammedan Medina).  Both the traditional and modern views see the Surahs as including later interpolations (for example, Surah 74:31, even Muslim tradition recognizes the blatant interpolation, or the end of Surat an Nisan, 4:176 ... nobody could think this was an original text ... so to explain, that, Muslims just argued these individual ayas were received later as separate revelations to Mohammed).   Both the traditional and modern views see the "Mushaf" as a sort of composite formed by committee out of disparate materials after Mohammed's death.

    Likewise, the many straightforward contradictions in the Qur'an (one moment wine is great, the next it's a sin) had to be explained away by a concept of successive revelations in which the older conflicting texts were later replaced by new revelations.  One part of the Qur'an preaches peace and love towards the Jews, other parts are bitterly anti-Semitic; why, well Muslim tradition came up with the explanation that Mohammed was betrayed by the Jews at one point during his revelations, specifically at Medina.  I think traditional Muslims may not recognize how artificial this device is, how it's a way of attempting to integrate the many strange disjunctions in the surahs and try to account for them as if they were produced by a single individual.

    There are even hadith recording how scribes added text to improve the rhyme, and how Mohammed heard their version recited back to him, and 'adopted' it as the Qur'an.

    Where they differ is that the traditional view argues that the work is unified in the life of a single Arabian prophet, and that it was flawlessly orally transmitted (sort of) apart from its textual form.  The modern view would argue that is a tendentious later argument imposed on the text, and if you look at the text, it is radically heterogeneous (compare it with any other work of Near Eastern religious literature that is traditionally assigned to a single author, for example, and with the exception perhaps of the Gathas there is none so heterogeneous).

    So this is the strongest evidence that it's a composite text -- it's essentially undisputed that it HAS to be a composite text assembled by multiple hands over a long period of years, the question is just what that process of composite assembly most likely consisted of, and whether the text as we know it all fits comfortably within the traditional account of the life of an Arabian prophet, reflecting just his words as reliably recalled by his associates before being written down, with no other material.  For many reasons, I think that account --- I describe it as an unlikely hypothesis about the textual origin --- has been shown thoroughly defective and unreliable.  Thus the burden of proof falls on the other foot ... we should no more take a believer's account of the Qur'an's origins written 200 years later as reliable than we should do the same for an account of a NT Gospel's origins written 200 years later.

    I think it is very beneficial to sit down with a modern translation of the Qur'an and really think through what it is actually saying, while 'bracketing' the traditional explanations.  Treat it as you would *any other religious text* that is the object of study.  I think this is probably difficult for both believing Muslims and traditional scholars, to set aside the traditional interpretive apparatus and look at the text fresh and critically.  One of the first results of this process will be that the text is consistently baffling or unclear, but this is just a reality that must be dealt with.


    +0.03 (It'd be a plus one, but I feel my opinion is worth only a small fraction compared to others who have contributed on this thread).

    I am completely sold. Your research, judgement, commitment and open-mindedness on this is second-to-none. What you say makes perfect sense, and builds on what little I have read to date on this, starting with Holland. You make wonderful recommendations throughout your posts for further reading, and I feel that this further reading would help us all to break the shackles of what we have had spoon-fed to us by traditionalists regarding the background to the Quran.

    I'm so glad you decided to contribute on here. You've firmly pointed me in the right direction, done much of the hard work for me, and I will cement this going forwards by reading up on this fascinating subject that has indirectly defined large parts of life, and is annoyingly continuing to do so.


    Hi
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #33 - October 09, 2014, 06:23 AM

    Next up: when Zaotar met Klingshor. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #34 - October 09, 2014, 06:36 AM

    No contest. One is an expert on content, the other on content plus composition.

    Hi
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #35 - October 09, 2014, 06:37 AM

    I didn't say it was a contest. Personally I'd just want to be there with popcorn.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #36 - October 09, 2014, 06:38 AM

    Oh ok, yeah

    Hi
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #37 - October 09, 2014, 06:40 AM

    The various Qur'an sites offer multiple translations but no historical or secular commentary. I need commentary! Smiley

    It would be nice to read about when a sura was supposedly laid down, a historical analysis of it, its meaning according to Islamic scholarship, its actual meaning taking into account non-Arabic words and non-Islamic concepts, etc. A skeptic's critical view of the Qur'an, if you will.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #38 - October 09, 2014, 06:46 AM

    what im wondering is, is men/women with age more than 120 is possible at that time?
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #39 - October 09, 2014, 06:54 AM

    All things are possible with allah.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #40 - October 09, 2014, 10:30 AM


    I think this is particularly true of the story of Joseph. So many of the things in there are just about right, but still kind of wrong when compared to the biblical narrative.


    Well, the Quranic account of Joseph comes from a much later tradition than the Genesis narrative - Sura Yusuf is a variant of the Joseph as the man of virtue narrative that begins to develop in Jubilees, is fully articulated in The Testament of Joseph (one of a series of texts attributed to one of each of Jacob's sons and appears to have been extremely popular in the late Commonwealth/early Christian era ), Philo's treatise "On Joseph", and in late texts such "Joseph and Asenath" and the early rabbinical midrashic traditions, where all the narrative elements in the Quranic version are already found. There's an excellent analysis of this by James Kugel in a book called In Potiphar's House.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #41 - October 09, 2014, 01:26 PM

    I think the traditional view is not so different from the revisionist views if you think about it...


    You make an excellent case, Zaotar  Afro
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #42 - October 09, 2014, 07:14 PM

    Thanks!

    One thing I would say about my view -- people want answers about the Qur'an, but the reality is that we will almost certainly never be able to decisively answer many basic questions about it, any more than we can decisively explain many aspects of the NT texts .... debates still rage amongst scholars about those.  And worse, at least with the NT texts we have an excellent independent understanding of the language/script (Greek) and what it means.  The Arabic language (pre-Islamic, Qur'anic, dialect, classical) and early Arabic orthography is disastrously uncertain, by comparison.  If you look at modern academic literature on the Arabic language and its origins, for example, there are such startling and profound disagreements between various academics regarding the nature and origin of Qur'anic Arabic that it's really not possible to pretend anybody has certain answers at this point. 

    So to Shaytanshoe's point about a surah-by-surah critical analysis, I don't think anything of the sort is possible at this point because there is still too much uncertainty that any responsible scholar must acknowledge regarding the Qur'an's composition and language.  The most you can do is point to particular insights, and argue probabilities.  This actually makes it a lot more interesting, I think, then pretending that it is a straightforward text that can easily be explained.
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