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Theme Changer

 Topic: Is Islamic State Islamic?

 (Read 15652 times)
  • 12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     OP - October 13, 2014, 12:12 PM

    Hello people.  I am a never-was muslim, a nominal Anglican, but in fact a lifetime atheist.  Indeed a passionate atheist.  I really don't like any religions, but I do feel that Islam at the moment presents a particularly worrying problem.  I accept there is little if anything in the Quran or hadiths in the way of rape, slavery and murder that isn't also in the Old Testament.  I also accept that Christians have done lots of bad things over the centuries.  Heck, Christians, Jews, Hindhus and Buddhists continue to commit atrocities as I type.  But I think Islam presents a particular threat to civilisation due to its unique combination of numbers of adherents, the unreformed nature of their belief, the prevalence of belief in violence (e.g. capital punishment for homosexuality or drawing cartoons) and the weapons and money controlled by Islamic states.  Each of these factors is shared with other faiths/cults, but no other religion has all of them.  The USA arguably does, but that is a country not a religion, and a somewhat seperate topic.

    However, as my knowledge and experience of Islam is limited to that of an interested outsider, I would really appreciate the views of people that have lived it, and in particular whether it is as scary as I believe it is (while completely accepting that I could be wrong - that's the beauty of rational thought!)

    I have been closely following the debate between those that suggest Islamic State is a natural product of Islamic belief and those who claim that it is an aberation that has little if anything to do with Islam.  The former is typified by Sam Harris, the latter by Karen Armstrong.  The review of Armstrong's latest book (link below) quite neatly sums up the arguments, but my conclusions are slightly different.  It seems to me that Islam is the primary cause of Islamic State.  Without Islam, people would be angry about the state of the Middle East and the West's contributions to its problems, but they wouldn't be gleefully chopping off aid workers' heads.

    For that reason I think it is appropiate and urgent that rationalists hold all religions to account for what they are, without fear of censure.  But Armstrong and Shariatmadari would call me an Islamophobe.  Am I?  Or is Islam (not Muslims note) as dangerous as I think?

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/oct/08/fields-of-blood-religion-history-violence-karen-armstrong-review

    "Professor Richard Dawkins was put there by god to test us.  Like fossils.  And facts."  Stewart Lee
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #1 - October 13, 2014, 12:21 PM

    welcome to the forum.

    check this out, a response to Armstrong's book from an Exmuslim perspective

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2014/09/secularism-and-religious-intolerance---an-ex-muslim-perspective-on-karen-armstrongs-essay


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #2 - October 13, 2014, 01:31 PM

    Armstrong's book is shit but this article succumbs to the disease I diagnosed last week and hence is just as philistine. But whenever I attempt to articulate something heterodox I'm hounded by the sycophantic lapdogs on this forum.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #3 - October 13, 2014, 02:06 PM

    Armstrong's book is shit ............

    Not just that book.. all her books are junk .. let me list them

    Quote
    A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam by Karen Armstrong

     Islam: A Short History by Karen Armstrong

     The Spiral Staircase: My Climb Out of Darkness by Karen Armstrong

     The Case for God by Karen Armstrong

     Buddha by Karen Armstrong

     The Great Transformation: The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions by Karen Armstrong


     The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism by Karen Armstrong

    Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong

    Twelve Steps to a Compassionate Life by Karen Armstrong

     The Bible: A Biography by Karen Armstrong

     Through the Narrow Gate: A Memoir of Spiritual Discovery by Karen Armstrong

     Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time by Karen Armstrong

    Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today's World by Karen Armstrong

     Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths by Karen Armstrong

    In the Beginning: A New Interpretation of Genesis by Karen Armstrong

     The Gospel According to Woman: Christianity's Creation of the Sex War in the West by Karen Armstrong

     The Myths: A Short History of Myth / The Penelopiad / Weight by Karen Armstrong, Margaret Atwood (Goodreads Author), Jeanette Winterson

     Visions of God by Karen Armstrong

     Beginning the World by Karen Armstrong

     Every Eye Beholds You: A World Treasury Of Prayer by Karen Armstrong

    Canongate Myth Series: A Short History of Myth / The Penelopiad / Weight / Dream Angus   by Karen Armstrong, Margaret Atwood (Goodreads Author), Jeanette Winterson, Alexander McCall Smith (Goodreads Author)

    The First Christian: St. Paul's impact on Christianity by Karen Armstrong

     A Letter To Pakistan by Karen Armstrong

     Fields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violence by Karen Armstrong

     Tongues of Fire: An Anthology of Religious and Poetic Experience by Karen Armstrong

     The Future of God: The Reclaiming of Spirituality's Mystical Roots by Karen Armstrong

     The Myths: Volume I - VI by Karen Armstrong, Margaret Atwood (Goodreads Author), Jeanette Winterson, Victor Pelevin

     The Battle for God: Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong

     A Time to Keep Silence by Patrick Leigh Fermor, Karen Armstrong (Introduction)

     A Delusion of Satan: The Full Story of the Salem Witch Trials by Frances Hill, Karen Armstrong (Introduction)

    Nuns and Soldiers  by Iris Murdoch, Karen Armstrong

    What's Right with Islam Is What's Right With America: A New Vision for Muslims and the West by Feisal Abdul Rauf (Goodreads Author), Karen Armstrong

     Francis of Assisi: A Revolutionary Life by Adrian House, Karen Armstrong

     Inside Islam: The Faith, the People and the Conflicts of the World's Fastest Growing Religion by John Miller (Editor), Robert D. Kaplan, William T. Vollmann, Karen Armstrong

     The Changing Face of God by Frederick W Schmidt (Editor), Karen Armstrong (Contributor), Marcus J. Borg (Contributor), James Cone (Contributor)  

        The Tainted Warrior: Is Religion Really Violent? by Karen Armstrong


    and I am missing some more..   Look at that list., it is all over .. But I bet she didn't read Quran and hadith...  One thing we must agree that she is a prolific writer and story teller

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #4 - October 13, 2014, 03:40 PM

    Armstrong's book is shit but this article succumbs to the disease I diagnosed last week and hence is just as philistine. But whenever I attempt to articulate something heterodox I'm hounded by the sycophantic lapdogs on this forum.


    OK, I know what you think about Karen Armstrong's book, though I don't know why.  Since I'm not going to traul through historic posts I have no idea why you conclude "this article" is philistine, or indeed whether "this article" is my original post or the review of Armstrong's book.  I certainly have no idea what you think about my question.

    If nothing else, I'd be interested to know what you think the prevailing orthodoxy here is.  Might save me some awkwardness.

    "Professor Richard Dawkins was put there by god to test us.  Like fossils.  And facts."  Stewart Lee
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #5 - October 13, 2014, 03:40 PM

    EDIT (Sorry, wrong thread)
  • Re: Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #6 - October 13, 2014, 04:26 PM

    OK, I know what you think about Karen Armstrong's book, though I don't know why.  Since I'm not going to traul through historic posts I have no idea why you conclude "this article" is philistine, or indeed whether "this article" is my original post or the review of Armstrong's book.  I certainly have no idea what you think about my question.

    If nothing else, I'd be interested to know what you think the prevailing orthodoxy here is.  Might save me some awkwardness.


    Nah, the article that Billy posted.

    Regarding prevailing orthodoxy: see:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27430

    From page 3 onwards.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #7 - October 13, 2014, 04:28 PM

    sorry i seem to be messing up a lot today. the above post of mine was meant for the IS/ISIL thread - not this one, which i mistook for it.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #8 - October 13, 2014, 04:35 PM

    I would really appreciate the views of people that have lived it...

    those that suggest Islamic State is a natural product of Islamic belief and those who claim that it is an aberation


    I would say the truth lies between the two.

    The Islamic State (ISIL, DAESH or whatever...) is definitely a product of Islamic belief, but is not necessarily the natural or only product of Islam.

    Those who say that IS an aberration and has nothing to with Islam are either ignorant or dishonest (often with themselves as much as with others).

    But those who say IS is the natural and true product of Islam - that it is "True Islam" - are wrong also.

    The fact of the matter is that there are and always have been many different traditions that evolved from Islam. Each one is selective about what they see in Islam.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #9 - October 13, 2014, 04:40 PM

    I hope I redeemed myself by contributing to the thread  grin12
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #10 - October 13, 2014, 06:02 PM

    I hope I redeemed myself by contributing to the thread  grin12

    We find your offering sufficient.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #11 - October 13, 2014, 06:04 PM

    We find your offering sufficient.


    hehe  grin12  far away hug
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #12 - October 13, 2014, 07:00 PM

    I would say the truth lies between the two.

    The Islamic State (ISIL, DAESH or whatever...) is definitely a product of Islamic belief, but is not necessarily the natural or only product of Islam.

    Those who say that IS an aberration and has nothing to with Islam are either ignorant or dishonest (often with themselves as much as with others).

    But those who say IS is the natural and true product of Islam - that it is "True Islam" - are wrong also.

    The fact of the matter is that there are and always have been many different traditions that evolved from Islam. Each one is selective about what they see in Islam.


    you dropped the ball but then you played a blinder AA  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #13 - October 13, 2014, 07:06 PM

    But those who say IS is the natural and true product of Islam - that it is "True Islam" - are wrong also.

    The fact of the matter is that there are and always have been many different traditions that evolved from Islam. Each one is selective about what they see in Islam.


    Can you be more specific Abu. In what way are those that claim IS is not true Islam wrong?

    With regards to the different traditions that evolved out of Islam, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that IS is a reflection of Sufi/Shia/ etc. traditions. They themselves don't claim that. Their claim is that they are bringing back the original Sunni Islam as described in the original Sunni sources. How is that not the case?
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #14 - October 13, 2014, 07:26 PM

    Can you be more specific Abu. In what way are those that claim IS is not true Islam wrong?

    With regards to the different traditions that evolved out of Islam, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that IS is a reflection of Sufi/Shia/ etc. traditions. They themselves don't claim that. Their claim is that they are bringing back the original Sunni Islam as described in the original Sunni sources. How is that not the case?


    It's amazing how all sides of this debate make the mistake of accepting the traditional Islamic narrative. Well tbh I used to as well. But surely we here should know better.

    There is no "true Islam" because Islam was not the carefully planned work of a divine being, but the rather badly planned creation of a human being. What Muhammad said and did over the 40 odd years of his "prophethood" changed & varied at different points of his lifetime and according to the circumstances he faced.

    Islam is not a homogenous entity with a "true version" - in fact the Islam, i.e. the Qur'an, hadith, fiqh etc... are largely a creation of the generations that came after Muhammad.

    I know from my own years of battling with literalists like the Salafis, that they are in fact very selective about the sources they accept and those they reject. The moderates are equally selective. The Sufis also. Speak to non-Salafi and non-Ikhwani Sunni shiekhs, such as our own Abdul Hakim Murad and they can cite libraries of "authentic sources" to show you that in no-way should prisoners be beheaded, in no way are suicide missions acceptable, that what IS are doing is Baghy and Fitnah etc... and they are to be considered outlaws according to Islamic Law. In fact you will find very few respected traditional Imams, Sheikhs and scholars who will defend IS. This group and these Jihadi types appeal to Muslims who's knowledge of Islam is limited to a very narrow sphere of classical scholars such as Ibn Taymiyya and others that the Salafis love. While they reject many others.

    The point is that yes IS has valid roots in Islam. So do other views and sects.

    But there is no such thing as a "True Islam" - except of course in the mind of the believer, then it is their particular version, be it Sufi, Shia, modernist, traditional, ikhwani, salafi etc...
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #15 - October 13, 2014, 07:34 PM

    I know from my own years of battling with literalists like the Salafis, that they are in fact very selective about the sources they accept and those they reject. The moderates are equally selective. The Sufis also. Speak to non-Salafi and non-Ikhwani Sunni shiekhs, such as our own Abdul Hakim Murad and they can cite libraries of "authentic sources" to show you that in no-way should prisoners be beheaded, in no way are suicide missions acceptable, that what IS are doing is Baghy and Fitnah etc... and they are to be considered outlaws according to Islamic Law. In fact you will find very few respected traditional Imams, Sheikhs and scholars who will defend IS. This group and these Jihadi types appeal to Muslims who's knowledge of Islam is limited to a very narrow sphere of classical scholars such as Ibn Taymiyya and others that the Salafis love. While they reject many others.


    Forget about what the scholars say, they themselves are shaped by the political regimes of the countries in which they reside. Can we agree that, according to the earliest sources on Islam, Muhammad did behead captives?
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #16 - October 13, 2014, 07:41 PM

    you dropped the ball but then you played a blinder AA  Afro


    Cute Billy

    Hi
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #17 - October 13, 2014, 07:44 PM

    you dropped the ball but then you played a blinder AA  Afro


    haha didn't see that - thanks mate  Afro
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #18 - October 13, 2014, 07:51 PM

    Forget about what the scholars say, they themselves are shaped by the political regimes of the countries in which they reside. Can we agree that, according to the earliest sources on Islam, Muhammad did behead captives?


    Sometimes he did (i.e. Khaybar) sometimes he didn't (i.e Badr)

    You seem to have missed my point. There is no 'one' Islam. No single, consistent set of rules.

    Any ruling you come up with will inevitably be an interoperation of the various sources.

    If you were to take a poll of scholars from around the world on the subject of beheading captives, I guarantee you that the vast majority will say it's not allowed.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #19 - October 13, 2014, 08:04 PM

    If you were to take a poll of scholars from around the world on the subject of beheading captives, I guarantee you that the vast majority will say it's not allowed.


    There is no free speech in the Islamic World. I am no expert on this, but I tend to think that a scholar who would be calling for the establishment of a global Caliphate would not only be thrown in jail in places like Egypt and UAE, but would find it hard to establish the credentials to be considered a respected scholar in the first place. But you may be better informed than me on this point.

    Now if you were taking a poll of scholars within the territory of the Islamic State, you would find that 100% of them would support what IS does as Islamic.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #20 - October 13, 2014, 08:08 PM

    This is from the Islam Q & A site, which is a Salafi/Wahabbi site. In other words it represents the views that the Jihadists largely hold themselves. Not sure what percentage Salafis are but they are definitely a minority of Muslims as a whole - so most Muslims will have a less harsh interpretation than they do.

    http://islamqa.info/en/13241

    ...War in Islam should not be waged for the sole purpose of shedding blood or seeking vengeance. If the Muslims capture them and take them to a place that has been prepared for them, they should not harm them or torture them with beatings, depriving them of food and water, leaving them out in the sun or the cold, burning them with fire, or putting covers over their mouths, ears and eyes and putting them in cages like animals. Rather they should treat them with kindness and mercy, feed them well and encourage them to enter Islam...

    ...Prisoners should be detained until it is decided what is the best move. The ruler of the Muslims should detain prisoners until he decides what is in the Muslims’ best interests. He may ransom them for money, or exchange them for Muslim prisoners, or release them for nothing in return, or distribute them among the Muslims as slaves, or kill the men, but not the women and children, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade killing the latter. The purpose behind detaining prisoners is so that the Muslims may be protected from their evil. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to enjoin the Muslims to treat prisoners well, whereas the Romans and those who came before them the Assyrians and Pharaohs, all used to put out their prisoners’ eyes with hot irons, and flay them alive, feeding their skins to dogs, such that the prisoners preferred death to life.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #21 - October 13, 2014, 08:14 PM

    ^ Killing the male captives is still an option there

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #22 - October 13, 2014, 08:16 PM

    Yes it is. Though I did say that is the Salafi view.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #23 - October 13, 2014, 08:21 PM

    This is Qaradawi's response to the question (he is an Ikhwani) - his view is only war criminals are allowed to be killed.

    http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/international-relations-and-jihad/relations-during-war/170233.html

    Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

    When Muslims engage in battle with enemy troops, they should not give all their attention to capturing the enemy soldiers, their primary concern is to vanquish the enemy, after which comes the issue of capturing them. When the Muslims capture their enemies, they are required to treat them well. When deciding what to do with them afterwards, they are either to be released for free [if they are not expected to pose any threat to the Muslims' safety in the future], or to set them free in return for a ransom.

    Muslim jurists have differed over the option of killing them; some are for and others are against it. Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is of the opinion that it is only the war criminals among the captives who are to be killed.

    In this regard, the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:

    "It is one of the results of war that there are captives on both sides. Our point of concentration here is on the Muslims' stance when they hold their enemies in captivity as was the case following the battles of Badr, Banu Quraydhah, Banu Al-Mustaleq, etc.

    The first point that sheds light in this regard is that Islam stipulates that captives should be treated well and that their human rights should be observed. Moreover, the Qur'an treats the captives on an equal footing with the weak categories of society that deserve sympathy and charity such as the orphans and the needy. Allah the Almighty describes the righteous who are worthy of His pleasure and entering Paradise: “Lo! The righteous shall drink of a cup whereof the mixture is of water of Kafur. A spring wherefrom the slaves of Allah drink, making it gush forth abundantly. Because they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide spreading. And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for love of Him. (Saying): We feed you, for the sake of Allah only. We wish for no reward nor thanks from you.” (Al-Insan: 5-9).

    Allah the Almighty addressed His Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) regarding the captives that the Muslims had captured during the Great Battle of Badr, saying: “O Prophet! Say unto those captives who are in your hands: If Allah knows any good in your hearts He will give you better than that which has been taken from you, and will forgive you. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Al-Anfal: 70).

    Contemplating this verse, we find that Almighty Allah orders His Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to deal with the captives kindly so that they might be attracted to Islam.

    No Enemy Captives are to Be Held before their Army is Vanquished

    One of the strategic rules introduced by Islam is that no attention should be paid to capturing the enemy on the battlefield before vanquishing them altogether in a way that they will be subdued. Should the Muslims focus on holding the enemy soldiers in captivity, before achieving a concise victory over them, the enemy might think of launching another war against the Muslims in the future.

    Allah the Almighty blamed His Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) following the Battle of Badr for being concerned during the battle, with capturing enemies before subduing the whole army of the enemy. Allah the Almighty says in this regard:

    “It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has thoroughly subdued the land. You look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looks to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in Might, Wise.” (Al-Anfal: 67).

    In this verse, "temporal goods of this world" refers to the ransom the Muslims expected to take in return for setting the enemy captives free. Here, Allah the Almighty objects that the Muslims seek to have captives before vanquishing the enemy and subduing it altogether.

    It is important to note that blame in this verse, is for taking captives before subduing the enemy altogether, not for taking the ransom instead of killing them as is usually mentioned in the biographies written about the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

    This is supported by Almighty Allah's words: "Now when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when you have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens." (Muhammad: 4)

    This verse indicates that the primary concern of the Muslims on the battlefield is "smiting of the necks" of the enemy until they have been routed altogether, and then comes "making fast of bonds," which refers to holding the remaining defeated enemies in captivity.

    War in Islam is not fought for the sake of bloodshed, nor is there in Islam any instruction to the effect that after vanquishing the enemy, all its male members who are held in captivity are to be beheaded as is the case in the Torah. After completely subduing the enemy, the Muslims can capture its soldiers.

    What is to Be Done after Capturing Enemies?

    As mentioned in Surat Muhammad, verse 4 (quoted above), there are two choices regarding what is to be done regarding captives. These are, "either grace or ransom." These are the only choices mentioned in this verse regarding captives.

    "Grace" here refers to releasing the captives out of showing mercy for the sake of Almighty Allah. This will affect them positively and may attract them to Islam.

    "Ransom," in addition to its main meaning, i.e., setting the captives free in return for money, also refers to exchanging captives between the warring sides. Muslims can exchange the captives they hold for Muslim captives in the hands of the enemy. In such a process a captive from either side may be exchanged for one or more from the other side, depending on the importance and rank of the exchanged captive and the bargain made between both sides.

    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) released the captives the Muslims had captured in the Battle of Badr for ransom, for the Muslims were, at that time, in need of money [to help them in the establishment of the emerging Islamic state]. He (peace and blessings be upon him) did so also because he knew the families of the captives in Makkah were financially able to pay the ransom.

    It was reported that some men of the Ansar asked for permission to meet the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). When they met him (peace and blessings be upon him), they said: "Oh Allah's Messenger! Allow us to give up the ransom demanded for our nephew `Abass ibn Abdul-Mutalib." The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Do not leave even a dirham for it.”

    Concerning the captives whose families could not afford the ransom, he (peace and blessings be upon him) released them on condition that each of them would do a service, within his capability, for the Muslim community, such as teaching ten Muslim children how to read and write. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not fear that those polytheists might fill the minds of the young Muslims with bad ideas about Islam, for the operation was done under the supervision of the Muslim community.

    Zayd ibn Thabit Al-Ansari, one of the Muslims entrusted with the task of recording the Revelation in writing, had been one of those taught reading and writing at the hands of the captives of Badr.

    Releasing captives in return for their teaching some Muslims is an indication that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was the first person to have combated illiteracy in a practical way, which was an unprecedented step at that time.

    Can Captives Be Enslaved or Killed?

    Jurists have two other additional options with regard to captives. These are either enslaving or killing them.

    These two options are not mentioned in the Qur'an; they are, rather, derived from the Sunnah and the actions of the companions and the rightly-guided Caliphs.

    Al-Hasan Al-Basri, an eminent righteous scholar, was reported to have said: "It is not lawful to keep captives in shackles; they are either be set free out of grace or released for ransom."

    On the other hand, there are some jurists who say that there is no alternative in the case of polytheist captives other than killing them. Those jurists are of the opinion that the verse that mentions "grace" and "ransom" is abrogated by Allah's words:

    "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (At-Tawbah: 5).

    A third point of view, mainly from At-Tabarani, an eminent scholar, is that both verses which mention "ransom" and "grace" and that which mentions slaying them are applicable in the case of captives. No verse abrogates the other. According to this view, verse 5, Surat At-Tawba means that killing them is an option too, for the rest of this verse includes "and take them captives…" in which case the Imam (ruler of the Muslims), reflecting on what is in the best interests of the Muslims, is to decide whether to kill them or release them either for free or for ransom. This is derived from the way the Prophet handled the cases of captives. For example, he (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered that `Uqbah ibn Abu Mu`ait and An-Nadhar ibn Al-Harith, who were captives at the Battle of Badr, be killed. And at the conquest of Makkah, it was said to him that Ibn Kattal, an evil enemy of Islam, had sought refuge at the Sacred House of Al-Ka`bah to prevent the Muslims from killing him. He (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Kill him (any way)". He (peace and blessings be upon him) also released some captives for free and some others for ransom.

    At-Tabarani denied that the verse of Surat Muhammad concerning captives is abrogated by the verse in Surat At-Tawbah, for both verses can be reconciled with one another (as clarified above). Abrogation is not to be regarded unless there is no way to reconcile the verse (or the hadith) said to have been abrogated.

    Contemplating the Qur'anic texts and hadiths concerning the issue at hand, I agree with Imam Al-Hassan Al-Basri that the basic ruling to be applied to captives is either to set them free out of grace or for ransom [which also implies exchange of captives] according to Allah's words: 'and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens' (Muhammad: 4)

    But there is an exception to be followed with criminals of war who are held in captivity. They are to be killed as a punishment for the atrocities they have committed against the Muslims- as was the case with `Uqbah ibn Abu Mu`ait, Ibn Khattal, the Jews of Banu Quraydhah, and the like. Such criminals are to be killed according to (the first option mentioned) in verse 5, Surat At-Tawbah."
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #24 - October 13, 2014, 08:23 PM

    That is nice Abu, but the topic is not what Muslims of the 21st Century think of IS and what they do. That is another topic entirely. The topic is whether IS is Islamic.

    There is no need to even look at what scholars of the 21st Century think. We have all of the earliest sources about Muhammad and what he did available to us, we don't need a scholar to do the thinking for us.

    (And yes it is a well known phenomena that religious people tend to get their morals from within themselves and project their own morality onto their religion through selective cherry picking.)

    If Muhammad sometimes beheaded captives and sometimes didn't, as you yourself stated, that would suggest that both practices could be considered Islamic (both beheading captives and not beheading captives).
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #25 - October 13, 2014, 08:25 PM

    Yes it is. Though I did say that is the Salafi view.

    Somehow I read it differently than what you wrote wacko

    Quoting IslamQA is a pretty sure way to get you labeled as an Islamophobe when discussing with Muslims grin12

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  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #26 - October 13, 2014, 08:26 PM

    But there is an exception to be followed with criminals of war who are held in captivity. They are to be killed as a punishment for the atrocities they have committed against the Muslims- as was the case with `Uqbah ibn Abu Mu`ait, Ibn Khattal, the Jews of Banu Quraydhah, and the like. Such criminals are to be killed according to (the first option mentioned) in verse 5, Surat At-Tawbah."


    How could the Banu Qurayza Jews be considered "war criminals"? Did they ever even fight in any wars with Muhammad, except when he attacked their citadel?
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #27 - October 13, 2014, 08:28 PM

    I am sure IS considers Kurds war criminals too.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #28 - October 13, 2014, 08:33 PM

    Somehow I read it differently than what you wrote wacko

    Quoting IslamQA is a pretty sure way to get you labeled as an Islamophobe when discussing with Muslims grin12


    lol... well that's why I quoted it - so I couldn't be accused of quoting wishy washy liberal Muslims  Tongue
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #29 - October 13, 2014, 08:35 PM

    Pesky you! Cheesy

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