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Theme Changer

 Topic: Is Islamic State Islamic?

 (Read 15648 times)
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  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #30 - October 13, 2014, 08:39 PM

    If Muhammad sometimes beheaded captives and sometimes didn't, as you yourself stated, that would suggest that both practices could be considered Islamic (both beheading captives and not beheading captives).


    Erm... yes... which is what I said right at the beginning. That IS is definitely a product of Islamic belief, but is not the only product of Islam.

    Islam speaks with many voices. It is not one homogenous entity.

    As I said previously, those who say that IS an aberration and has nothing to with Islam are either ignorant or dishonest.

    But those who say IS is the "True Islam" - are wrong also because there is no true Islam. Just interpretations.

    Each group is selective about what they see in Islam.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #31 - October 13, 2014, 08:43 PM

    How could the Banu Qurayza Jews be considered "war criminals"? Did they ever even fight in any wars with Muhammad, except when he attacked their citadel?


    Oh boy if I could I had a pound for everytime a Muslim apologist has told me that the Jewish tribes betrayed their agreement with the Muslims and were plotting to kill him blah blah blah... I'd have... erm quite a few pounds  grin12
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #32 - October 13, 2014, 08:50 PM

    I am sure IS considers Kurds war criminals too.


    Sadly, I suspect you are right. But other Muslims would disagree.

    And you mentioned about IS scholars. They don't have any scholars. They are Iraqis and Syrians who were either members of al-Qa'ida or were Ba'thists. Plus a load of international cowboy Jihadists like that Australian psychopath that took his son out there and got him to pose with heads. Most of those guys knowledge of Islam is about a shallow as their humanity.

    Now I'm not saying they don't have authentic sources and justifications. Only that they are not the "only" outcome of Islam.

    Again, Islam has many traditions and speaks with many voices.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #33 - October 13, 2014, 08:57 PM

    AA is right.

    IS do not represent the only 'true' form of Islam and to say so is wrong and marginalises the majority of Muslims who reject them

    The problem is that they represent one 'plausible' form of Islam based on some traditions of Islam, and this is compounded by problems of general Quranic inerrancy and other stuff.

    this is why so many people - Muslims and non Muslims - are tied up in knots over this


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #34 - October 13, 2014, 08:58 PM

    "Plotting" is not a war crime in itself. Especially if there is no evidence to convict them.

    I believe the Caliph, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi has a PHD in Islamic Studies. And that the leader of Boko Haram is fluent in Classical Arabic and studied under some influential Salafist scholars. But that is just what I read in some news articles. But if IS is allowed to grow, they will have plenty of scholars, I have no doubt about that.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #35 - October 13, 2014, 10:53 PM

    I have been closely following the debate between those that suggest Islamic State is a natural product of Islamic belief and those who claim that it is an aberation that has little if anything to do with Islam.  The former is typified by Sam Harris, the latter by Karen Armstrong.  The review of Armstrong's latest book (link below) quite neatly sums up the arguments, but my conclusions are slightly different.  It seems to me that Islam is the primary cause of Islamic State.  Without Islam, people would be angry about the state of the Middle East and the West's contributions to its problems, but they wouldn't be gleefully chopping off aid workers' heads.


    Don't think it's a binary choice. Is it likely there will always be violent and fundamentalist strains within Islam? Yes, they haven't disappeared from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or even Buddhism, so yeah it will always be a problem. But are groups as large, active, and dangerous as IS a necessary feature of Islam? Not at all.

    IS is of course rooted in Islam but was forged under particular objective historical conditions. If the Iraq War had not happened they likely wouldn't exist at all. Now of course other similarly-minded groups like Al-Qaeda would exist Iraq War or no, but they too were created in particular historical conditions apart from Islam itself. Today's jihadism only goes back to about 1979 or so after a long period of increasing secularization in the Muslim world since the 19th century so in that sense it could be viewed as aberration as well-- like I said it's not an "either/or" scenario. Today's groups are the result of both internal forces in Islam and external forces such as the undermining of secular governments and movements in the Muslim world by "the West" during the Cold War, the Soviet-Afghan War, the Iraq War, the fall of the Ottoman Empire and subsequent division amongst the European powers, etc.

    It is worth noting, however, that IS does tend to play fast and loose with sharia when it doesn't suit their desires. Yeah some of what IS does is definitely motivated by their belief in sharia, while other things (such as enslaving Yazidis or executing an aid worker after their own sharia court cleared him of espionage) are pretty much just them doing what they want and making a weak and tortured religious argument to justify it. Even Al-Qaeda has denounced a lot of the shit they've been doing as "unislamic."

    Quote
    Or is Islam (not Muslims note) as dangerous as I think?


    That depends entirely on where you live. Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, even Egypt and Algeria, yeah it can be pretty fuckin dangerous. But in the UK or US? I can think of at least a hundred things that are more dangerous to me than Islam. Much, much more likely to get killed by a cop, neighbor, coworker, jealous boyfriend, or some random dude in this country than a Muslim terrorist. And it's not Muslims doing the oppression and taking away my rights in the US, it's my own countrymen. Both nominal/secular and religious Christians and Jews are doing way more damage to my country than any Muslim could dream of. So yeah, it's all about perspective.

    fuck you
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #36 - October 14, 2014, 01:31 AM

    Yeah some of what IS does is definitely motivated by their belief in sharia, while other things (such as enslaving Yazidis or executing an aid worker after their own sharia court cleared him of espionage) are pretty much just them doing what they want and making a weak and tortured religious argument to justify it. Even Al-Qaeda has denounced a lot of the shit they've been doing as "unislamic."


    Why do you say enslaving Yazidis is not Islamic? Enslaving and raping Pagans was a big part of Islam during Muhammad's time, and enslaving Christians too in later centuries. There were no Yazidis in 7th Century Arabia. So we cannot be sure what Muhammad would have ruled about them. My guess is that since they are monotheists, Muhammad would have allowed them into his community without forcing Islam on them, if they paid the Jizyah. He usually sought alliances with other monotheist groups. However IS has decided to declare them as pagans, perhaps partly because there are simply no real pagans around, and they are longing to relive that part of the Sunnah, so they feel they are within the standards of Islam to take them as slaves and rape them.

    And al Qaeda is not a benchmark for who is Islamic. They blow up civilian targets and kill women and children, which you are not supposed to do in Islam. IS seem more Islamic than Al Qaeda, they target civilians less.

    Quote
    And it's not Muslims doing the oppression and taking away my rights in the US, it's my own countrymen. Both nominal/secular and religious Christians and Jews are doing way more damage to my country than any Muslim could dream of. So yeah, it's all about perspective.


    What rights have your own countrymen taken away from you?
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #37 - October 14, 2014, 09:21 AM

    And al Qaeda is not a benchmark for who is Islamic


    Neither is IS

    They blow up civilian targets and kill women and children, which you are not supposed to do in Islam.


    So do IS. Who do you think has been behind all the suicide bombings as Shi'a shrines and market places and Shi'a areas?

    IS seem more Islamic than Al Qaeda, they target civilians less.


    Not sure what news reports you read, Tony, but on the contrary IS have taken batshitcrazy motherfucker to a new level.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #38 - October 14, 2014, 11:40 AM

    I never said IS stands as a benchmark for who is Islamic. I just thought it was strange that someone would say "even al qaeda are against them", as if that should stand as evidence of them being unIslamic. I am well aware that they do use suicide bombings and target civilians, but they mix this tactic with other tactics and conventional warfare. Whereas al qaeda seem to only do terrorist attacks targeting civilians, at least this is where they are most succesful.

    When you look at what IS does, so much of it is a copycat of something that was done during Muhammad's time. According to one news story, they even tied a woman to cars and drove in opposite directions to split her body apart, which is an obvious nod to the execution of Umm Qirfa from the Sirah. This reliving of the barbarous age of the 7th century is something that I have not seen with Al Qaeda, or any other Muslim group.

    The only thing that comes close is the taliban blowing up Buddhist statues, which has obvious parallels in the destruction of Arab paganism. Some Egyptian salafists have expressed a desire to destroy Egyptian antiquities, but that is all talk so far with no action.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #39 - October 14, 2014, 12:30 PM

    they mix this tactic with other tactics and conventional warfare


    So do al-Qaidah. i.e. in Afghanistan in the past and in Syria (Jabhatu-Nusrah) at present.

    Whereas al qaeda seem to only do terrorist attacks targeting civilians


    See above.

    When you look at what IS does, so much of it is a copycat of something that was done during Muhammad's time. According to one news story, they even tied a woman to cars and drove in opposite directions to split her body apart, which is an obvious nod to the execution of Umm Qirfa from the Sirah. This reliving of the barbarous age of the 7th century is something that I have not seen with Al Qaeda, or any other Muslim group.


    Agreed! IS have taken things to a new level of barbarity. That they would claim Islam supports them is of course to be expected.

    But is it truly Islamic? Like I said before there is no "True Islam" - Only interpretations. I have no doubt the vast majority of Muslims would not view the Umm Qirfa murder as a practice that should be followed. Firstly because the prophet never ordered it and was not present. It was Zayd who ordered it. Secondly it is not a well supported and confirmed "sunnah" - it only appears in the Sirah of Ibn Ishaq - and as I say is not a sunnah of the prophet.

    In fact I wonder if IS actually did this. I have heard reports that al-Baghdadi has ordered the eating of babies and I remember there was the report that they forced women to be circumcised. There is a lot of propaganda both ways, so I have to wonder about this.

    But let's assume it's true, IS are without doubt the most barbaric of the barbaric groups yet. Yes they claim what they do is Islam. Yes they have authentic evidence to support them. Yes their actions represent a strong tradition in Islam.

    But no - and a thousand times no, are they representative of the fictional thing called "True Islam" that you seem to insist exists.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #40 - October 14, 2014, 01:35 PM

    But no - and a thousand times no, are they representative of the fictional thing called "True Islam" that you seem to insist exists.


    Well is there a True Christianity? a True Marxism? a True Nazism? Is there a single "True" anything?  Just claiming that there is no "True Islam" seems to be just dodging the discussion.

    For me personally, I think there was a "True Islam". Though I couldn't be 100% certain, I think Muhammad probably did exist. He did preach a religion and ideology. And though he did contradict himself at times, and was probably making it up as he went along, and changing his mind about stuff to suit changing circumstances. At the end of his life, there was a "True Islam", though it may have contradicted itself and been broad enough to attract a variety of different kinds of supporters.

    Can we today, all these centuries later, know every aspect of this "True Islam"? No, but the closest we can come is by looking at the earliest sources on his life and deeds. I honestly do not see that IS has done anything that stands out as contradictory to Muhammad's teachings, according to the earliest sources.

    But let me stress that I never meant to imply that they are the only group that do not contradict Islamic principles. I think that even the original Islam was probably broad enough to include a variety of philosophical outlooks and lifestyles. That is why it was a success.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #41 - October 14, 2014, 01:47 PM

    Quote
    GENEVA CONVENTIONS

    The Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols form the core of international humanitarian law, which regulates the conduct of armed conflict and seeks to limit its effects. They protect people not taking part in hostilities and those who are no longer doing so.


    https://www.icrc.org/en/war-and-law/treaties-customary-law/geneva-conventions

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #42 - October 15, 2014, 04:04 PM

    Why do you say enslaving Yazidis is not Islamic?


    I didn't.

    Quote
    And al Qaeda is not a benchmark for who is Islamic.


    I never said they were. That was your own erroneous inference.

    Quote
    What rights have your own countrymen taken away from you?


    Seriously? You have an internet connection and read English and don't know? If you don't there is no point discussing any of this with you further, cause, mentally speaking, we aren't even on the same fucking planet.

    fuck you
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #43 - October 15, 2014, 05:14 PM

    Seriously? You have an internet connection and read English and don't know? If you don't there is no point discussing any of this with you further, cause, mentally speaking, we aren't even on the same fucking planet.


    It's a simple question, what rights have been taken away from you? If you can't answer that then don't claim that your countrymen have taken away your rights.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #44 - October 15, 2014, 05:33 PM

    Just claiming that there is no "True Islam" seems to be just dodging the discussion.


    No it's not. It's at the very heart of what this thread is asking.

    Correct me if I'm mistaken but the OP is asking whether IS represents true Islam or not?

    My answer is that there is no "true Islam" and while IS certainly represents an authentic view within Islam - it is not the only view of Islam. There are many views of Islam. Each claims it is authentic and drawn from Qur'an and Sunna. But each are different in the way they select what to accept and what to reject and how to interpret it.

    For me personally, I think there was a "True Islam".


    You are of course entitled to your view.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #45 - October 15, 2014, 05:42 PM

    No it's not. It's at the very heart of what this thread is asking.

    The OP is asking - as far as I see - whether IS represents true Islam or not. My answer is that there is no "true Islam" and while IS certainly represents an authentic view within Islam - it is not the only view of Islam. What I'm saying is that there are several views of Islam. Each is authentic in so far as they draw from Qur'an and Sunna - but each are different in the way they select what to accept and what to reject and how to interpret it.

    I'm not sure why you are having difficulty understanding that.

    WTF???

    Didn't you just say that to insist there is no true Islam is dodging the question?

    Then in your next breath you claim that there is a "true Islam"

    Make your mind up, Tony.


    I do think there was a 'true Islam' wayyyy in the past! We will probably never know the fullness of what that was, but get a good clue through studies as in Zaotar's and others posts.

    Now it is up to people where they want the Islamic culture to go, we should support the more critical forms and not the most literal/violent forms.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #46 - October 15, 2014, 06:16 PM

    I do think there was a 'true Islam' wayyyy in the past! We will probably never know the fullness of what that was, but get a good clue through studies as in Zaotar's and others posts.

    Now it is up to people where they want the Islamic culture to go, we should support the more critical forms and not the most literal/violent forms.


    I think the original poster wanted to know if "The Islamic State" (ISIL) represented "True Islam".

    In my opinion they don't.

    But they do represent an authentic trend within Islam. But only one of many.

    Most people here should know by now that the Jihadi version of Islam stems from the Salafi/Wahhabi version of Islam which arose in the 19th and has now become the most militant form of Islam.

    It is not however the only form of Islam and I don't believe it is fair to call it "True Islam" - as such a thing imho doesn't actually exist.

    What we have are many trends that took root from earliest times.

    It should be noted that before Wahhabism and Salafism took hold in our modern era, it was Sufi Islam that held sway in most Muslim lands.

    As I said before, over the 40 years of Muhammad;'s prophethood he did and said many things - many contradictory things. The Salafis and the Jihadists are very selective about what they accept and reject  - just as other groups are.

    Like I say the Islamic State represent a very authentic view of Islam - but not the only or "true" view. imho there is no "True Islam". Of course the Islamic State say there is - every Muslim says there is!! But we should know better than that. Islam was not the product of a divine being with a unified plan and who made Islam a consistent and unified set of divine rules and precepts. It was the product of a human (or many human beings) being over a long period of time often made up on the spot in reaction to events. It is absurd to think that there is a single, unified and consistent religion in there.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #47 - October 15, 2014, 06:21 PM

    its less a question of if ISIS's version of Islam is 'true' as to whether it is plausible. And out of certain traditions, it has plausibility, it draws on scriptures and traditions and schools that have some 'validity'.

    Those who disagree with them can also make a plausible case. So what you have is different versions of Islam, each saying they are true, but in the context of Islam as a closed system, the jihadis do have a claim amongst many to interpreting Islam 'legitimately'


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #48 - October 15, 2014, 06:22 PM

    So question is What is True Islam and who represents true Islam? And in  the past 1400 years  Who represented true Islam ?

    Here is  1400 years of Islamic history for those who would like to answer that question

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #49 - October 15, 2014, 06:27 PM

    The earlier post discussing what to do in a battle said not to take prisoners when fighting.  Doesn't that mean kill them if fighting is continuing?

    IS looks like it has plenty of Islamic justification - could they not argue they are continually at war?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #50 - October 15, 2014, 06:27 PM

    I think the original poster wanted to know if "The Islamic State" (ISIL) represented "True Islam".

    In my opinion they don't.

    But they do represent an authentic trend within Islam. But only one of many.

    Most people here should know by now that the Jihadi version of Islam stems from the Salafi/Wahhabi version of Islam which arose in the 19th and has now become the most militant form of Islam.

    It is not however the only form of Islam and I don't believe it is fair to call it "True Islam" - as such a thing imho doesn't actually exist.

    What we have are many trends that took root from earliest times.

    It should be noted that before Wahhabism and Salafism took hold in our modern era, it was Sufi Islam that held sway in most Muslim lands.

    As I said before, over the 40 years of Muhammad;'s prophethood he did and said many things - many contradictory things. The Salafis and the Jihadists are very selective about what they accept and reject  - just as other groups are.

    Like I say the Islamic State represent a very authentic view of Islam - but not the only or "true" view. imho there is no "True Islam". Of course the Islamic State say there is - every Muslim says there is!! But we should know better than that. Islam was not the product of a divine being with a unified plan and who made Islam a consistent and unified set of divine rules and precepts. It was the product of a human (or many human beings) being over a long period of time often made up on the spot in reaction to events. It is absurd to think that there is a single, unified and consistent religion in there.


    Absolutely agreed hence my post. The debate around this is huge at the moment! Abu Ali, you are doing great work in both this thread and in the translation thread, keep on going Sir!

    its less a question of if ISIS's version of Islam is 'true' as to whether it is plausible. And out of certain traditions, it has plausibility, it draws on scriptures and traditions and schools that have some 'validity'.

    Those who disagree with them can also make a plausible case. So what you have is different versions of Islam, each saying they are true, but in the context of Islam as a closed system, the jihadis do have a claim amongst many to interpreting Islam 'legitimately'




    We have to delegitimise the jihadi strain by promotion of other more developed ideals, not just through secularism but humanism, socialism, environmentalism. We have to support policies and decisions being made from the evidence not from 'feelings'. Support what creates the most healthy societies, this may be different things in different countries, but sharing the same theme of enhancing the lives of people, in part by proper care of their surroundings but also people.

    If people think apostates should be killed, this should be a personal thing only extending as far as their skin. If they apostasise they can be my guest and kill themselves, not others for doing the same.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #51 - October 15, 2014, 06:32 PM

    its less a question of if ISIS's version of Islam is 'true' as to whether it is plausible. And out of certain traditions, it has plausibility, it draws on scriptures and traditions and schools that have some 'validity'.


    Yes, absolutely and I said right in my first post that those who say ISIS is an aberration are either ignorant or dishonest.

    I am just concerned that the far-right have a very simplistic view of Islam (perhaps ignorant would be a better word) and it is their agenda to portray "True Islam" as being the Jihadi version and any Muslim denying that it is they accuse of Taqiiya - lying for the sake of Islam.

    I was wary that the original question not fall into that trap. (As many of you here who know me, will know I am always very wary of that danger lol Wink )
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #52 - October 15, 2014, 06:34 PM

    and in the translation thread, keep on going Sir!


    Thanks Lily - talking of which I want to push on with it and mustn't get sidetracked going over discussions I've had a million times  grin12
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #53 - October 15, 2014, 06:43 PM

    Thanks for the posts Abu Ali, you put it very well indeed.
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #54 - October 15, 2014, 06:50 PM

    Thanks for the posts Abu Ali, you put it very well indeed.


    Keep on with your good work too sir! It is a scary but exciting time in Islamic circles!
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #55 - October 15, 2014, 07:20 PM

    Thanks for the posts Abu Ali, you put it very well indeed.


    Thanks, Zaotar!
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #56 - October 15, 2014, 08:48 PM

    Quote
    The Assassins (from Arabic: حشّاشين‎ Ḥashshāshīn[1]) were an order of Nizari Ismailis, particularly those of Persia and Syria, that formed in the late 11th century. In time, the order began to pose a strong military threat to Sunni Seljuq authority within the Persian territories by capturing and inhabiting many mountain fortresses under the leadership of Hassan-i Sabbah.

    The name "Assassin" is often said to derive from the Arabic Hashishin or "users of hashish",[2] thought to have been originally derogatory and used by their adversaries during the Middle Ages. In actuality, the word is a misnomer for the Nizari Ismailis applied abusively to them by the Mustali Ismailis during the fall of the decaying Ismaili Fatimid Empire when the two streams separated from each other. In 1122 the Mustalian dynasty Fatimid caliph al-Amir referred to the Nizaris as the hashishiyya "without any explanation" and "without actually accusing them of using hashish, a product of hemp".[3] The term hashishiyya or hashishi as used by Muslim sources is used metaphorically in its abusive sense (i.e. "social outcasts", "low-class rabble", etc.), while the literal interpretation of this term in referring to the Nizaris (as hashish consuming intoxicated assassins) is rooted in the fantasies of medieval Westerners.[4]

    Mentions of Assassins were preserved within European sources such as the writings of Marco Polo, where they are depicted as trained killers, responsible for the systematic elimination of opposing figures.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #57 - October 15, 2014, 08:53 PM

    Yes, absolutely and I said right in my first post that those who say ISIS is an aberration are either ignorant or dishonest.

    I am just concerned that the far-right have a very simplistic view of Islam (perhaps ignorant would be a better word) and it is their agenda to portray "True Islam" as being the Jihadi version and any Muslim denying that it is they accuse of Taqiiya - lying for the sake of Islam.

    I was wary that the original question not fall into that trap. (As many of you here who know me, will know I am always very wary of that danger lol Wink )

    IIRC, yourself and others are on record in other threads as saying that overall, the hardliners have the best textual backing for their interpretation. Would it then be fair to say that the Salafi version of Islam is not just 'plausible' but 'the most plausible'? (if not the Most Merciful)

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #58 - October 15, 2014, 09:37 PM

    IIRC, yourself and others are on record in other threads as saying that overall, the hardliners have the best textual backing for their interpretation. Would it then be fair to say that the Salafi version of Islam is not just 'plausible' but 'the most plausible'? (if not the Most Merciful)


    Yes, and I stand by that but rather than specifying any group, I would say that in general the more traditional and literalist groups have plenty of evidence in Qur'an and Sunnah to support them, while the more liberal or moderate Muslims have to work a lot harder to get their evidence - and sometimes be imaginative.

    But I don't think IS/ISIL has the best textual evidence for what they are doing. Most traditionalists and Salafis regard them as extremists like the Khawarij and have plenty of evidence to show that at least some of what they are doing is Islamically wrong.

  • Is Islamic State Islamic?
     Reply #59 - October 16, 2014, 01:32 AM

    Yeah I get that some of their actions aren't justified by the texts. Then again, that applies to all religious people.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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