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 Topic: The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam

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  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #120 - October 13, 2014, 10:35 PM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 10:26 PM
    I SEE WHAT YOU DID HERE HOLD UP

    YOU SEE?Huh?Huh?Huh?? YOU SEE you misquoted me THIS IS NOT MY SENTENCE BUT RATHER A FATWA finmad so don't misquote me to show bad image in me here this is NOT WHAT I"M saying but what Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, SAID also i see another misquotation here you only focused on [...]
    THAT IS THE SOLE REASON why i quoted this fatwa not the rest i quoted this to show that a man can't practice azil wihtout women permission


    Dude...relax. Two things.

    1. I just hit the quote function to highlight that part. Wasn't trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and make you think you said that. But I'm just telling you that whoever said that is so wrong that it is actually funny. You're giving me the fatwa of someone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about. At all. He clearly has no authority in the matter, as his premise for making his conclusion is false.

    2. Why on Earth are you still talking to me about azl? Like I told you in my last post, that wasn't the part of the hadith that I was trying to point out to you at all.



    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 10:26 PM
    your point is wrong and proven wrong with verse 24:33 and 4:19 read them and about prostitution if you refuse it because of it;s definition today as having sex but with money payment that is what it used to be before
    the sale of captives into slavery and prostitution
    from oxford dictionary  

    the payment here is meant by pleasure NOT money


    So your claim is that 24:33 is saying "Hey, slaveowners, you cannot have sex with your slaves if they don't want you to," and not "You cannot force them into prostitution?"
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #121 - October 13, 2014, 10:36 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on October 13, 2014, 10:29 PM
    Well, I can assure you that's not true. Grin


    Quote from: lua on Today at 09:54 PM
    First off, my point was to show you that slaves are lawful for intercourse without marriage. Also, it is my understanding that both 24:33 and your hadith are about prostitution. That says nothing about the slave owner demanding her to have sex or coercing her into it with his power position over her. And the azl part was not the important part at all, so I don't know why you'd even want to double check with me on that?

    Also, hold up a second:
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on Today at 09:41 PM
    Moreover, withdrawing without her permission diminishes her pleasure, because
    the woman’s pleasure can only be completed after ejaculation. So not asking her permission causes her to lose
    out on pleasure and on the possibility of having children. Hence we state the condition that this may only be
    done with her permission.
     
    That, my friend, is just not even close to true. Cheesy I don't even know how to tell you how wrong that is.


    I SEE WHAT YOU DID HERE HOLD UP

    (Fataawa al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, Fataawa Islamiyyah, vol. 3, p. 190.
    the scholars say that one should not engage in ‘azl with a free woman except with her permission, because she
    has the right to have children. Moreover, withdrawing without her permission diminishes her pleasure, because
    the woman’s pleasure can only be completed after ejaculation. So not asking her permission causes her to lose
    out on pleasure and on the possibility of having children. Hence we state the condition that this may only be
    done with her permission

    YOU SEE?Huh?Huh?Huh?? YOU SEE you misquoted me THIS IS NOT MY SENTENCE BUT RATHER A FATWA finmad so don't misquote me to show bad image in me here this is NOT WHAT I"M saying but what Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, SAID also i see another misquotation here you only focused on (Moreover, withdrawing without her permission diminishes her pleasure, because the woman’s pleasure can only be completed after ejaculation. So not asking her permission causes her to loseout on pleasure and on the possibility of having children. Hence we state the condition that this may only be done with her permission.)

    AND COMPLETLEY MISSED THE MOST important part (the scholars say that one should not engage in ‘azl with a free woman except with her permission,)

    THAT IS THE SOLE REASON why i quoted this fatwa not the rest i quoted this to show that a man can't practice azil wihtout women permission


    YOU SEE what Lua did she misquoted me you can see for yourself this is NOT MY STATEMENT READ IT people finmad finmad finmad furious
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #122 - October 13, 2014, 10:38 PM
     Roll Eyes Read my response, Ahmed. That isn't misquoting you.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #123 - October 13, 2014, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on October 13, 2014, 10:02 PM


    Why does God allow  slavery in the first place?



    No reply?
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #124 - October 13, 2014, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: lua on October 13, 2014, 10:35 PM
    Dude...relax. Two things.

    1. I just hit the quote function to highlight that part. Wasn't trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and make you think you said that. But I'm just telling you that whoever said that is so wrong that it is actually funny. You're giving me the fatwa of someone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about. At all. He clearly has no authority in the matter, as his premise for making his conclusion is false.

    2. Why on Earth are you still talking to me about azl? Like I told you in my last post, that wasn't the part of the hadith that I was trying to point out to you at all.






    So your claim is that 24:33 is saying "Hey, slaveowners, you cannot have sex with your slaves if they don't want you to," and not "You cannot force them into prostitution?"



    1- you made me look like somesort of an idiot with this i don;t care of the sheck is not educated in biology the MAIN point of it that a man can't force a woman into azl (a type of sex) without her permission you completely went oblivious to this and focused on the funny part to make me look like a fool
    2-because that is what people talk about when the mention the hadiths you sited so i assumed you ment about azl aswell if you are referring to the part where it says slave used to carring things AGAIN back to slave treatment

    (So your claim is that 24:33 is saying "Hey, slaveowners, you cannot have sex with your slaves if they don't want you to," and not "You cannot force them into prostitution?")

    READ IT But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity

    What does Chastity means?? it means protection from all sexual intercourse (including rape) means don't force them into sex if they want protection from sexual intercourse i.e consent
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #125 - October 13, 2014, 10:47 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on October 13, 2014, 10:46 PM
    No reply?


    i was busy with lua Dude have a pit of compassion i can't answer a million people here
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #126 - October 13, 2014, 10:50 PM
    I have compassion for you. Lots of it.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #127 - October 13, 2014, 10:51 PM
    I really hope the Yazidi girls who have been taken as slaves can read this thread so they understand their slavery is good slavery
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #128 - October 13, 2014, 10:52 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on October 13, 2014, 10:50 PM
    I have compassion for you. Lots of it.


    me too Angelic Ozonedance
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #129 - October 13, 2014, 10:53 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 13, 2014, 10:51 PM
    I really hope the Yazidi girls who have been taken as slaves can read this thread so they understand their slavery is good slavery


    hmm was that ironic statement? Thinking hard
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #130 - October 13, 2014, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 13, 2014, 09:40 PM
    wat


    Read it please and understand it I'm putting you on Muhammad place so you can see how illogical the statement you guys make that islam allow rape just because there is verses and hadiths that says a man can have sex with his slave (which doesn't mean rape)
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #131 - October 13, 2014, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: lua on October 13, 2014, 09:56 PM
    Where did I say that? When I gave you the advice that you will be taken more seriously and have an easier time communicating your points if you used basic grammar? That's just a fact. It's the advice I give to my husband, too, and all the ESL students I've ever tutored. Take it or leave it, it's for your benefit.


    sorry i really apologize i lost count of you sense there is so many people here asking me it was  Senga who made some sort a statement close to that
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #132 - October 13, 2014, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 13, 2014, 09:53 PM
    Your writing is UNEDUCATED??  writing is uneducated?  Nah.. no nope.. well lua is wrong..


    I apologize it was not lua it was Senga
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #133 - October 13, 2014, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 10:46 PM

    1- you made me look like somesort of an idiot with this i don;t care of the sheck is not educated in biology the MAIN point of it that a man can't force a woman into azl (a type of sex) without her permission you completely went oblivious to this and focused on the funny part to make me look like a fool


    Nope. I'm not going to keep quoting your entire post to reply to one or two lines in it. In fact, I think anyone here would request that you don't do that to their posts, either. It's obnoxious, and it is a distraction.

    I had a response to something in your post. I clicked the quote button and put it in there so that you knew what I was addressing. And then I told you that it was wrong. This is pretty much what we use the quote function for here. I can't help that you immediately suspected I was trying to trick the other readers into thinking that that was your direct quote (besides, don't you think anyone who was reading that page could, you know, scroll up and read your post themselves?), and I can't help that you flew off the handle. That's all on you.

    Now, since we're already talking about it, let me try to rephrase what I said up there: I do not accept this fatwa as any sort of evidence to support any claim, considering that he used a complete inaccuracy to form his conclusion. Do you understand what I'm saying?



    As for the rape claim, two things: First, chaste in this sense is not about to be "has never been touched by a man," but in the Islamic sense, which is what is lawful and chaste according to God. And having sex with your own slave is not unchaste. If you disagree, please explain, down to the very words in Arabic, why this is incorrect and that the modern-day idea of chastity is the one the Quran had in mind.

    Besides this, I can tell already that you're not going to be a very easy participant for me to walk down the path of coercion and power inequality used to gain consent as a form of rape (look into some of the reasons why statutory rape is considered criminal if you're interested), so let's, for the sake of avoiding further exercises in futility, imagine that the Quran did not condone rape. Now, I'd like to see you answer all of the other questions on this thread--the ones I actually did bring up--that you did not provide a satisfactory answer to.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #134 - October 13, 2014, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 11:01 PM
    sorry i really apologize i lost count of you sense there is so many people here asking me it was  Senga who made some sort a statement close to that



    No problem. You've definitely got a lot on your plate in this thread, don't blame you for getting mixed up now and again.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #135 - October 13, 2014, 11:11 PM
    Do you really think a slave girl/woman is really up for sex with her master wacko  most likely not, it's still rape..

    Anyways, even if mohamed did order his people to treat their slaves fairly, so what ? doesn't make us suddenly believe, oh yeah he was good to slaves, maybe he was a real prophet afterall and Islam is a true religion.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #136 - October 13, 2014, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: lua on October 13, 2014, 11:02 PM
    Nope. I'm not going to keep quoting your entire post to reply to one or two lines in it. In fact, I think anyone here would request that you don't do that to their posts, either. It's obnoxious, and it is a distraction.

    I had a response to something in your post. I clicked the quote button and put it in there so that you knew what I was addressing. And then I told you that it was wrong. This is pretty much what we use the quote function for here. I can't help that you immediately suspected I was trying to trick the other readers into thinking that that was your direct quote (besides, don't you think anyone who was reading that page could, you know, scroll up and read your post themselves?), and I can't help that you flew off the handle. That's all on you.

    Now, since we're already talking about it, let me try to rephrase what I said up there: I do not accept this fatwa as any sort of evidence to support any claim, considering that he used a complete inaccuracy to form his conclusion. Do you understand what I'm saying?



    As for the rape claim, two things: First, chaste in this sense is not about to be "has never been touched by a man," but in the Islamic sense, which is what is lawful and chaste according to God. And having sex with your own slave is not unchaste. If you disagree, please explain, down to the very words in Arabic, why this is incorrect and that the modern-day idea of chastity is the one the Quran had in mind.

    Besides this, I can tell already that you're not going to be a very easy participant for me to walk down the path of coercion and power inequality used to gain consent as a form of rape (look into some of the reasons why statutory rape is considered criminal if you're interested), so let's, for the sake of avoiding further exercises in futility, imagine that the Quran did not condone rape. Now, I'd like to see you answer all of the other questions on this thread--the ones I actually did bring up--that you did not provide a satisfactory answer to.


    it's over 2:09 AM now I'm gonna have to go to sleep I'll answer this tomorrow if you want we can have a Skype chat
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #137 - October 13, 2014, 11:14 PM
    I'm not interested in talking on Skype, but thank you for the invitation. When you want to continue this, you'll find me here.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #138 - October 13, 2014, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: suki on October 13, 2014, 11:11 PM
    Do you really think a slave girl/woman is really up for sex with her master wacko  most likely not, it's still rape..

    Anyways, even if mohamed did order his people to treat their slaves fairly, so what ? doesn't make us suddenly believe oh yeah he was good to slaves, maybe he was a real prophet afterall and Islam is a true religion.


    that is completely of the topic i didn't said if Muhammad treatment to slaves was good (which it's) then you all must belive in him NO i never made such statement

    and now about slave women if they gave consent and the gave permission for sex then yes while rape is the total opposite (sex without consent) WHICH is BAD and i showed that here with hadiths and verses and fatwa and the opinion of a MAJOR Islamic scholar imam malik which no one here have ever successfully showed it to me no where in quran or hadith says a man can force himself on his slave girl or his woman for sexual intercourse


    anyway I'm up to sleep now it;s over 2:15 AM I'll come back tomorrow
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #139 - October 13, 2014, 11:25 PM
    A muslim guy can demand or force sex on his wife, so i guess he would with his slave girl too..


    K good  night
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #140 - October 14, 2014, 01:20 AM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 02:55 PM
    Hi guys this is my First ever post here let's keep this civilized and good conversation

    VERY IMPORTANT, read the last note on the bottom of the hypothesis presented before you jump into crazy conclusions about me (like stopspamming did)

    the Hypothesis of slavery allowance in Islam:

    what I'm about to present here is a hypothesis based on ideas and hadiths i read there is no evidence to support it ,(yet) but I'm ready to accept the criticism and change my mind so far when i presented it i got nothing but attacks and it was based or misunderstanding of what i condone
    The Hypothesis:

    The reason why Islam allow slavery (I think) is because of the conditions slaves was in at the time of the 7th century Arabia they were on the streets(will it's not called streets but you get the point) and they had no food no houses to live in no place so Islam allowed slavery so slaves can have a home to live in house to be in and clothes to wear and food to eat otherwise they will die of hunger on streets and will have no food to eat so when there master (if that is what he is called) can feed them give them food and put them in his house they will be fine instead of being homeless in streets Islam doesn't completely allow slavery but partially

    VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: now here is the part you need to lesson to I DON'T CONDONE or allow slavery quite against it i condemn it, so no I'm not saying slavery is good it's just what i presented above is nothing more than a hypothesis based on hadiths and thinking and ideas so everyone be nice i know it's a sensitive topic but again don't say in the comment that i justify or allow slavery because I DON'T you have the right to reject it it's a hypothesis after all just like many hypothesis i heard against Islam

    Thanks for your time and be nice a civilized again i repeat in case of you didn't get it (I don't condone or allow slavery and what i presented was a hypothesis means there is no evidence to back it up yet)
     thnkyu Smiley


    BTW I'm a muslim


    An alternative is a welfare state. Humans developed this system so why can not Allah? Also if there is work available for a slave there is work available to a free person.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #141 - October 14, 2014, 01:25 AM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 04:23 PM
    thanks for the reply as you can see there is so many replies i got I'm gonna get so much busy now anyway here is my take tell me if I'm wrong

    1-will that is all depended on your definition of slavery i read in authentic hadith (slaves are your brothers feed them of what you eat and clothes them don't make them work too hard help them) so i guess Islamic slavery is different and that hadith is authentic but I'm just making a quick reply because i have allot of responses here to deal with as you can see if it was only you i will be happy to give the source


    Treatment of a slave does not justify it. 

    Quote
    3-will there is freeing slave in islam it's in the quran and hadith as i read somewere someone slaped his slave allah apostle commanded him to set him free


    This is punishment for the master. The master commits a crime, as punishment he loses a slave. Since a slave is property this is a fine or seizure of property. The slaves freedom is secondary to the punishment of the master. If the master did not commit a crime the slave is not freed.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #142 - October 14, 2014, 02:26 AM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 07:31 PM
    And Safiyya bint 'Ubaid said:
    "A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore 'Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will." Az-Zuhri said regarding a virgin slave-girl raped by a free man: The judge has to fine the adulterer as much money as is equal to the price of the female slave and the adulterer has to be flogged (according to the Islamic Law); but if the slave woman is a matron, then, according to the verdict of the Imam, the adulterer is not fined but he has to receive the legal punishment (according to the Islamic Law).
    وَقَالَ اللَّيْثُ حَدَّثَنِي نَافِعٌ، أَنَّ صَفِيَّةَ ابْنَةَ أَبِي عُبَيْدٍ، أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ عَبْدًا مِنْ رَقِيقِ الإِمَارَةِ وَقَعَ عَلَى وَلِيدَةٍ مِنَ الْخُمُسِ، فَاسْتَكْرَهَهَا حَتَّى افْتَضَّهَا، فَجَلَدَهُ عُمَرُ الْحَدَّ وَنَفَاهُ، وَلَمْ يَجْلِدِ الْوَلِيدَةَ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَنَّهُ اسْتَكْرَهَهَا‏.‏ قَالَ الزُّهْرِيُّ فِي الأَمَةِ الْبِكْرِ، يَفْتَرِعُهَا الْحُرُّ، يُقِيمُ ذَلِكَ الْحَكَمُ مِنَ الأَمَةِ الْعَذْرَاءِ بِقَدْرِ قِيمَتِهَا، وَيُجْلَدُ، وَلَيْسَ فِي الأَمَةِ الثَّيِّبِ فِي قَضَاءِ الأَئِمَّةِ غُرْمٌ، وَلَكِنْ عَلَيْهِ الْحَدُّ‏.‏
    Reference    : Sahih al-Bukhari 6949
    In-book reference    : Book 89, Hadith 10
    USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Vol. 1, Book 85, Hadith 81



    That is fucking disgusting. I actually feel slightly nauseated.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #143 - October 14, 2014, 02:50 AM
    Anyway, rather than getting into a debate which you obviously don't want, let's stick with your opening post.

    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 02:55 PM
    The reason why Islam allow slavery (I think) is because of the conditions slaves was in at the time of the 7th century Arabia they were on the streets(will it's not called streets but you get the point) and they had no food no houses to live in no place so Islam allowed slavery so slaves can have a home to live in house to be in and clothes to wear and food to eat otherwise they will die of hunger on streets and will have no food to eat so when there master (if that is what he is called) can feed them give them food and put them in his house they will be fine instead of being homeless in streets Islam doesn't completely allow slavery but partially


    Okay, let's explore this. First we have to look into the accepted history. Many of the slaves taken were taken after their people were wiped out and also enslaved. Let's take Saffiyah for example. According to the hadiths she was an adolescent, the daughter of the chief. They were living in a fertile oasis. She had friends, a family, even a husband. If Mo had never murdered and enslaved her people she probably would have grown to prominence in her own right. Instead this life was taken from her. You hypothesise that slavery is a humanitarian act because without slavery and a master to protect them, feed them, clothe them, they would not survive, or if they did live a life of misery. If Saffiyah's people hadn't experienced the horrors they did at the hands of Mo and his men, she would never have been in that position in the first place. It was BECAUSE of Mo she was in that situation. Her people were dead or enslaved. She had no one to turn to because Mo had killed and enslaved those who would aid her. This is also very similar to the story of Rayana.

    When we look at the past 1400 years of islam, slavery is a huge part of it. Muslim armies and raiders kill and capture non muslim peoples. These actions put free men and women in a position where if they flee their masters, not only do they risk islamic punishment if found and recaptured, but because of muslims they have nowhere to go. Your hypothesis that slavery is the lesser evil ignores the fact that islam is the cause of this evil in the first place.

    If it wasn't halal to kill and enslave free people, they never would have been in this position. As to your point on what would happen if they weren't taken as slaves (after muslims put them in that position in the first place) the people could instead have been accepted as human beings and allowed to live and work along with any other person, but you aren't even allowed that unless you have the good fortune of ending up, by purest chance, with a master that would allow it. This isn't biting the hand that feeds you, this is the hand that stole your meal and said you should be grateful for whatever scraps the thief gives you.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #144 - October 14, 2014, 07:13 AM
    Quote from: AhmedZaid9119 on October 13, 2014, 11:01 PM
    sorry i really apologize i lost count of you sense there is so many people here asking me it was  Senga who made some sort a statement close to that


    No I didn't. Read carefully what I did say and please don't twist my words.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #145 - October 14, 2014, 10:40 AM
    Quote from: suki on October 13, 2014, 11:25 PM
    A muslim guy can demand or force sex on his wife, so i guess he would with his slave girl too..


    K good  night


    Ok i'm back

    that is called marital rape something different than normal rape which again goes back to 4:19 yo said he can rape his female slave so far NO one has successfully showed me that islam allow rape
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #146 - October 14, 2014, 10:43 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 14, 2014, 02:26 AM
    That is fucking disgusting. I actually feel slightly nauseated.


    what is disgusting the adulterer was punished and flogged for his rape crime
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #147 - October 14, 2014, 10:49 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 14, 2014, 02:50 AM
    Anyway, rather than getting into a debate which you obviously don't want, let's stick with your opening post.

    Okay, let's explore this. First we have to look into the accepted history. Many of the slaves taken were taken after their people were wiped out and also enslaved. Let's take Saffiyah for example. According to the hadiths she was an adolescent, the daughter of the chief. They were living in a fertile oasis. She had friends, a family, even a husband. If Mo had never murdered and enslaved her people she probably would have grown to prominence in her own right. Instead this life was taken from her. You hypothesise that slavery is a humanitarian act because without slavery and a master to protect them, feed them, clothe them, they would not survive, or if they did live a life of misery. If Saffiyah's people hadn't experienced the horrors they did at the hands of Mo and his men, she would never have been in that position in the first place. It was BECAUSE of Mo she was in that situation. Her people were dead or enslaved. She had no one to turn to because Mo had killed and enslaved those who would aid her. This is also very similar to the story of Rayana.

    When we look at the past 1400 years of islam, slavery is a huge part of it. Muslim armies and raiders kill and capture non muslim peoples. These actions put free men and women in a position where if they flee their masters, not only do they risk islamic punishment if found and recaptured, but because of muslims they have nowhere to go. Your hypothesis that slavery is the lesser evil ignores the fact that islam is the cause of this evil in the first place.

    If it wasn't halal to kill and enslave free people, they never would have been in this position. As to your point on what would happen if they weren't taken as slaves (after muslims put them in that position in the first place) the people could instead have been accepted as human beings and allowed to live and work along with any other person, but you aren't even allowed that unless you have the good fortune of ending up, by purest chance, with a master that would allow it. This isn't biting the hand that feeds you, this is the hand that stole your meal and said you should be grateful for whatever scraps the thief gives you.


    you are talking about saffiyah like what happened to her family was a genocide when i already showed you and debunked it for you here again

    When Safiya came to the Holy Prophet (pbuh), he said to her; ‘Among the Jews your father did not stop in his enmity towards me until Allah destroyed him.’ She said: ‘O Allah’s Messenger! Indeed Allah says in His book, ‘No one will take anyone else’s burden’. So the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said to her: ‘Make your choice, if you will chose Islam I’ll select you for myself and if you chose Judaism, I’ll set you free and send you to your people.’ She said; ‘O Allah’s Messenger indeed I longed for Islam and testified for you even before you gave me this invitation when I came to you. I have no guardian among the Jews, neither father nor brother and I prefer Islam over disbelief. Allah and His Messenger are dear to me then freedom and to return to my people.” (Ibn Saad 8/123)

    Ibn Umar narrates: In the eye of Sayyidah Safiya was a scar. Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to her, ‘What is this scar in your eye?’ She said, ‘I mentioned before my husband that I saw a moon falling into my lap in a dream so he slapped me and said; ‘Do you long for the King of Yathrib [i.e. Holy Prophet pbuh]’ She said: ‘There was none more hateful to me then Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) as he killed my father and husband. [But] the Prophet (pbuh) explained, ‘O Safiya your father instigated the Arabs against me and did so and so…’ He kept on explaining until that feeling (of hatred) vanished from me.’
    (Tabarani Kabeer, Hadith 19668. Albani classified it as Sahih in his Silsala Sahiha H. 2793)


    also read this

    http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/re-ali-sina-faithfreedom-did-muhammad.html?q=Safiya
    http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/did-muhammad-p-rape-safiyah-ra.html?q=Safiya


    ( islam is the cause of this evil in the first place.)


    THIS is so disgustingly wrong historically and empirically Slavery was a Pre-Islamic problem NOT ISLAMIC and islam provided rules to free your slave if you say islam didn't abolish slavery YOU MUST PROVE and provide a hadith or a verse that says "you can't free your slave keep him for yourself" SHOW ME THAT THEN you can prove islam didn't abolish slavery so far NONE has been successful in this the burden of proof is on you to prove that not me
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #148 - October 14, 2014, 10:54 AM
    Quote from: INcePtion on October 13, 2014, 10:46 PM
    No reply?

    Why does God allow  slavery in the first place?

    will that is a complex question and it's all depending on your diffention of slavery slaves happen to be slaves because of the social conditions that they have NOT because they were born like this
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #149 - October 14, 2014, 10:55 AM
    Quote from: Senga on October 14, 2014, 07:13 AM
    No I didn't. Read carefully what I did say and please don't twist my words.


    you said some were "if you want to be intellectually honest" means you were thinking i'm uneducated
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