I don't see why you would be able to express yourself on skype but unable to engage in a discussion here, but either way, again, no thank you. I won't be giving you my skype name. But thanks again for the offer.
And then the other half is leave the silly nonsense out of it.
Huh. That's not what I'm seeing:
This is where the language thing is a problem for us. Well, this and the rest of the thread.
For one thing, no, 4:19 does not protect women from rape. It protects them from being forced into marriage, and it says to be kind to them. Now, the problem is that the Quran's idea of kind and fairness often is, in matters of women and slaves and non-Muslims and, frankly, even Muslims when it comes to this idea of eternal damnation, so downright evil that it's mind-boggling. 24:33 protects from prostitution and yet sanctions lawful sex until you show me otherwise, which is what I've been asking for some time now.
In the case of women and slaves, at the very most, you could say that their husbands and masters haven't been given express permission to rape them. And, even then, they've been given permission to own them, to order them around, to reprimand them, to keep them prisoner in the house should they fear their disobedience and never allow them outside, and women are warned that they will be cursed until morning until they submit to their husband's sexual desires, even if she's at the oven.
Thankfully, using this kind of power and authority to persuade and provoke consent from women who, had they been free to without any possible backlash, would have likely said "No," is considered rape by those who value women's rights even remotely. Islam is not one of those systems. To try to say that Islam doesn't throw the window wide open for the coercion and rape of women and slaves is to be ignoring human nature and allowing yourself to be divorced from reality.
Considering that you have a hard time keeping track of which user is which on here, I don't quite think you're in the position to tell me what my intentions were when I responded to you.
No. I said in the very beginning that I didn't care about the azl part, and you kept talking about it. Your expectations of what I was going to say got in the way of what I was actually telling you, then, Ahmed?
For the record, here's what I've been trying to get you to address all along:
And I never saw you offer a counter to any of the other early points mentioned here, including Bogart's question of why there couldn't have been a welfare system for the poor instead of a slavery system if this was for the benefit of the slave. I'm beginning to think your fixation on the rape argument, where you refuse to provide your evidence that chastity means virginity in that verse, and yet you refuse to drop the subject, is an attempt to distract from these points that you couldn't counter.
No. I'm telling you exactly what I told you in my post. And this kind of proves my point.
For whatever reason, whether it's just the fact that you're quick to be defensive, or because you're not really reading what we write, or because you still have a ways to go in this language, you are simply not understanding what anyone here says. End of story. Whatever issue it is, I'd work it out before engaging in all these debates, Ahmed. You're just going to get frustrated when it's not working out for you.
What. Are you serious?
Asking for freedom does not mean getting freedom. You've asked me several times to talk on Skype and we ain't chatting on Skype right now. I asked my husband to take out the garbage yesterday, and it's still here. What's your point?
Lua i have already said to you this is my final reply because you are not getting my points at all you didn't refute 4:19 and 24:33 and all the hadiths i sited to the others here condemning hurting your slave keeping him as slave in the frist place(setiing them free) i showed hadiths and verses about setting free slaves and 24:33
(And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them)
so yah this gives abslute evidence to protect slaves and about chastitiy do you know what the word تحصنا means? here is an example you are building a house and you want to protect it from outside attacks you put what we call it in arabic حصن means a big tall block to protect from outside attacks same thing apply on women
chastity
ˈtʃastɪti/Submit
noun
the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChastityChastity is clearly absence from ALL types of sexual intercourse and of course in islam you can't have sex before marrige that is called rape and fornication
(For one thing, no, 4:19 does not protect women from rape. It protects them from being forced into marriage)
4:19
(Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity)
so to you rape has nothing to do with harshness?
you serious really?
?? i have already provided many verses and hadiths against rape but for the sake of argument here is a hadith:
•Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366:
“Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr: When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her. She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her. He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death. He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.”
(Isnad Classed Good By Abu Dawud – Source. Classed Sahih By Sheikh Albani – Source. Also Found In Tirmidhi, 1494 – Classed As Hasan Sahih By Tirmidhi, 1175 & Al-Mishkah, 3572 – cited here. Ibn Hajar Declared It Hasan In: In Takhrij Mishkah Al-Masabih, 3/422 – Source)
(I'm beginning to think your fixation on the rape argument, where you refuse to provide your evidence that chastity means virginity in that verse, and yet you refuse to drop the subject, is an attempt to distract from these points that you couldn't counter. )
False i showed that i used accurate dictionary because you clearly don't know what chastity means here is a hadith about chastity that i posted here many many times
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to prostitution (when they desire chastity)."
حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ حَجَّاجٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو الزُّبَيْرِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُ جَاءَتْ مُسَيْكَةُ لِبَعْضِ الأَنْصَارِ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّ سَيِّدِي يُكْرِهُنِي عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ فَنَزَلَ فِي ذَلِكَ { وَلاَ تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ } .
Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2311
In-book reference : Book 13, Hadith 137
English translation : Book 12, Hadith 2304
and chastity means protection from all things :
Abdullah reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to supplicate (in these words):
" O Allah. I beg of Thee the right guidance, safeguard against evils, chastity and freedom from want."
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ أَبِي الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ كَانَ يَقُولُ " اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ الْهُدَى وَالتُّقَى وَالْعَفَافَ وَالْغِنَى " .
Reference : Sahih Muslim 2721 a
In-book reference : Book 48, Hadith 97
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 35, Hadith 6566
you see??? now can't deny it Sunan Abi Dawud 2311 seals the deal
(What. Are you serious?)
Read what i said a slave in islam is no longer called slave if he asked for his freedom WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?
now please i have no time this is my final final reply to you
it's been fun bye
Topic: The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam