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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10020 - March 21, 2021, 03:13 PM
    Isaac Wilk de Oliveira - The Historical-Critical Study of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic Scriptures

    https://www.academia.edu/25375987/The_Historical_Critical_Study_of_Jewish_Christian_and_Islamic_Scriptures
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10021 - March 21, 2021, 03:29 PM
    Saqib Hussain - Review: Holger Zellentin (ed.), The Qur'an's Reformation of Judaism and Christianity

    https://www.academia.edu/44222463/Review_Holger_Zellentin_ed_The_Qurans_Reformation_of_Judaism_and_Christianity
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10022 - March 21, 2021, 03:34 PM
    Juan Cole - Hijazi Rock Inscriptions, Love of the Prophet, and Very Early Islam: Essays from Informed Comment

    https://www.academia.edu/43816376/Hijazi_Rock_Inscriptions_Love_of_the_Prophet_and_Very_Early_Islam_Essays_from_Informed_Comment
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10023 - March 21, 2021, 03:44 PM
    Marcin Grodzki - Günter Lüling – Islam as a non-trinitarian faith of Semitic forefathers

    https://www.academia.edu/44113079/Günter_Lüling_Islam_as_a_non_trinitarian_faith_of_Semitic_forefathers
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10024 - March 21, 2021, 03:46 PM
    Marcin Grodzki - Yehuda D. Nevo – a comprehensive skeptical theory on the genesis of Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/43323890/Yehuda_D_Nevo_a_comprehensive_skeptical_theory_on_the_genesis_of_Islam
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10025 - March 21, 2021, 03:51 PM
    Marcin Grodzki - Pantheon of Skeptics. Moshe Sharon and the Early (R)evolutions of Islam - a Brief Outline

    https://www.academia.edu/43324057/Pantheon_of_Skeptics_Moshe_Sharon_and_the_Early_R_evolutions_of_Islam_a_Brief_Outline
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10026 - March 21, 2021, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: zeca on March 21, 2021, 03:29 PM
    Saqib Hussain - Review: Holger Zellentin (ed.), The Qur'an's Reformation of Judaism and Christianity

    https://www.academia.edu/44222463/Review_Holger_Zellentin_ed_The_Qurans_Reformation_of_Judaism_and_Christianity




    Quote
    The volumeis divided into four parts:
    I ‘The Qur’an, the Bible, and the IslamicTradition’;
    II ‘The Qur’an and theBible’;
     III ‘The Qur’an and Judaism’;
    IV ‘The Qur’an and Christianity’.

    what reformation of Judaism? 
    what reformation of Christianity? 
    and in what direction??
    and what are we talking?? .. 
    what actually is the meaning of reformation??

    yes if these faiths are just stories over stories and reformation of stories in different languages FOR CHILDREN under 10... that is fine with me.. but making rules for  political, economical  family  structure to control  the society  means IT IS STUPID ....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10027 - March 21, 2021, 07:44 PM
    Thread: https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1361017519201476610
    Quote
    The pattern of my posts is to give examples of how traditions overlap and interact in late Antiquity and early Islam, which is central interest of mine. Folks project a lot of their own insecurities. Obv they are connected. How? Idk

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10028 - March 21, 2021, 11:09 PM
    Thread: https://twitter.com/NViermann/status/1316025203495858176
    Quote
    A lot of research on the 6th and 7th century insists on the idea that Christian communities of the eastern mediterranean and Levant were governed by constant apocalyptic frenzy, triggered by millenaristic computations and various political and environmental disasters.

    For sure, we do find eschatological ideas in the sources, culminating in the idea that the end of the world is imminent… but does that mean that the whole society was governed by these ideas over centuries?

    Is it adequate to explain sociopolitical processes and dynamics (like Heraclius’ restitutions crucis or even the emergence and expansion of Islam) by reference to these allegedly all consuming apocalyptic believes?

    I seriously doubt it… A society caught in apocalyptic frenzy over centuries is simply not capable of surviving. But what we see in tlate antiquity is actually the opposite: a high degree of resilience in local communities as well as on state level - despite all calamities.

    Acute apocalyptic believes are not sustainable. In order to form functioning and lasting structures, the early Christians had to overcome the idea that the end was imminent. And this applies to late antiquity as well.

    Apocalyptic frenzy did pop up, for sure, but it was usually overcome and funnelled into more sustainable ideas. We should be very careful when working with apocalyptic sources and not extrapolate too much from something that might have been a regional and ephemeral phenomenon.

    https://twitter.com/MayShaddel/status/1316085416647327744
    Quote
    Very spot on. Moreover it's highly problematic to assume if someone in Constantinople was gripped by millenarian expectancy same must have been true of Mecca. Same with assuming continuity of such expectancy from two apocalyptic compositions at the opposite ends of a long period.



    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10029 - March 25, 2021, 11:33 AM
    Quote
    Is it adequate to explain sociopolitical processes and dynamics (like Heraclius’ restitutions crucis or even the emergence and expansion of Islam) by reference to these allegedly all consuming apocalyptic believes?

    I seriously doubt it… A society caught in apocalyptic frenzy over centuries is simply not capable of surviving. But what we see in late antiquity is actually the opposite: a high degree of resilience in local communities as well as on state level - despite all calamities.

    Acute apocalyptic believes are not sustainable. In order to form functioning and lasting structures, the early Christians had to overcome the idea that the end was imminent. And this applies to late antiquity as well.

    Apocalyptic frenzy did pop up, for sure, but it was usually overcome and funneled into more sustainable ideas. We should be very careful when working with apocalyptic sources and not extrapolate too much from something that might have been a regional and ephemeral phenomenon.


    1/ The use by the authors of the Quran of this thematic is rather clear.
    2-1/ Of course it is capable of surviving and that is what one have seen. Despite the war/plague/ catastrophic climate event, it did survive.
    2-2/ The situation has nothing to see with the one of the first century
    3/War/plague/ catastrophic climate event were a  big regional phenomenon. That is why the authors of the Quran use it: the opportunity make the thief.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10030 - March 25, 2021, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: zeca on March 21, 2021, 03:29 PM
    Saqib Hussain - Review: Holger Zellentin (ed.), The Qur'an's Reformation of Judaism and Christianity

    https://www.academia.edu/44222463/Review_Holger_Zellentin_ed_The_Qurans_Reformation_of_Judaism_and_Christianity


    Reynold's paper summarizes and resume the Griffith thesis which set aside "The idea that the Qur’an shows the influence of Christian heresies". I'm agree on this.
    In contrast, I consider that Reynolds (and Griffith)  do not do the job all the way: if it is not "the influence of Christian heresies", it is what, then? Both do not even try to respond to this question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10031 - March 26, 2021, 12:19 AM
    On the subject of plague and climate change...

    Plagues, climate change, and the end of an empire: A response to Kyle Harper's The Fate of Rome (3): Disease, agency, and collapse

    https://www.academia.edu/37788579/Plagues_climate_change_and_the_end_of_an_empire_A_response_to_Kyle_Harpers_The_Fate_of_Rome_3_Disease_agency_and_collapse
    Quote
    This is the last of a three‐part review of Kyle Harper's The Fate of Rome. Here, we scrutinize Harper's treatment of the Justinianic Plague, demonstrating how he crafts a convincing narrative based on rhetorical flourishes but little evidence. We call further attention to several internal contradictions within the chapter and misinterpretations of evidence. We conclude this series of articles with a reflection on Harper's deterministic approach to environmental history. While the environment appears everywhere, agency (people: society and culture) is mostly absent. We finish by emphasizing the need to develop more nuanced causal explanations for complex historical processes and suggest that future attempts to bring together such wide‐ranging material be done within interdisciplinary research teams.


    Plagues, climate change, and the end of an empire: A response to Kyle Harper's The Fate of Rome (1): Climate

    https://www.academia.edu/37788513/Plagues_climate_change_and_the_end_of_an_empire_A_response_to_Kyle_Harpers_The_Fate_of_Rome_1_Climate
    Quote
    Kyle Harper's The Fate of Rome, written for a popular audience, uses the environment to explain the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. The book asserts that Rome fell as a result of environmental stress, in particular through a combination of pandemic disease and climate change. Although we agree that the environment can and should be integrated within traditional historical accounts, we challenge the book's claims on several issues. These include Harper's use of primary sources and secondary literature, his approach to analyzing palaeoclimate data, his interpretations of the impact of disease on the Roman state and society, and his synthesis of social, economic, and environmental history. Throughout this and the following two sections of this review, we demonstrate that several major flaws undermine the book's overarching argument, casting serious doubts on its conclusions.


    Plagues, climate change, and the end of an empire. A response to Kyle Harper's The Fate of Rome (2): Plagues and a crisis of empire

    https://www.academia.edu/37788535/Plagues_climate_change_and_the_end_of_an_empire_A_response_to_Kyle_Harpers_The_Fate_of_Rome_2_Plagues_and_a_crisis_of_empire
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10032 - March 26, 2021, 09:51 PM
    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10033 - March 28, 2021, 12:25 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 25, 2021, 11:33 AM
    War/plague/ catastrophic climate event were a  big regional phenomenon.


    This looks relevant as well:

    Podcast: https://byzantiumandfriends.podbean.com/e/46-raiders-marauders-ravagers-and-pirates-their-impact-on-byzantine-life-with-alexander-sarantis/
    Quote
    Raiders, marauders, ravagers, and pirates: their impact on Byzantine life, with Alexander Sarantis

    A conversation with Alexander Sarantis (Römisch-Germanisches Zentralmuseum Mainz) on the socio-economic impact of raiding on the lives of provincials as well as the military history of the empire and its finances. Who were these raiders? What did they want? How did provincials and the empire as a whole respond to them? A fear of marauders probably doesn't keep you up at night today, but this was a major anxiety in Byzantine life. The conversation is based on Alexander's study 'The Socio-Economic Impact of Raiding on the Eastern and Balkan Borderlands of the Eastern Roman Empire, 502-602,' Millennium 17 (2020) 203-264.


    Abstract of the article: https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/mill-2020-0008/pdf
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10034 - March 28, 2021, 11:57 AM
    General topic of "constant apocalyptic frenzy, triggered by millenaristic computations and various political and environmental disaster " in the 5th,6th c. is the foundation of the authors for the construction of their agenda in the Quranic corpus. This foundation could not have been as important in the 2nd,3rd,4th, 5th c. and would not have been used.
    The opportunity make the thief.
    How works this topic, why it is constantly used?  It is related to the very question of "what" is the Quran. Gallez has find the response  and I think he's right on this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10035 - March 28, 2021, 07:12 PM
    Altara,

    Can you summarize Gallez' response please?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10036 - March 28, 2021, 10:02 PM
    1/That it is a project towards (only) Christians Arabs.
    2/Lead by the Judeo-Nazareans, etc.

    I only kept the first point here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10037 - March 29, 2021, 10:32 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 28, 2021, 10:02 PM
    1/That it is a project towards (only) Christians Arabs.
    2/Lead by the Judeo-Nazareans, etc.

    I only kept the first point here.

     "Christians Arabs"    does not sound right .,  should I read that as
     
    1).   Christians  &  Arabs. ??

    2).  Christian Arabs. ??

    3).. Arab Christians ??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10038 - March 29, 2021, 10:36 AM
    Arabs who are Christianized (since they have no Bible in Arabic).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10039 - March 29, 2021, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 29, 2021, 10:36 AM
    1). Arabs who are Christianized

    2). (since they have no Bible in Arabic).


    Arabs who are Christianized .,  lots of questions on that Arabised Christians  or Christianized Arabs ..... I wonder during that time .............say 2nd century to end of the 7th century e..g year 699......   Were there any OT following  Arabs and NT following Arabs    around the area  say... 5 to -600 miles of Jerusalem ?

    well on that No Bible in Arabic.,  I question that assumption.,

    True they many not had all New testament books in Arabic language but Would it be wrong  to consider or examine carefully.,   that those early Quran manuscripts before they became a book were nothing but proto Arabic bible...??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10040 - March 29, 2021, 04:49 PM
    Yeez,

    Quran=proto-Arabic Bible

    There is no reason why the translation in Arabic would be so "sloppy". I think the differences occurring in the Quran are not by mistake or by inaccuracies They seem to be deliberate to score different theological points.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10041 - March 29, 2021, 07:39 PM
    More of a bible commentary?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10042 - March 29, 2021, 10:24 PM
    Quote
    lots of questions on that Arabised Christians  or Christianized Arabs ..... I wonder during that time .............say 2nd century to end of the 7th century e..g year 699......   Were there any OT following  Arabs and NT following Arabs    around the area  say... 5 to -600 miles of Jerusalem ?


    Yes, all of this is documented (Academia is your friend).  About the OT one have the attestation of the Christian Roman Palestinian Sozomen (d. 450) who recount that Jews teach Arabs to the Jewish Law.
    About the NT, Arabs of Palestine and Syria were taught in Arabic by Jacobites (monophysites) Christians  without Arabic Bible.

    Quote
    that those early Quran manuscripts before they became a book were nothing but proto Arabic bible...??


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10043 - March 30, 2021, 07:14 AM
    Quran = Bible commentary

    I dont think that works. The Quran presents a deliberate different theology from Judaism and Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10044 - March 30, 2021, 11:01 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on March 29, 2021, 04:49 PM
    Yeez,

    Quran=proto-Arabic Bible

    There is no reason why the translation in Arabic would be so "sloppy". I think the differences occurring in the Quran are not by mistake or by inaccuracies They seem to be deliberate to score different theological points.

    Quote from: zeca on March 29, 2021, 07:39 PM
    More of a bible commentary?

    Quote from: mundi on March 30, 2021, 07:14 AM
    Quran = Bible commentary

    I dont think that works. The Quran presents a deliberate different theology from Judaism and Christianity.



    you have a point there dear mundi., In this post to Altara
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 29, 2021, 01:12 PM
    ....................................

    well on that No Bible in Arabic.,  I question that assumption.,

    True they many not had all New testament books in Arabic language but Would it be wrong  to consider or examine carefully.,   that those early Quran manuscripts before they became a book were nothing but proto Arabic bible...??

     I was not very clear in that post  w.r.t "THEOLOGICAL VIEWS OF FAITHS  ..SO-CALLED ABRAHAMIC FAITHS/RELIGIONS

    No time right now to respond  ..we will get back to ,,,,to your very important point of
    Quote
    ....The Quran presents a deliberate different theology from Judaism and Christianity......

    but tell me your understanding of Quran theology that differs from Christianity and Judaism  ....

    You can say.. Christianity .....yes..   the only statement there is

    Christ is NOT son of God....   ......   was that theological view  not there in some Christen sects before Quran??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10045 - March 30, 2021, 11:16 AM
    Yeez,

    Another important point that must have been very conspicuous at the time is setting Ismael as the legitimate heir of Abraham instead of Isaac.
    That cannot be just a sloppy translation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10046 - March 30, 2021, 11:43 AM
    It is the Jews who have designated the Arabs to be the son of Ismael (therefore Abraham like them) (Academia is your friend) Christians have followed this assertion ('Ismaelites') as well but mixing the appellation with 'Saracens" and "Hagarene".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10047 - March 30, 2021, 02:30 PM
    Altara,

    It might be the Jews who first got this idea of the connection of Ishmael and the Arabs, but by the 6th C, that idea was all over the place.
    But the replacement of Isaac by Ismael (and thus the Arabs as chosen people) first appeared in the Quran, no? At least it is the first extant source that we have with this idea.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10048 - March 30, 2021, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 30, 2021, 11:16 AM
    Yeez,

    Another important point that must have been very conspicuous at the time is setting Ismael as the legitimate heir of Abraham instead of Isaac.
    That cannot be just a sloppy translation.

    I FULLY AGREE WITH THAT POINT., QURAN IS NOT A PROPER TRANSLATION OF BIBLE BOOKS..  .. but you have not answered the question and that is
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 30, 2021, 11:01 AM
      ....Christ is NOT son of God....   ......   was that theological view  not there in some Christen sects before Quran??..

    without answering that you added something else... which is   .. setting Ismael as the legitimate heir of Abraham instead of Isaac........

    what Quranic verses gives you that information??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10049 - March 30, 2021, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 30, 2021, 03:24 PM
    I FULLY AGREE WITH THAT POINT., QURAN IS NOT A PROPER TRANSLATION OF BIBLE BOOKS..  .. but you have not answered the ............... setting Ismael as the legitimate heir of Abraham instead of Isaac........

    what Quranic verses gives you that information??


    well on those words let me give this pub...ISHMAEL, THE QUR’ĀN, AND THE BIBLE  that may help those who are interested in these bible stories that are in Quran
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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