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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #180 - March 19, 2015, 10:08 PM

    Alright, you got my curiosity up and I found that Islamic Awareness addresses this in great detail, also in strangely non-polemical fashion for them.  Very interesting.

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBalex.html

    It turns out that scholars have long argued that the episode reflects an element of "Alexander Legend," in the Syriac context, including the "Christian Legend Concerning Alexander."

    "The origin of the fish episode, according to Friedländer, is a passage from the sermon on Alexander by Jacob of Serugh dated to early part of the sixth century; the dating is based on Jacob of Serugh's death in 521 CE.[12] Lines 170-197 describe how an old man tells Alexander to command his cook to take the salted fish and wash it at every spring of water he finds. When the fish comes to life, the old man explains, the cook will have found the water of life. The sermon then continues by mentioning how the cook was washing the fish in the spring when it comes to life and swims away. The cook, fearing Alexander may want the fish back, jumps into the water to retrieve the fish and gains immortality himself."

    Somewhat strangely, the article does not mention the fact that the same miracle of resurrecting a dried fish is attributed to *Jesus himself* in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, itself known to be a source of Qur'anic stories.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

    Also there was a Syriac version which has evidently directly influenced the Qur'an:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Infancy_Gospel

    So this origin sounds very plausible to me.  I suspect this connection of the later Alexander and Qur'anic versions with the earlier Infancy Gospels is addressed in the articles that the IA webpage cites.  Probably this legend of fish resurrection became conflated with Alexander, who becomes a sort of proto-Jesus eschatological figure in Syriac tradition (which is why his story is told in detail immediately afterwards).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #181 - March 19, 2015, 10:14 PM

    Btw, here's a direct link to an English translation of the Syriac Infancy Gospel.  Any of this sound familiar?

    http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/infancy1.htm

    36. Now, when the Lord Jesus had completed seven years from His birth, on a certain day He was occupied with boys of His own age. For they were playing among clay, from which they were making images of asses, oxen, birds, and other animals; and each one boasting of his skill, was praising his own work. Then the Lord Jesus said to the boys: The images that I have made I will order to walk. The boys asked Him whether then he were the son of the Creator; and the Lord Jesus bade them walk. And they immediately began to leap; and then, when He had given them leave, they again stood still. And He had made figures of birds and sparrows, which flew when He told them to fly, and stood still when He told them to stand, and ate and drank when He handed them food and drink. After the boys had gone away and told this to their parents, their fathers said to them: My sons, take care not to keep company with him again, for he is a wizard: flee from him, therefore, and avoid him, and do not play with him again after this.

    46. Again, on another day, the Lord Jesus was with the boys at a stream of water, and they had again made little fish-ponds. And the Lord Jesus had made twelve sparrows, and had arranged them round His fish-pond, three on each side. And it was the Sabbath-day. Wherefore a Jew, the son of Hanan, coming up, and seeing them thus engaged, said in anger and great indignation: Do you make figures of clay on the Sabbath-day? And he ran quickly, and destroyed their fish-ponds. But when the Lord Jesus clapped His hands over the sparrows which He had made, they flew away chirping. Then the son of Hanan came up to the fish-pond of Jesus also, and kicked it with his shoes, and the water of it vanished away. And the Lord Jesus said to him: As that water has vanished away, so thy life shall likewise vanish away. And immediately that boy dried up.

    47. At another time, when the Lord Jesus was returning home with Joseph in the evening. He met a boy, who ran up against Him with so much force that He fell. And the Lord Jesus said to him: As thou hast thrown me down, so thou shall fall and not rise again. And the same hour the boy fell down, and expired.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #182 - March 19, 2015, 10:30 PM

    ...describe how an old man tells Alexander to command his cook to take the salted fish and wash it at every spring of water he finds. When the fish comes to life, the old man explains, the cook will have found the water of life. The sermon then continues by mentioning how the cook was washing the fish in the spring when it comes to life and swims away. The cook, fearing Alexander may want the fish back, jumps into the water to retrieve the fish and gains immortality himself...


    "Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel." But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!" Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come). So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence." (Qur'an 18:60-65)

    Also see from TDR's link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr#Comparative_mythology

    There are several versions of the Alexander romance in which al-Khiḍr figures as a servant of Alexander the Great. in one version, al-Khiḍr and Alexander — identified with Dhul-Qarnayn — cross the Land of Darkness to find the Water of Life. Dhul-Qarnayn gets lost looking for the spring but al-Khiḍr finds it and gains eternal life. In the Iskandarnamah by an anonymous author, al-Khiḍr is asked by Dhul-Qarnayn to lead him and his armies to the Water of Life.[106] Al-Khiḍr agrees, and eventually stumbles upon the Water of Life on his own.[107]

    Some scholars suggest that al-Khiḍr is also represented in the Arthurian tale Sir Gawain and the Green Knight as the Green Knight.[108] In the story, the Green Knight tempts the faith of Sir Gawain three times. The character of al-Khiḍr may have come into European literature through the mixing of cultures during the Crusades.[109] It is also possible that the story derives from an Irish myth which predates the Crusades in which Cú Chulainn and two other heroes compete for the curadmír, the select portion given to champions, at feasts; ultimately, Cú Chulainn is the only one willing to let a giant — actually a king who has magically disguised himself — cut off his head, as per their agreement.

    The story is also similar to one told by Rabbi Nissim ben Jacob in the eleventh century of a journey made by Elijah and Rabbi Joshua ben Levi.[110][111] The first house where they stay the night belongs to a pious old couple who give the prophet and the rabbi the best of their food and beds. However, the couple's cow dies in the night. Elijah later explains that the Angel of Death came and he persuaded the angel to take the cow instead of the wife. The next house, as in the al-Khiḍr story, is that of a rich miser, and Elijah repairs his wall so that he will not, in having it repaired, find the treasure hidden under it.

    A third potential parallel to the legend surrounding al-Khiḍr is the Epic of Gilgamesh.[112] The episode in question takes place after the death of king Gilgamesh's closest friend Enkidu. Gilgamesh goes on a journey to find his ancestor Utnapishtim, a wise figure who was granted immortal life and who lives at the mouth of two rivers.[112] Ultimately, although Gilgamesh finds Utnapishtim, he is not able to attain immortality. Although the parallel is not exact, the story shares several major themes with both Surah 18 in the Quran and the Alexander romance, namely, the presence of a wise figure in all three stories, and the quest and ultimate failure to attain immortality in the epic of Gilgamesh and the Alexander romance.[113]


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #183 - March 19, 2015, 11:12 PM

    Yeah given the established connection between Gilgamesh and the Alexandrian Legend, I think that part you highlighted is very compelling Hassan.  It seems to likely be a mashup of Gilgamesh/Alexandrian Legend/Infancy Gospels.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #184 - March 20, 2015, 06:35 AM

    Hi - just de-lurking from this thread to let you know how much I'm enjoying it.

    I met Tom Holland the other day (while at a talk given by Ian David Morris) and we managed to have a brief chat about his book, although I wish I was as well-read about the background as some of the posters here. I'm hoping to chat to him again, so if you have any questions you'd like me to put to him, let me know.

    What really puzzles me about Early Islamic history is the calendar change. I don't have a real sense for how common calendar changes were, but I would imagine them to be something truly significant. The fact that we have papyrii which self-date to 20 AH suggests to me that the calendar change did actually happen at or around the time of the hijra. What might be so momentous to actually warrant a calendar change?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #185 - March 20, 2015, 06:39 AM

    Quote
    Some scholars suggest that al-Khiḍr is also represented in the Arthurian tale Sir Gawain and the Green Knight as the Green Knight.[108] In the story, the Green Knight tempts the faith of Sir Gawain three times. The character of al-Khiḍr may have come into European literature through the mixing of cultures during the Crusades.[109] It is also possible that the story derives from an Irish myth which predates the Crusades in which Cú Chulainn and two other heroes compete for the curadmír, the select portion given to champions, at feasts; ultimately, Cú Chulainn is the only one willing to let a giant — actually a king who has magically disguised himself — cut off his head, as per their agreement.


    I think it is Pliny who mentions Madiera.  Scandinavian mice bones have been found there.  They could only have got there on Viking longboats.

    Barbary pirates were also there.

    Bit of drinking and whoring and telling of tales and Irish tales end up in the quran.

    Maybe historians should follow mice dna and stories?

    A proposed crusade link is late - I would argue these relationships are 5000 years and more old.

    Quote
    How did they build boats in the Bronze Age? That is a question that academics from the University of Exeter hope to find out in the coming months in a new installation and exhibition at National Maritime Museum Cornwall. In a project that is set to last 5 or more months, professional boatbuilder Brian Cumby and a team of volunteers are re-creating a large replica Bronze Age stitched boat using traditional tools and materials. This video shows the progress for the first month and we shall continue the series monthly.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22chM3wYrk0

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #186 - March 20, 2015, 06:42 AM

    The fall of Jerusalem thought to be the beginning of the end times?  Revelation has an idea of a thousand year reign and then the last judgement.

    Quote
    When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.…


    Rev 20 7

    http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-7.htm

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #187 - March 20, 2015, 06:46 AM

    Actually could the calendar be a xian invention, because the arab armies were thought to be as the sands of the sea shore?  A monk thought he ought to start counting the end times?

    They had also been hit by plague.  What were the four horsemen again?

    Quote
    the four riders are seen as symbolizing Conquest,[1] War,[2] Famine,[3] and Death,


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #188 - March 20, 2015, 07:53 AM

    What really puzzles me about Early Islamic history is the calendar change. I don't have a real sense for how common calendar changes were, but I would imagine them to be something truly significant. The fact that we have papyrii which self-date to 20 AH suggests to me that the calendar change did actually happen at or around the time of the hijra. What might be so momentous to actually warrant a calendar change?

    622 = first year of the arabs = turning point in byzantine-sassanid wars

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #189 - March 20, 2015, 07:58 AM

    Quote
    622 = first year of the arabs = turning point in byzantine-sassanid wars


    Can you elaborate please? Was there a specific event in 622 that happened between the Byzantines and Sassanids? Also, why would this lead to Arabs changing their calendar and not anyone else?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #190 - March 20, 2015, 08:07 AM

    Yeah sorry for the vagueness. I intended to edit my post after seeing how vague it was after i posted it. But you're replying i guess warrants me to write a new post  Smiley

    Quote
    The year 622-which Muslims mark as the year Mohammed and his followers made the Hijira , a fateful journey from Mecca to Medina-was not originally connected with Mohammed at all. Before there is any record of Muslims dating time from the Hijra, Arabic Christians dated the beginning of the Arabic era to 622, when they gained independence from Persias Sassanian empire. 

    http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2012/12/the-christian-origins-of-islam


    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #191 - March 20, 2015, 08:47 AM

    none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it


    I love that excuse by the way  Cheesy

    I'm pretty sure I've used that one when I was a little boy - in order to avoid the cane from my dad:

    "Yeah, sorry <insert scapegoat of choice> made me do it!"  lol grin12
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #192 - March 20, 2015, 08:54 AM

    Hi - just de-lurking from this thread to let you know how much I'm enjoying it.

    I met Tom Holland the other day (while at a talk given by Ian David Morris) and we managed to have a brief chat about his book, although I wish I was as well-read about the background as some of the posters here. I'm hoping to chat to him again, so if you have any questions you'd like me to put to him, let me know.

    What really puzzles me about Early Islamic history is the calendar change. I don't have a real sense for how common calendar changes were, but I would imagine them to be something truly significant. The fact that we have papyrii which self-date to 20 AH suggests to me that the calendar change did actually happen at or around the time of the hijra. What might be so momentous to actually warrant a calendar change?


    Hi and welcome Smiley

    I think Zaotar mentioned it might actually not be about Muhammad's move to Medina but the victory of the Byzantines over the Persians and it was the Syriac/Arab Christians who marked it by starting their calendar from there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #193 - March 20, 2015, 09:41 AM

    A victory isn't enough - they were always fighting!  Beginning of the end of the world though!

    And why did the victors not change their calendar, or were they happy with the Julian one?

    Changing calendars is big. 

    http://openjournals.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/ART/article/viewFile/5540/6208

    The scandal of the dating of easter

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #194 - March 20, 2015, 06:18 PM

    Hi and welcome Smiley

    I think Zaotar mentioned it might actually not be about Muhammad's move to Medina but the victory of the Byzantines over the Persians and it was the Syriac/Arab Christians who marked it by starting their calendar from there.


    Zeca already linked a pretty good article by Kerr earlier in this thread, which sets forth a pretty good explanation of the hypothesis, along with a fairly startling analysis of the term "ansar."

    https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    Having just re-read that article, I am fascinated by this ansar subject ... would love to see a more detailed analysis than Kerr gives.  It would seem to fit well with the idea that what we have is an expansion of Arab (in the sense of Arabic-speaking) political authority into the liberated Sassanian regions, along with the Ansar, who would be cooperating Christians opposed to Byzantine authority and happy to collaborate with Arabs.

    If you think about it, this would imply a powerful motor for the sort of ecumenical theology seen in the earliest Qur'anic layers, adapting Syriac Christianity and harmonizing it with indeterminate Arab monotheism.  Reflecting the political situation on the ground in Palestine/Syria.  An Arab and Christian population, liberated by Byzantines, full of apocalyptic expectation, but increasingly exerting its own political leadership in opposition to the Byzantines AND Sassanians.  Also, increasingly anti-Jewish as its power increases (Jews being seen as pro-Sassanian and anti-Christian).  When would this situation exist?  From 622 onwards for a few decades, leading up to the Umayyads, although its base texts and beliefs would largely be provincial Syriac Christian in an Arabic-speaking context, modified to meet the new exigencies.

    Unlike Kerr, I'm still on the side that thinks of the Qur'anic Christianity as a *Judaizing* Christianity, that is a Christianity which is being stripped down and harmonized to build ecumenical consensus, rather than genuinely ancient Semitic Christianity.  So I see the parallels between Qur'anic Christianity and Jewish Christianity more as anachronism rejecting innovation in favor of accommodating the new political/theological situation, rather than a relic population of ancient Jewish Christian adherents or some-such.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #195 - March 20, 2015, 08:31 PM

    Excellent stuff, thank you Zaotar.

    I've been conversing with Ian Morris on Twitter about this, as a result. He's pretty reticent about Kerr - says he ignores all internal Arabic evidence. Here's the twitter conversation so far, if you're interested https://twitter.com/Razmatronix/status/579015173731704832 (I'm Razmatron IX)

    He suggested I read https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_First_Century_Concept_of_Higra.pdf which I'm going through atm..
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #196 - March 20, 2015, 09:34 PM

    Good to see some interaction between this thread and the academics. By coincidence I just came across this article.

    Ian David Morris - Islam and the Dissolution of Late Antiquity

    http://www.nea.uerj.br/nearco/arquivos/numero11/10.pdf
    Quote
    The survival of late-antique civilisational traits under Islam is discussed with reference to the dialectic between Muslim and Arab identity and the late-antique context; the persistence of economic trends; the changing relationship between Arab and non-Arab élites; the ascent and decline of the Caliph and the united empire; and the rebirth of classical philosophy. The article concludes that imperial Islamicate civilisation was indeed late-antique, but that its spiritual and political fragmentation, c.700-950, produced a decidedly medieval commonwealth of Islamicate dynasties.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #197 - March 20, 2015, 09:51 PM

    Discussion about an Islamic renaissance or reformation might have jumped a few steps!  Is Islam really Medieval or maybe it is the earlier non imperial bit - tyrannies?  

    So are several stages of change needed?

    Magna Carta and the peasant's revolt are medieval!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #198 - March 20, 2015, 09:56 PM

    I would agree to be careful with Kerr's arguments ... that's why I say above I'd like to see a lot more thorough analysis of the ansar issue.  On the other hand, what is called "internal Arabic evidence" usually tends to be late and tendentious.  As that Crone article notes, the Qur'an never actually uses the word "higra."  Instead it just talks about emigrants; higra is an extrapolation from that.  Isn't that basically mind-boggling if this is the alleged foundation of the Arabic calendar?  If the higra was so colossally central that the Arabic calendar even began with it, wouldn't it at least bear a mention in the Qur'an?  And why doesn't it appear in the earliest dated inscriptions that refer to the Arabic year system?

    Admittedly this goes both ways, for the revisionists as well as the traditionalists.  Why does the Qur'an NOT mention (in any meaningful direct sense) the event which was so central that Arab years were dated from it (at least by Mu'awiya's time)?  Apparently constantly mentioning emigrants made sense in the Qur'an, but never the higra?  WTF?  It's not until the second-to-last surah of the Qur'an (Q 9), in Noldeke's chronology, that you even get oblique references to the higra in the traditional reading.  Why?  Supposedly Mohammed spent 10 years in Medina.  So why no Qur'anic higra?  Or, if you are a revisionist, why does the Qur'an not mention the secular version of the higra?

    Well, no good answers here, other than that I suspect there was a *sharp disjunction* between the theology of the Qur'an and the actual historical circumstances of the rise of Arabic power in 622.  My guess:  The Qur'an in its present form intentionally deletes and obscures the uncomfortably Northern, Syriac, Byzantine elements of that rise to power, which conflicted with its long evolution into a text about an Arabian prophet. The higra being one such element.  But if that's right, then we will have a hard time finding the Qur'an accurately describing a historical event which is anti-Qur'anic.  The few positive Qur'anic references to the Byzantines and Syriac apocalypticism are as close as we can get to that.  But they are relics that survived the compilation process.

    So why no traditional Islamic higra either?  Well, that theological maneuver to rebaptize the "Year of the Arabs" in light of an Arabian prophet's Hijazi biography hadn't been invented yet by the time the Qur'an largely fossilized (which I take to be relatively early, the 650s or so, similar to the traditional chronology even).

    I don't think Kerr and Crone really differ that much on the higra either.  Crone is really hot to point out that higra was originally basically expansionist jihad, with religious roots.  I think her points are equally compatible with Kerr's vision of an expansionist Arabic political community, however, in which the concept of "higra" became valorized and theologized over time.  Not sure I see much contradiction.  I'd note that Kerr's "higra" allows for 622 to be the year a bit better than Crone's discussion, which seems to be more premised on the Islamic conquests.  By a more Kerr-type argument, the year 622 was the year the Arabs seized political power by throwing off their imperial yokes, and over the ensuing decades that meant the Arabic-speaking emigrants flooded into the region and were welcome as part of the new community ... there was nobody to stop them, no Byzantine garrisons or Sassanian troops.  Only slowly did this emigration become a straight-up war against the Byzantines and Sassanians, who sought (too late) to reverse the process.  And the later Qur'anic layers may reflect this turn towards inciting the emigrants into religious jihad, reconceptualizing it as a holy duty.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #199 - March 20, 2015, 10:15 PM

    IDM is a good egg - v. in touch with ex-muslim issues. He's still quite young but I've been impressed by the way he comports himself. Once he has a bit more research under his belt I can see him making a name for himself.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #200 - March 20, 2015, 10:28 PM

    Quote
    A common purely lunar calendar is the Islamic calendar or Hijri Qamari calendar. A feature of the Islamic calendar is that a year is always 12 months, so the months are not linked with the seasons and drift each solar year by 11 to 12 days. It comes back to the position it had in relation to the solar year approximately every 33 Islamic years. It is used mainly for religious purposes, but in Saudi Arabia it is the official calendar. Other lunar calendars often include extra months added occasionally to synchronize it with the solar calenda


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_calendar

    Is that correct that actually the Islamic calendar has primarily been used for religious purposes and most of the time people have used useful ones?

    If so, maybe the Islamic calendar was introduced for theological reasons, and does not actually date back to anything real, but an invented time in an invented person's life?

    That scrap of a bill mentioned by Holland might have been referencing something else?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #201 - March 20, 2015, 10:50 PM

    There are lots of signs that the Islamic calendar is a late theological imposition.  Even in the traditional view, the existing Arabian calendar was outlawed by Mohammed via Q 9:30 (second to last of the surahs).  Until then, the superior lunisolar calendar (Babylonian) seems to have been used in Arabia.  Along with the Babylonian zodiac.

    https://www.academia.edu/9003930/Al-Jallad._2014._An_ancient_Arabian_zodiac._The_constellations_in_the_Safaitic_inscriptions_Part_I_Addendum_

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

    Why?  Well the obvious explanation is that somebody didn't like the more sophisticated older calendar, and wanted to sub in a more theologically useful new approach.  Why?  Don't really know.  Presumably something about the old calendar bothered people, and I would bet that was around the time that 622 started being used as the start year (new calendar system, new start year).  Again, just a suggestion, this was a way of aggressively distancing the Arab polity (at the end of the Qur'anic composition process) from its former Byzantine/Jewish friends.  If so, then it seems Surah 9 was probably not written very long after 640 CE or so, since we have examples of the year of the Arab dating from around that time (17-20 AH).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #202 - March 21, 2015, 06:48 AM

    Well this is all jolly interesting. I'd never come across this idea of the calendar coming out of this revolution in Arab identity, throwing off the shackles of Byzantine and Sassanian stewardship. It does sound plausible to me, but I'd need to think about it further.

    One thing I need to think about is, why lie about it afterwards then? If the new calendar was a true marked shift in the power dynamics of the region, wouldn't that be more of a source for Arab pride and cohesion then M's legendary trip from Mecca to Medina? Why not just put M at the centre of the revolution?

    Not saying its insurmountable, but will require some chin scratching.

    Quote
    Even in the traditional view, the existing Arabian calendar was outlawed by Mohammed via Q 9:30 (second to last of the surahs).


    I looked up 9:30 and it didn't have much to say about calendars. Did you mean 9.36?

    Quote
    9:36 Sahih International
    Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him].

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #203 - March 21, 2015, 01:31 PM

    Why would a people who have the equivalent to electronic ignition in their cars - the Julian calendar - go back to a clanky outside the car crankshaft?

    Were Muslims anti technology?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #204 - March 21, 2015, 02:18 PM

    Why would a people who have the equivalent to electronic ignition in their cars - the Julian calendar - go back to a clanky outside the car crankshaft?

    Were Muslims anti technology?

    No..No.noooo... neither Muslims were  anti-technology nor Muslims are anti-technology...

     In olden times they didn't realize the importance of sun and that is true to various  Calenders/Time stamping from different cultures/religions..

    Now this stubborn mule disease of anti-science and anti-technology of  20th century and 21st century  comes from brainless nut cases of Islam and some times time from other faith heads.  Muslim get blamed because IDIOTS OF ISLAM make more noise and they are more in number in comparisons to   other faiths heads from other faiths..

    but moi.. whenever and wherever you get the chance Mock such  rascals and move on...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #205 - March 21, 2015, 03:09 PM

    Quote
    The Julian calendar, introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 BC (708 AUC), was a reform of the Roman calendar.[1] It took effect in 45 BC (709 AUC), shortly after the Roman conquest of Egypt. It was the predominant calendar in the Roman world, most of Europe, and in European settlements in the Americas and elsewhere, until it was refined and superseded by the Gregorian calendar. The difference in the average length of the year between Julian (365.25 days) and Gregorian (365.2425 days) is 0.002%.

    The Julian calendar has a regular year of 365 days divided into 12 months, as listed in Table of months. A leap day is added to February every four years. The Julian year is, therefore, on average 365.25 days long. It was intended to approximate the tropical (solar) year. Although Greek astronomers had known, at least since Hipparchus, a century before the Julian reform, that the tropical year was a few minutes shorter than 365.25 days, the calendar did not compensate for this difference. As a result, the calendar year gained about three days every four centuries compared to observed equinox times and the seasons. This discrepancy was corrected by the Gregorian reform of 1582.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

    A six hundred year old calendar that is about by a few days out per thousand years is replaced by one that is out by twelve days a year?  A thousand times worse?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #206 - March 21, 2015, 04:00 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

    A six hundred year old calendar that is about by a few days out per thousand years is replaced by one that is out by twelve days a year?  A thousand times worse?

     Hello moi  let us not get confused Islamic calender  with a lunar calendar .,  both are different beasts.. off course there is overlap..and copy pasting.. but they are different..

    again... List_of_calendars


    Quote


    and Islamic calender is very little to do with Quran and Quaranic Muhammad..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #207 - March 21, 2015, 04:15 PM

    I looked up 9:30 and it didn't have much to say about calendars. Did you mean 9.36?


    You are exactly right, I meant 9:36.  Typo.

    I don't think Muslims were anti-technology, but the ostentatious adoption of a conflicting calendar *which was different and less accurate than the old Arab lunisolar calendar* must surely have been some sort of political statement about the Arab community vis-a-vis the older and more literate communities.  What statement exactly, besides the fact of difference, would require some serious work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #208 - March 21, 2015, 04:45 PM

    You are exactly right, I meant 9:36.  Typo.......

    let us put that verse that says  twelve months ....

    Quote
      009.036

    YUSUFALI: The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

    PICKTHAL: Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all of the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

    SHAKIR: Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).


    again whole Quran has simple message ....

     copy paste some words from  some stories that were floating in and around Arabian peninsula and add words like  

    "hell for unbelievers, infidels idolaters and to those who question leaders of Islam of that time, basics of Islam   ..And ..and.  .. heaven, heavenly houris, milk/honey filed swimming pools   for those who die for Islam/Islamic leadership and to those who support Islamic leadership with their life/money ..preaching... whatever..."  

     Quarn has nothing new in it that was not there before the birth of alleged unknown Muhammad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #209 - March 21, 2015, 06:12 PM

    Yeezevee..please WRITE a book on the following:

    BABOONS OF ISLAM
    HEROES OF ISLAM
    HISTORY OF SAND LANDS
    HISTORY OF LAND OF PURE
    AMRIKA
    SECRET HISTORY OF JUICE

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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