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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #240 - April 09, 2015, 03:27 AM

    I posted that article back in October of last year, and periodically update the thread when he comes out with new stuff.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27494.0

    Nobody is a bigger groupie of Jallad than me.  That guy is a flat-out genius in my book.  I'm sure he'd be embarrassed by my level of fandom.

    Big hits in that article include his discussion of the orthography, morphology, and phonetics of Qur'anic Arabic in contrast to Classical Arabic.  Supposedly there will be 3 (!) further parts to the series, this being just the first.  Can't wait.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #241 - April 10, 2015, 05:01 PM



    Asa Eger - The Islamic-Byzantine Frontier

    http://www.ibtauris.com/Books/Humanities/History/Regional%20%20national%20history/Asian%20history/Middle%20Eastern%20history/The%20IslamicByzantine%20Frontier%20Interaction%20and%20Exchange%20Between%20the%20Christian%20and%20Early%20Muslim%20Lands.aspx?menuitem=%7B36092275-B16D-4849-8F67-773154FC0271%7D
    Quote
    The retreat of the Byzantine army from Syria in around 650 CE, in advance of the approaching Arab armies, is one that has resounded emphatically in the works of both Islamic and Christian writers, and created an enduring motif: that of the Islamic-Byzantine frontier. For centuries, Byzantine and Islamic scholars have evocatively sketched a contested border: the annual raids between the two, the line of fortified fortresses defending Islamic lands, the no-man's land in between and the birth of jihad. In their early representations of a Muslim-Christian encounter, accounts of the Islamic-Byzantine frontier are charged with significance for a future 'clash of civilizations' that often envisions a polarised world. A. Asa Eger examines the two aspects of this frontier: its physical and ideological ones. By highlighting the archaeological study of the real and material frontier, as well as acknowledging its ideological military and religious implications, he offers a more complex vision of this dividing line than has been traditionally disseminated.

    With analysis grounded in archaeological evidence as well the relevant historical texts, Eger brings together a nuanced exploration of this vital element of medieval history. In this way, Eger's volume contributes to a more complex vision of the frontier than traditional historical views by bringing to the fore the layers of a real ecological frontier of settlement and interaction. For Eger, exposing the settlements and communities of the frontier constitutes a crucial gesture for understanding the interaction of two civilizations in a contested yet connected world. This work is thus vital for students of not only the medieval period and Byzantine and Islamic studies, but also for readers attempting to understand the ways in which frontiers and borders shape the construction of identity while functioning outside the traditionally understood state.


    Here's a link for full text of the original dissertation version:

    https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/eger_dissertation.pdf
    Quote
    Abstract

    The Islamic-Byzantine frontier (al-thughūr) traditionally has been described either as a “no-man’s land” or as a closed fortified border dominated by a line of castles. Such perceptions convey a sense of propaganda and hyperbole, as the frontier was neither an empty wilderness nor a delineated boundary. These views have become particularly intransigent in scholarship due to a disciplinary frontier that separates history from archaeology which hinders the use of archaeological evidence in historical inquiry. Through an interdisciplinary approach that combines landscape archaeology with frontier theory, the dissertation re-examines the frontier by looking at its environment and settlement. More specifically, the study examines how anthropogenic manipulations affected the environment and how subsequent environmental change led to settlement adaptation. These processes help to dictate the nature of interaction of groups across the frontier. Using data from three surveys and two excavations undertaken by the author in the Amuq Valley, Kahramanmaraş Valley, and the Plain of Issos in Turkey, the study builds a diachronic narrative of environment, settlement, and interaction in the Early Islamic period (seventh-tenth centuries). Furthermore, the narrative analyzes these processes with earlier and later evidence from the Byzantine and Middle Islamic periods, respectively.

    The narrative produced three layers of frontier interaction: external, internal, and ideological. External interaction was an annual competition for grazing lands and other resources by pastoralist tribes that shared the pasture rich marshland plains in the winter and migrated seasonally to the Byzantine controlled uplands in the summer. Internal interaction occurred between the central state and the desire to control frontier societies, often the home of local powers and political outlaws in inaccessible marshlands or mountains. Transhumance interaction and core-periphery relations are not unique to the Islamic-Byzantine frontier or frontiers in general but part of upland- lowland environmental frontiers that occur throughout history. However, a third layer, the political-religious ideology of holy war (jihād) to justify the back and forth annual raids between Muslims and Christians was imposed from central lands to internally control the mixed frontier societies; galvanizing them towards an external threat. This ideological interaction gives the Islamic-Byzantine frontier a historical poignancy.

    The dissertation contributes to the fields of Islamic archaeology and Islamic history in three ways. The ambiguous Byzantine-Islamic transition is partially untangled through close study of its ceramics and settlement patterns. The focus on rural and peripheral settlements expands on the entrenched assumption of Islam as an urban religion emanating from a central core. Finally, the dissertation attempts to bridge the disciplinary frontier between archaeology and history by using landscape archaeology to view the frontier not solely through historical events but in layered frameworks that better accommodate the various perceptions and processes that comprised the frontier.


    Articles by Asa Eger

    http://uncg.academia.edu/AsaEger
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #242 - April 10, 2015, 05:32 PM

    http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2015/2015-03-39.html

    Quote
    Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2015.03.39
    Jonathan M. Hall, Artifact and Artifice: Classical Archaeology and the Ancient Historian.   Chicago:  University of Chicago Press, 2014.  Pp. xviii, 248.  ISBN 9780226096988.  $45.00 (pb).   

    Reviewed by Andrea Guzzetti, San José State University (andrea.guzzetti@gmail.com)
    Preview

    The relationship between textual and archaeological evidence in the study of classical antiquity has always been complex, being based on a web of reasoning processes and assumptions not always formulated clearly. The encounter of the two fields involves epistemological issues (which discipline establishes criteria to evaluate interpretations for which?), but also dynamics of power and influence, both in academia and in the world at large, which affect very concrete experiences, such as access to funding and the use of the past to advance political agendas. In his new book, Jonathan Hall seeks to untangle at least some strands of this web, an attempt even more timely now that the discussion about the advantages and the limitations of different sources of evidence tends to embrace other disciplines besides philology and archaeology.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #243 - April 11, 2015, 11:21 AM

    The religious life of pre-Islamic Syria (and the context for the rise of Islam)

    Peter Brown - The Rise and Function of the Holy Man in Late Antiquity

    http://faculty.washington.edu/brownj9/LifeoftheProphet/The%20Rise%20of%20the%20Holy%20Man%20-%20Brown.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #244 - April 11, 2015, 11:26 AM

    Quote
    fortified fortresses


    As opposed to the Maginot Line, I suppose.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #245 - April 12, 2015, 10:50 PM

    It's Orthodox Easter today.

    Long after the Qur'anic period but still on the theme of relations between Syriac Christianity and Islam

    Found: Ibn Taymiyya on Palm Sunday

    https://mafqudwamawjud.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/found-ibn-taymiyya-on-palm-sunday/

    Partying Like It’s 1299: al-Dimashqi on Easter

    https://mafqudwamawjud.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/partying-like-its-1299-al-dimashqi-on-easter/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #246 - April 17, 2015, 11:47 PM

    Annette Yoshiko  Reed - Fallen Angels and the Afterlives of Enochic Traditions in Early Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/11883958/_Fallen_Angels_and_the_Afterlives_of_Enochic_Traditions_in_Early_Islam_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #247 - April 18, 2015, 09:57 AM

    On the holy man, do we not have a period of about seven hundred years where huge changes happened bracketed by two super holy men - Jesus and mo, both of whom have been proposed as mythological?

    Maybe the invention of the holy man is critically important?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #248 - April 18, 2015, 04:14 PM

    Annette Yoshiko  Reed - Fallen Angels and the Afterlives of Enochic Traditions in Early Islam


    The introduction has this email - "Hello; my name is Patricia Crone, and I am a scholar of Islam. May I invite you to lunch to talk about fallen angels?"

    That would certainly be an improvement over the Mormons I usually get here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #249 - April 18, 2015, 04:53 PM

    You'd think a scholar of islam would know in islam there are no fallen angels as angels in islam have no free will. Sounds dodgy. Even a layman would know that role is played by jinns.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #250 - April 18, 2015, 06:32 PM

    Quod Sum Eris: Crone's quote is in the context of direction of influence. This is from Enochian Judaism (which did, sometimes, admit of angels with free-will) toward Islam (which - as you mention - doesn't). The Qur'an lies somewhere between: Iblis is called an angel (mala'ik) in Q. 2:34, 15:28-31, and 20:116, but a jinn in 18:50.

    So, it was important to Crone that the tangle be identified and sorted-out.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #251 - April 18, 2015, 09:10 PM

    That's a better email than most.

    Here's the link again for Patricia Crone's article The Book of Watchers in the Qur'an

    https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_The_Book_of_Watchers_2013.pdf

    Also a Google preview of Revelation, Literature and Community in Late Antiquity. This includes Crone's article Angels versus Humans as Messengers of God (with some frustrating missing pages).

    https://encrypted.google.com/books?id=LAgSEmexhEMC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ViewAPI#v=onepage&q&f=false
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #252 - April 19, 2015, 08:26 AM

    Quote
    Persia fell under a type of Islam - Shia - that is so different as almost to constitute a different religion. In the early 16th century, in pursuit of religious uniformity, the Ottomans not only fought their own wars of religion against the Persians, but also started persecuting their own Shia, now called Alevis. The Alevis practise an Islam that is almost unrecognisable, in that women are equal and drink is drunk.


    Norman stone guardian review

    Is it a mistake to use the term Islam?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #253 - April 19, 2015, 08:30 AM

    Quod Sum Eris: Crone's quote is in the context of direction of influence. This is from Enochian Judaism (which did, sometimes, admit of angels with free-will) toward Islam (which - as you mention - doesn't). The Qur'an lies somewhere between: Iblis is called an angel (mala'ik) in Q. 2:34, 15:28-31, and 20:116, but a jinn in 18:50.

    So, it was important to Crone that the tangle be identified and sorted-out.

    I was being humorous.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #254 - April 19, 2015, 08:02 PM

    Quod Sum Eris: Crone's quote is in the context of direction of influence. This is from Enochian Judaism (which did, sometimes, admit of angels with free-will) toward Islam (which - as you mention - doesn't). The Qur'an lies somewhere between: Iblis is called an angel (mala'ik) in Q. 2:34, 15:28-31, and 20:116, but a jinn in 18:50.

    So, it was important to Crone that the tangle be identified and sorted-out.


    You just reminded me of something ... in my paper on Q 105, I argued that 'tayran' was formerly a metaphor for 'angel,' which is how it is used in Q 105, and this is why King Solomon is said to have commanded an army of humans, jinn, and birds -- previously it was an army of humans, demons, and angels, all three intelligent created beings, just as in Christian and Jewish traditions about King Solomon.  But the angels were reinterpreted as birds and later used in that secondary sense, I speculated because it would seem polytheistic for King Solomon to command Allah's angels.

    I don't know why I missed the more precise explanation, which is that formerly angels had free will, as in Christianity/Judaism, but Islam later developed an aversion to Angels having free will (since it's shirk).  Sinai notes how verse 4 of Q 97 includes a blatant interpolation adding that the angels descend 'by Allah's decree,' to clarify that they are not acting of their own free will.

    So this evolution of dogma against angelic free will would beautifully explain why Solomon can no longer command angels in later Islamic tradition, and instead he now commands 'birds.'  And that transformation emerges in parallel with dogmatic interpolations in another early Qur'anic surah, Q 97.

    Need to update that footnote now.  Also want to update that paper to reflect another obvious point I had missed, which is why Q 105 is harping on and on about Maccabees and Ptolemaic/Seleucid war elephants in the first instance:  Because it it homily, which reminds the believers that God saved his believers in the past from pagan armies symbolized by war elephants, and will surely do so against the contemporary Sassanid threat, probably via aiding our heroic Byzantine emperor, Heraclius.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #255 - April 20, 2015, 07:31 AM

    Quote
    Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?   أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَابِ الْفِيلِ
    Qur'an 105:2   N’a-t-Il pas déjoué leurs manoeuvres,   Did He not bring their stratagem to naught,   أَلَمْ يَجْعَلْ كَيْدَهُمْ فِي تَضْلِيلٍ
    Qur'an 105:3   en lançant contre eux des oiseaux par nuées,   And send against them swarms of flying creatures,   وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْرًا أَبَابِيلَ
    Qur'an 105:4   qui les bombardèrent de pierres d’argile,   Which pelted them with stones of baked clay,   تَرْمِيهِمْ بِحِجَارَةٍ مِنْ سِجِّيلٍ
    Qur'an 105:5   au point de les réduire à l’état d’une balle dont le grain a été dévoré?   And made them like green crops devoured (by cattle)?


    http://www.quranse.org/QueryEngine/index.php?Cmd=P&FromCmd=AS&b=Qur&c=105&v1=1&v2=5&DP=1&DG=1&QtID3=frchiadmi&QtID4=pickthall&BtID0=esv&BL=en

    Are there allusions here to Jesus making sparrows from clay?

    Have Arab armies ever used elephants? 

    I am trying to work out if the koran has actually been that important or was more used to reinforce various power holders pre existing views.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #256 - April 30, 2015, 03:39 PM



    New book

    Michael Phillip Penn - When Christians first met Muslims

    http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520284944

    Read the introduction

    http://www.ucpress.edu/content/chapters/12897.intro.pdf

    According to the publishers

    Quote
    The first Christians to meet Muslims were not Latin-speaking Christians from the western Mediterranean or Greek-speaking Christians from Constantinople but rather Christians from northern Mesopotamia who spoke the Aramaic dialect of Syriac. Living under Muslim rule from the seventh century to the present, Syriac Christians wrote the first and most extensive accounts of Islam, describing a complicated set of religious and cultural exchanges not reducible to the solely antagonistic.

    Through its critical introductions and new translations of this invaluable historical material, When Christians First Met Muslims allows scholars, students, and the general public to explore the earliest interactions between what eventually became the world’s two largest religions, shedding new light on Islamic history and Christian-Muslim relations.

    Quote
    "Michael Philip Penn’s When Christians First Met Muslims is an extremely important text. The sources Penn collated in Syriac are among some of the earliest reports we have about the emerging community there. Scholars of the latest of 'late antiquity,' of early Byzantium, and of the early community of believers around Muhammad will benefit from having these sources in English. Penn's scholarship is truly superior.” —Ellen Muehlberger, author of Angels in Late Ancient Christianity

    “Syriac sources preserve our earliest historical information for Christian-Muslim encounters, written by Christian contemporaries who experienced firsthand the massive changes brought by the Arab conquests of the seventh century and thereafter in the Middle East. This volume offers a new collection of vivid and lucid translations that open to the reader new vistas on how religions interact, adapt, and flourish, even under circumstances of inexorable change. Michael Penn is a religion scholar of rare dexterity in handling primary sources, secondary scholarship, and cutting-edge critical theory, all with equal command. Here is a volume for scholars and students of religion, history, and culture. It will matter enormously for all who share an interest in Christianity or Islam.”—Susan Harvey, Willard Prescott and Annie McClelland Smith Professor of Religious Studies at Brown University

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #257 - April 30, 2015, 04:14 PM

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    New book  Michael Phillip Penn - When Christians first met Muslims

    http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520284944

    Read the introduction

    http://www.ucpress.edu/content/chapters/12897.intro.pdf

    According to the publishers 


     sounds like a good book..

    well on the way let me add the link of same/similar subject from Muslim Intellectual point of view... The first contact between a Christian & a Muslim.,  MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DIALOGUE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #258 - May 01, 2015, 09:34 AM



    Gabriel Said Reynolds and Tom Holland discuss Sean Anthony's book on Twitter

    https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/593528098840129537
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #259 - May 01, 2015, 03:14 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds again
    Quote
    The #Quran, like early Christian texts such as the Cave of Treasures, reports that the angels bowed before Adam when he was created.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/theologyGSR/status/591999519333556225
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #260 - May 01, 2015, 03:32 PM

    Quote
    The first Christians to meet Muslims


    How have Muslims changed their beliefs over time?  Surely at the beginning things were very embyonic and only became formalised later.  Would early "Muslims" be recognised as such now?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #261 - May 01, 2015, 03:50 PM

    ^They might look more like rather unorthodox Syriac Christians.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #262 - May 01, 2015, 03:57 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds and Tom Holland discuss Sean Anthony's book on Twitter

    https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/593528098840129537


    That's rad.  Anthony is lucky to write a book on such a visceral and bonkers subject.  Most academics have to write on things like salt mine financing in 9th century Armenia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #263 - May 01, 2015, 04:34 PM

    Quote
    salt mine financing in 9th century Armenia


    Woah!  Don't diss that very important subject discussing the interaction of late antiquity orthodoxy, the Roman Empire, slavery and proto Islam!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #264 - May 01, 2015, 04:38 PM

    Ie from google scholar!

    http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/issuedetails.aspx?issueid=d5596597-d403-451a-b3b1-90121f133c93&articleId=f3339f2c-d348-4202-98b5-305e0802a304

    Quote
    Quote
    Recent historiography is particularly large, varied as subject matter and rich in topics regarding the history of great difficulty of the Khazars. My work covers a small segment, both spatially and temporally. Although the territory inhabited by Romanians was close to the medieval Khazar Empire, it has rarely been addressed in the specialized literature and is therefore difficult to argue for a theory or another; there remains a vast and dynamic area of ethnography, which feeds on many elements of civilization, well preserved in its cultural scaffolding. We have built this study on two main elements: historical and ethnographic elements, through which I will try to present possible influences of civilization of the Jewish Khazars received by Romanian in early Middle Ages. The historical element will be grafted on the Hungarian influence in Transylvania in the ninth to eleventh centuries and the ethnographic element will be based on the field research conducted in the last two decades of the nineteenth-century by the philologist Lazarus Şăineanu in Oltenia.
    Keywords:   Khazar Empire; Jewish Khazars; philologist Lazarus Şăineanu



    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #265 - May 01, 2015, 05:41 PM

    See also Michael Bonner on Armenia: http://www.mrjb.ca/essays
    Quote
    ....
    After 661, when Armenia was subject to the Caliphate, the customary biblical and theological explanation no longer made sense, and there arose a new school of historiography, such as Mahé described.  Sebeos’ History embodies this change, and it is within the context of this outward-looking, universal history that we can explore the substance of the question.

    First, Sebeos’ attitude to the Arabs.  His portrait of Mohammed is downright flattering.  The Arabian prophet is “well versed in the history of Moses,” and he is said to have enjoined upon his followers all manner of respectable precepts.”[7]  In contrast to the perfidious Jews and the heretical Chalcedonians, both of whom have wandered from the truth, the Arabs have a legitimate claim on the patrimony of Abraham, viz. the Promised Land, and, by reason of the faithful adherence to the religion of Abraham, God grants them possession of Palestine and the Holy City, and promises them divine aid.  Accordingly, as Mahé declares, the Saracen occupation of the Holy Land « n’est pas étrangère aux desseins de la Providence. »[8]

    Nevertheless, the author or compiler of Sebeos’ History condemns Armenian association with the victorious Arabs.  Those Armenians who have allied with the caliphate are said to have made “an accord with death,” and “a pact…with Hell.”[9]  The sentiment expressed by these strong words accords well with the general Armenian reaction to Arabian rule, which soon replaced the native administration, and introduced onerous taxes under the caliph Abdel Malik (685-705).  There were several Armenian revolts.  Nevertheless, Sebeos interpretation of Mohammed’s role seems to have been unique in Armenian historiography, as later authors question his legitimacy, and demonise him.

    In any case, Mahé lays too much stress on Sebeos’ being a Monophysite.  As Kaegi has observed, in Sebeos’ History (as opposed to the Fragments) the Islamic Empire is compared to Daniel’s fourth beast, a divine retribution for all Christian sin.  This is in sharp contrast to the work of John of Nikiu, who, for instance, blames Arabian success on the errors of the heretical Chalcedonians.  Whereas Sebeos, as we have observed, acknowledges the legitimacy of Mohammed’s mission within the Abrahamic faith (for lack of a better term), John of Nikiu views Islam as an entirely different religion, calling Mohammed “a beast,” who invented “a detestable doctrine.”[10]
    ....

    The author or compiler of Sebeos’ History believed, as Greenwood has observed, that he was narrating the events that should very soon culminate in the end of the world.[17]  This explains the use of imagery from Daniel, and the emphasis on correct belief.  The end times were “well under way,” the Caliphate was the fourth beast, and given the speed at which the Roman and Persian empires had been overtaken or humiliated, the reign of the Caliphs was likely to be meet a swift end also.  The implication of this is that the Armenian nation, being steadfast in orthodoxy and having survived the tribulation, will enter Christ’s kingdom, but other nations will perish.  This notwishstanding, we might be inclined to see in Sebeos’ History something much different.  As we have already observed, both the Persian and the Greek nation approved the faith of Armenia, and the Arabs were sent by divine behest to destroy the world order, which was heretical on the one hand, and pagan on the other.  Armenia, we might say perhaps tritely, is now free of the influence of the two hostile powers between which it had laboured for more than five hundred years: the old causes and conflicts need no longer be waged, and a new modus vivendi must be sought with the new masters of the world.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #266 - May 01, 2015, 10:38 PM

    John of Nikiu is very dangerous to work with, on account of it being multiply translated, and riddled with holes, and not referenced by other mediaeval historians. Who knows what interpolations have ended up in there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #267 - May 02, 2015, 10:31 AM

    Talking of Armenians...
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yz0TuszAc0
    Ian David Morris posted this episode of the Jinn and Tonic Show on his blog a while ago. He has now posted a reply to a fairly thoughtful comment, and questioning, from a non-traditionalist Muslim. Comment and response shown below.

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/the-jinn-tonic-show/#comment-114350
    Quote from: Muslim friend for understanding
    Greetings Ian and also greetings to the person who was hosting you and also to the other gentleman whose voice I heard asking questions.

    I have only seen about 40 minutes of Part 2. I find this talk fascinating.

    I am a Muslim believer and I try to practice Islam as best as I could.

    By profession, I am a physician and an epidemiologist. Epidemiologists design studies so as to reduce bias including biases such as recall bias, reporting bias, social acceptability bias, and many other biases.

    I am happy to hear that the field of studying the origins of Islam has become more critical.

    I do not hold the hadith literature to be as authentic as Traditional Muslims do.

    However, I hold them to be more likely to be true than the view I am hearing hear.

    I definitely believe that a large number of sahih “authentic” hadiths are fabrications. However, I find that by reading many different hadiths by various sources such as proto-Sunnis and proto-Shias and Kharijites (all very early Muslims).

    I think it is very good to include non-Muslim account for triangulation.

    However, is it just me or what? I think the idea that some Armenian or Greek account of early Muslims to be more accurate than the record of Muslim writings to be quite bizarre.

    The non-Muslims who were conquered would have a huge bias in what they write.

    I agree with you that early Muslim writers would also be biased but I feel more comfortable with reading a pious and accomplished Muslim jurist than reading a very upset Armenian or Greek thousands of kilometers away and who does not know the culture nor language.

    I agree that the earlier provenance of the non-Muslim accounts is an advantage but I think the disadvantages out weight them.

    Let me put it this way.

    I would be more receptive what some great grandson of President Lincoln writes about what he heard passed down his family than what some confederate writes about Lincoln even if the confederate was some decades earlier. And I would be even more receptive than what Mexicans were writing about President Lincoln even if they were writing decades before the great grandson.

    I applaud the historical critical method but I think sometimes specialists are so fond of employing their tools of trade, they tend to discard common sense at times.

    By saying this I mean no offense Ian to you.

    I read many of the articles in your website and I agree with much of what you said.

    However, I am a little less enthusiastic to think that Abdal Razak made outright fabrications. I agree that there are many mechanisms by which distortions and even outright fabrications can occur. But it seems a stretch to hear of a pious and established person to make vast numbers of fabrications.

    I think you need to spend some time being in the ethos of traditional Muslim scholars to get a sense at how repulsive someone is with lying. Lying is condemned repeatedly in the Qur’an, especially lying on religious issues.

    I do agree that there must have many lies by Muslims. Certainly Muslim scholars agree that there was a sea of forged hadiths.

    But I think it is less likely that established pious people would be making fabrications.

    Of course, only God knows best.

    I am grateful that you are applying a more critical method and I share with what much of you have said because again, I disagree often with the approach taken by the traditionalists.

    Having said though, I request you to continually question your primary and secondary assumptions and your zeal for historical critical method at the expense of common sense.

    I am not a specialist in your field so I may be mistaken.

    I have only heard 40 minutes and only of Part 2 but I plan to hear more.

    Anyhow, I wish you the best in your career. I pray to God to allow you to help illuminate early Islamic history more clearly and for and your host to be pleased with the contributions you both make (assuming your host is a historian) towards this field.

    I believe in God and thus I believe that any contribution to clarifying history is good for us all.

    Ecumenically yours and peace to you all,

    Muslim friend

    Quote from: Ian D Morris
    Hi! Thanks for visiting, and for challenging me with both clarity and respect. There’s a lot of ideas to spin off from your comment and I can’t do it justice all at once, but I’d like to tell you a few things that occur to me right now.

    The labels “pious”, “accomplished” and “established” aren’t matters of fact. Medieval history-writers appealed to the imagined character of their transmitters because that lent credibility to their facts, and since the facts were contested, so were the characters transmitting them: the genre assessing these transmitters (al-jarh wa’l-ta‘dil) was a battlefield. If we believe (the line attributed to) Malik b. Anas, Ibn Ishaq was “an antichrist among the antichrists”; if we believe (what’s attributed to) Shu‘bah, he was “commander of the believers in tradition”. Character is discursively constructed and sometimes negotiated by competing parties.

    In any case, we know that isnads are faulty; the plea to consider the (factitious, valorised) character of transmitters can’t undo the observation that hadiths are widely misattributed. Hadiths once attributed to respected actors of the seventh and eighth centuries were slowly reassigned to Muhammad, and isnads were built ad hoc to connect with him: he emerged as the central lawgiver in the Muslim imagination. Muhammad was kind of a gravity well into which popular hadiths tumbled.

    I wouldn’t call this ‘lying’, because I don’t think it’s helpful to moralise or psychologise our subjects, but it is fabrication. It’s important to understand that medieval Muslims aren’t unique in this respect. We have always done this. Stories and quotations are forever being reimagined, relocated, reattributed. Muhammad is to hadith as Oscar Wilde is to quotes on the internet. The problem is not that Muslims are liars (as my colleagues are often misunderstood to say), but that people in general are far less reliable, and far more inventive, than we think we are.

    As for non-Arabic sources: it’s a matter of constant debate how much detail we can reliably glean from them. But there’s a good reason historians prefer more contemporaneous sources when possible: the longer historical facts are transmitted, the more they mutate. The non-Arabic sources were conditioned by a few generations’ worth of gossip and speculation, repackaging and reframing, mistakes, rhetoric and dodgy statistics. The Arabic tradition was bounced around for some two hundred years before it was (somewhat) fixed in the written forms we can access.

    Your tacit premise is that medieval Muslim writers were drawing on material from insiders and (near-)eyewitnesses, even if this material had been damaged in transmission. But very often in the Arabic tradition we can infer how narrative exigencies spawned new facts to carry moral, theological and political messages. Over such a huge timescale, the damage to the tradition’s historicity is devastating. The Muslim scholars of the ninth century claimed an unbroken chain leading back to the witnesses of the seventh century. But the scholars weren’t ‘insiders’ any more: they were remaking the past in ways intelligible and useful to them. The profusion of details in the narrative accounts (however conflicting!) is not evidence of superior knowledge about the past: it’s a literary strategy to give the effect of reality to traditional stories. Again, this is not unique to Arabs or Muslims: it’s a well-known feature of story-telling.

    My point is this: The Arab-Islamic tradition does not represent an ‘insider’ viewpoint as opposed to the ‘outsider’ perspective of the Syriac, Greek and other sources. All the sources construct events from a great distance and embed them in master narratives that could well have seemed bizarre to the seventh-century Arabs: they are all ‘outsiders’.

    I second your appeal to self-doubt. I hope to live up to that value – but how would I know?!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #268 - May 03, 2015, 11:26 AM

    Peter Brown putting things into a wider early medieval context in his new preface to the revised edition of The Rise of Western Christendom (page xxxviii):

    Quote
    ....

    Last but not least, a community's sense of identity depends, to a very great extent, on its ability to talk itself into accepting historical narratives that link members of the present-day community to their imagined, "primordial" past. The study of the "barbarians" of Europe has shown this to be a major preoccupation of each group. As we have seen, in chapter 4 and elsewhere, most groups of barbarians emerged from nondescript beginnings. They did not carry ready-made ethnic identities with them when they crossed the Roman frontier. As a result, Franks, Goths, Anglo-Saxons, and many like them spent the next few centuries persuading themselves and others that they were they: each was a glorious group; each had a long history. Franks claimed to be descended from the ancient Trojans. Saxons claimed to have crossed the North Sea to Britain, their promised land, in only three boats. Successive nomadic confederacies that arose on the plains north of the Danube spoke of themselves as "children of the Huns". All of these primordial moments (lovingly situated somewhere "out there" - in the woods of Germany, along the coast of Jutland or on the Eurasian steppes) were the creation of men of the pen, seated comfortably in royal courts and monasteries in the heart of long-settled regions of Europe.

    Nor was the urge to define oneself in terms of links with a vivid past limited to barbarian Europe. As we have seen, the Muslims of the Middle East rapidly came to wrap themselves in a skein of plausible narratives, that justified their conquests to the local populations and that placed the origins of Islam itself in an exclusively Arabian environment. Whether in Europe or in the Middle East, what we now call "the barbarian identity" grew from such historical sleights of hand. These histories are among the greatest creations of the early medieval period.

    ....

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Rise-Western-Christendom-Diversity/dp/1118301269/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #269 - May 03, 2015, 12:41 PM

    Man I am going to lift that Peter brown quote for my q 105 essay, it's exactly my point about the quraysh!
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