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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2580 - July 28, 2018, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 09:06 PM
    How so?


    He's Catholic!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2581 - July 28, 2018, 09:23 PM
    Thought as much. Do you consider that to be a problem?

    I wonder if Gallez is as critical of the New Testament documents as he is of the Quran and Hadith.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2582 - July 28, 2018, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on July 27, 2018, 04:45 PM
    Any book/author you would suggest in order to do this ?


    Your brain. Or waiting for my book. (4/5/6 years of work.) All should be grounded.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2583 - July 28, 2018, 09:29 PM
    When is your book going to get published?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2584 - July 28, 2018, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 09:23 PM
    Thought as much. Do you consider that to be a problem?

    I wonder if Gallez is as critical of the New Testament documents as he is of the Quran and Hadith.


    1/ It might be, it depends.
    2/The problematic is not the same. Cannot be comparable, Jesus is not the producer of the Gospels.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2585 - July 28, 2018, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 09:29 PM
    When is your book going to get published?


    I need 4/5/ maybe 6 years of work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2586 - July 28, 2018, 09:36 PM
    Oh! That is a lot of time. Wish you the best of luck.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2587 - July 28, 2018, 09:43 PM
    Thank you, dear Maghrayé!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2588 - July 28, 2018, 09:49 PM
    No problem. This might sound somewhat pretentious, since you are more knowledgeable than me, so forgive me. But if you need anything, I would be honored to help.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2589 - July 28, 2018, 11:41 PM
    1/"Gallez is catholic"

    I think a believing Muslim cannot be objective in his Quran criticism. And a catholic cannot be wholly objective on catholic stuff. Only logical no?

    2/ No one any comment on my 7C Mecca source??
    Quote
    On Mecca, Ananias of Sirak, p71

    https://archive.org/stream/TheGeographyOfAnaniasOfSirak/The%20Geography%20of%20Ananias%20of%20Sirak#page/n55/mode/2up/search/Mecca

    This is a geography book without maps (probably maps got lost) and it is apparently 7th C. Mecca is assumed to be a later interpolation "because it cannot be that it is an Arabia Petraea"".

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2590 - July 29, 2018, 12:00 AM
    No scholar is wholly objective. Everyone has a bias. Some more or less than others.

    Very interesting source. The name sounds familiar. Where get that quote? Can't find it.The editors comment on the mention of Mecca (p. 223, n. 70) is interesting. It seems that he connects the mentions with Ptolemy's (?) Macoraba.

    Ptolemy also locates Mecca somewhere in Arabia Petraea.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2591 - July 29, 2018, 02:39 AM
    Quote
    Ptolemy also locates Mecca somewhere in Arabia Petraea.


    Morris has explained in his blog that Ptolomy's  Macaroba has nothing to do with Mecca. And as far as I know Ptolomy didnt mention Arabia Petraea being the area for Mecca. (Western Arabia apparently: http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-2-makoraba-macoraba/)

    Ptolomy must have know Arabia Petraea quite well, living in Alexandria in the 2nd CE. The entrance to Arabia Petraea was in Aila (current Aqaba). From there the camel caravans went to Gaza. It was very important at the time of the incense trade. According to my sources Ptolomy did not put macaroba in Arabia Petraea. Attributing Mecca in a 7th C source to Ptolomy's Macoroba in West Arabia seems to me to be a stretch.

    I can accept a later interpolation, but I don't think that is a given.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2592 - July 29, 2018, 02:48 AM
    I was not referring to Macaroba but Moca, which he places in  Arabia Petraea.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2593 - July 29, 2018, 03:24 AM
    Moca: Interesting, indeed Arabiae Petraea. Why has Moca never been associated with Mecca? Resembles much more than Macoroba...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2594 - July 29, 2018, 07:06 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 29, 2018, 12:00 AM
    No scholar is wholly objective. Everyone has a bias. Some more or less than others.

    Very interesting source. The name sounds familiar. Where get that quote? Can't find it.The editors comment on the mention of Mecca (p. 223, n. 70) is interesting. It seems that he connects the mentions with Ptolemy's (?) Macoraba.

    Ptolemy also locates Mecca somewhere in Arabia Petraea.


    1/In the next 50 years AI will be feed by all the sources with the question : what is at the origin of Islam? It will give a response.
    2/There's no Mecca before Islam (as described...) therefore no "prophet". Or a "prophet" speaking to sand and basalt, starving, then dead.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2595 - July 29, 2018, 07:17 AM
    Quote from: mundi on July 29, 2018, 02:39 AM
    Morris has explained in his blog that Ptolomy's  Macaroba has nothing to do with Mecca. And as far as I know Ptolomy didnt mention Arabia Petraea being the area for Mecca. (Western Arabia apparently: http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-2-makoraba-macoraba/)

    1/ It's more  complicated.
    2/ Yes.
    Quote
    Ptolomy must have know Arabia Petraea quite well, living in Alexandria in the 2nd CE. The entrance to Arabia Petraea was in Aila (current Aqaba). From there the camel caravans went to Gaza. It was very important at the time of the incense trade. According to my sources Ptolomy did not put macaroba in Arabia Petraea. Attributing Mecca in a 7th C source to Ptolomy's Macoroba in West Arabia seems to me to be a stretch.

    I can accept a later interpolation, but I don't think that is a given.


    1/ Yes.
    2/ As for all scholars the existence of "Mecca" was granted, because they thought that the narrative was "historical" (they had no reason to think the contrary...) The mention of a "Macoraba" by a Greek author satisfied them.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2596 - July 29, 2018, 07:35 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 28, 2018, 09:49 PM
    No problem. This might sound somewhat pretentious, since you are more knowledgeable than me, so forgive me. But if you need anything, I would be honored to help.


    Dear Mahgraye,
    I'm maybe more knowledgeable than you today. But you can rejoin me. My issue with your studies, is that you do not read French, to read Gallez,, Dye, de Prémare, Gobillot, Brelaud, Borrut, etc. Unfortunately it is, for me, indispensable in Early Islam (history and Quranic studies), because they are better trained than in the Anglo Saxon world.
    Thanks for your offer! The better way to help is to do what you do here.  I assure you , theses discussion are helpful. For you and for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2597 - July 29, 2018, 09:07 AM
    Quote from: mundi on July 29, 2018, 02:39 AM
    Morris .......................

    Quote
    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-2-makoraba-macoraba/)

    Ptolemy has a section on the western and southern regions of Arabia, which is useful for those of us studying the region’s history: the peoples of ancient Arabia did not leave us many written sources, so foreign sources like Ptolemy help us track the rise and fall of towns, powers, religions and trade routes. Some of Ptolemy’s locations in Arabia are known to us, like Yathrib (Lathrippa), present-day Medina; some are unknown or disputed. Among the names is Macoraba – Ptolemy spells it Makoraba in Greek, but Latin translations prefer Machoraba and Macoraba – which Ptolemy puts in the west of the Arabian Peninsula.

    There is a consensus in academic scholarship that Mecca is Macoraba. The coordinates put it roughly in the right place, and the name seems roughly correct. Several etymologies have been proposed, but the preferred solution is that it comes from an Old South Arabian word like *mikrāb, with the meaning ‘temple’. Macoraba was therefore a noteworthy centre of pre-Islamic religion as far back as the second century CE. When you encounter Macoraba in scholarly literature you are quite likely to find this etymology, and extremely likely to find the identification with Mecca.



    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-1-diodorus-and-the-kaaba/ 

     http://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/AUTHORS/Agatharchides.pdf

    too many assumptions and too much extrapolation................
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2598 - July 29, 2018, 11:47 AM
    Morris has a career to build.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2599 - July 29, 2018, 12:12 PM
    Mecca and Morris: He concludes that Macaroba CANNOT be Mecca.

    My question now is why Ptolomy's Moka never is associated with Mecca?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2600 - July 29, 2018, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: mundi on July 29, 2018, 12:12 PM
    Mecca and Morris: He concludes that Macaroba CANNOT be Mecca.

    My question now is why Ptolomy's Moka never is associated with Mecca?


    Crone did in Hagarism.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2601 - July 29, 2018, 01:28 PM
    Gibson explain why Mecca cannot be Macoraba.

    https://fr.scribd.com/document/254566845/MECCA-is-not-MACORABA

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2602 - July 29, 2018, 02:30 PM
    Not sure if any of those comments were aimed at me, but it best that I explain what I meant.

    I am not referring to Ptolemy's Macoraba. When describing the towns Arabia Petraea, Ptolemy mentions a town called Moka, which is Græcification of Makkah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2603 - July 29, 2018, 02:43 PM
    To all,

    Enlightened scholars from Crone to Gibson to Morris recognise that Ptolomy's Macoroba CANNOT be contemporary Mecca. We all agree.

    Now that Magraye pointed out that Ptolomy also mentions a Moka in Arabiae Petraea, I wonder why this has never been used to associate the 7th C Mecca of the Quran with? We have so many Quranic geographical references in the north and none in Arabia Deserta or Felix, To find a geographical reference for Mecca (Moka) in Arabia Petraea would be in the logic of the Quran. But I never read anything about that, no promotion of the idea, no debunking of this idea. I dont get it. Even Gibson doesnt refer to Ptolomeus' Moka as possibly being his Petra.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2604 - July 29, 2018, 02:54 PM
    Since this is a Quranic Studies group, I might as well share this great news: Tayyar Altıkulaç - one of the leading experts of Quran manuscripts - is soon going to publish his book on fifth oldest Quran, Or. 2165. Looking forward to reading his work,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2605 - July 29, 2018, 02:58 PM
    Quote
    Dear Mahgraye,
    I'm maybe more knowledgeable than you today. But you can rejoin me. My issue with your studies, is that you do not read French, to read Gallez,, Dye, de Prémare, Gobillot, Brelaud, Borrut, etc. Unfortunately it is, for me, indispensable in Early Islam (history and Quranic studies), because they are better trained than in the Anglo Saxon world.
    Thanks for your offer! The better way to help is to do what you do here.  I assure you , theses discussion are helpful. For you and for me.



    Thanks, dear Altara. I might not know French right know, but I certainly planning on learning the language soon so I can access the literature you mentioned. Thankfully, some of the authors you mentioned have been translated to Arabic and English.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2606 - July 29, 2018, 03:20 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on July 29, 2018, 01:25 PM
    Crone did in Hagarism.




    Yes. So Moka is not Mecca. End of story.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2607 - July 29, 2018, 03:21 PM
    Quote from: mundi on July 29, 2018, 02:43 PM
    To all,

    Enlightened scholars from Crone to Gibson to Morris recognise that Ptolomy's Macoroba CANNOT be contemporary Mecca. We all agree.
    ..............

     all these


    Moka... Mecca
    Macoroba... Mecca
    Petraea ... Mecca
    Bakkah ...... Mecca
    yeeha woooha

    Has to be there before Islam and before PBUH... the so-called contemporary Mecca  should be renamed as  SAND LAND SAUDS TOMBSTONE TOWN  and is nothing to do with Islam and origin of Islam..

    The Damn mecca could be Bakkah valley  or Valley of Baca that is mentioned in Psalms Chapter 84,  which is copy pasted in Quran song/sonnet/story of
    sura 3  verse 96
    Quote
    96   Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations.

    and in  that 48:24 wacko  verse
    Quote
       24   And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.


    Now think about the other town the present Madina  .. which is allegedly advertised as Yathrib in the story of prophet Muhammad and his followers  migration from alleged  Mecca to  alleged Yathrib  by the alleged persecution of alleged prophet by those Arab pagans, which the Yathrib allegedly renamed by prophet as Medina, in the year 622.

    Such important place in the history of Islam is not even mentioned in Quran  and that story and the name "Madina"  may have come from that Aramaic word Medinta,

    now we have  more  sly stories  on Prophet town THE MAGNETIC MADINA

    It is full of holes and every one in modern times to looking for selling Islam  to make a buck  or  publish paper for a Ph.D. or for tenure positions as Altara mentioned
    Quote from: Altara on July 29, 2018, 11:47 AM
    Morris has a career to build.

      yes .... indeed in recent times it all boils down to sell stories/ sell books and   build career in the name of Islam...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2608 - July 29, 2018, 03:26 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 29, 2018, 02:58 PM
    Thanks, dear Altara. I might not know French right know, but I certainly planning on learning the language soon so I can access the literature you mentioned. Thankfully, some of the authors you mentioned have been translated to Arabic and English.


    I warn you ; it is a difficult language (grammar) much more subtle than English in which you can express many nuances. But as 60% of the English language is French...  Roll Eyes
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2609 - July 29, 2018, 03:28 PM
    Bakka is not Makka.

    Damn. Gotta try my best then haha. And I see you are talking jabs at English haha.

    How is Moka not Mecca, dear Altara?
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