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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1508397 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3270 - August 18, 2018, 06:59 PM

    Exodus:

    According to Gallez the Arabs were joined by the Nazarenes with focus on Jerusalem. The year of the Arabs must have something to do with Jerusalem then.


    Good move outside (at last!) the 'Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem" But Nope again (but good move!)

    I am referring to an event which is only known by Muslim sources but outside of "Mecca/Medina" (then  It is not Charter of Medina.) . Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it.
    De Prémare notices it as he notices many events. Reread it. You have to found yourself.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3271 - August 18, 2018, 07:01 PM

    If he did not die on the Cross, then how did he die, since you seem to think that the Quran affirms his death?


    Read the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3272 - August 18, 2018, 07:05 PM

    Your last remark tells me that you do not think the Quran is layered Christian text. Am I right in assuming that?


    You're more interesting to what I think that interesing to the topic. Exceptionnal!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3273 - August 18, 2018, 07:19 PM

    If he did not die on the Cross, then how did he die, since you seem to think that the Quran affirms his death?


    Q 4,158.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3274 - August 18, 2018, 07:20 PM

    How about this:

    Does it have anything to do with the death of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (r. 610–641)? Because it Emperor Heraclius who defeated the Sassanian Empire. Together with his Arab vassals - and to the surprise of both parties - the Sassanians were vanquished at their hands in a key battle. That battle took place in the year 622, the very same year that marks the beginning of the hijra and the Islamic calendar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3275 - August 18, 2018, 07:44 PM

    Nobody responded to my Kerr link on the subject. So repost it: https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    Kerr says it has to do with Heraclius, that the defence of the Holy land against tha Sassanides was kind of subcontracted to the Arabs, and indeed Easter 622 was the beginning of that Arab era.  I do think Kerr is kind of cryptic in his conclusion, so did I get that right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3276 - August 18, 2018, 07:54 PM

    How about this:

    Does it have anything to do with the death of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (r. 610–641)? Because it Emperor Heraclius who defeated the Sassanian Empire. Together with his Arab vassals - and to the surprise of both parties - the Sassanians were vanquished at their hands in a key battle. That battle took place in the year 622, the very same year that marks the beginning of the hijra and the Islamic calendar.


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3277 - August 18, 2018, 07:54 PM

    Does it have something to do with Egypt?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3278 - August 18, 2018, 07:55 PM

    Nobody responded to my Kerr link on the subject. So repost it: https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    Kerr says it has to do with Heraclius, that the defence of the Holy land against tha Sassanides was kind of subcontracted to the Arabs, and indeed Easter 622 was the beginning of that Arab era.  I do think Kerr is kind of cryptic in his conclusion, so did I get that right?


    I responded ; go back.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3279 - August 18, 2018, 07:56 PM

    Does it have something to do with Egypt?


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3280 - August 18, 2018, 07:56 PM

    Marv?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3281 - August 18, 2018, 08:04 PM

    Why?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3282 - August 18, 2018, 08:04 PM

    Abd al-Malik b. Marv-an?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3283 - August 18, 2018, 09:32 PM

    Guys... You do not know history of the time : 600-632. (yawn)... Does not surprise me that your are still stuck to the traditional account, one way or another.  Get rid of it .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3284 - August 18, 2018, 10:15 PM

    Interesting slide of the Sanaa palimpsest by Jay Smith. The differences between it and 1924 Cairo (and vice versa) edition is very interesting ;  synonyms instead of words or adding or removing some words of phrases which have in fact no importance at all ; no passages on Jesus or other things... too bad. Only Medinan sura as well...
    The presentation and commentaries of Puin (and wife) Goudarzi, Hilali... a must see.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnkFp9IZWHY
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3285 - August 18, 2018, 11:44 PM

    Abraha?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3286 - August 18, 2018, 11:49 PM

    I can't stand these two.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3287 - August 19, 2018, 07:16 AM

    A scholar do not care about liking or not people. Or he's not a scholar. Watch the video.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3288 - August 19, 2018, 07:18 AM

    Abraha?


    Good move outside (at last!) the 'Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem" But Nope again (but good move!)

    I am referring to an event which is only known by Muslim sources but outside of "Mecca/Medina" (then  It is not Charter of Medina.) . Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3289 - August 19, 2018, 08:29 AM

    Cuypers by Sinai : “Going Round in Circles”, review essay on Michel Cuypers, The Composition of the Qur’an: Rhetorical Analysis, and Raymond Farrin, Structure and Qur’anic Interpretation: A Study of Symmetry and Coherence in Islam’s Holy Text, Journal of Qur’anic Studies 19 (2017): 106–122.

    https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:a214da37-89d6-4431-8e4e-bc6b95be7822/download_file?file_format=pdf&safe_filename=Sinai_Going%2Bround%2Bin%2Bcircles_Feb%2B2017.pdf&type_of_work=Journal+article
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3290 - August 19, 2018, 09:53 AM

    ........................................

    Review Essay: Going Round in Circles  



    Nicolai Sinai
    Professor of Islamic Studies; Fellow of Pembroke College

    Quote
    ...............What the field does notnow need is a spate of studies animated by an a prioridetermination to press ever more surahs into a predetermined concentric mould, byhook or by crook. What the field would however be very well served by is a studyseeking to carry out a truly impartial and critical assessment of the extent to whichthe Qur’anic corpus makes use of ring composition. Such a study’s point ofdeparture should be twofold. For any given surah, the first step would need to be athorough argumentative weighing of the structural significance of various literarymarkers that can be identified in the text, such as topic shifts, vocatives, rhymechanges, or “wrap-up” formulae.24Such a structural survey, which would be able toprofit from the work of Neuwirth and Zahniser, must not yet give any consideration tosurah-internal lexical recurrences so as to avoid the problem, amply encounteredabove, that a surah’s structure is surreptitiously trimmed and tweaked in a way thatwill maximise concentric results.................


    you can do all that and more to any song, sonnet, Jazz, rap or any  instrumental music/sound or for  so-called scriptures of faiths provided if you consider it as a wonderful song sonnet ..poem....    You can not do such analysis when you use these buzz words in the paper ,,,,

    surah holism.... and with that holy Prophet of Islam... if you do such publications it means YOU ARE SUCKING UP TO ISLAMIC CROWD..

    I am sure   Sinai  can write the same paper on these songs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INcSFm0ZhLE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2oTpDi5KEI

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3291 - August 19, 2018, 02:13 PM

    ........................................
    Review Essay: Going Round in Circles   by  Nicolai Sinai  Professor of Islamic Studies; Fellow of Pembroke College

    Quote
    .......The two publications under consideration here are impelled by this holistic turn while endeavoring to push it much further. Michel Cuypers’ The Composition of the Qur’an seeks to demonstrate, at a stimulating level of detail, that Qur’anic surahs are structured in accordance with a small number of general compositional principles that govern Semitic literary production more widely. Cuypers’ objective is to establish that the method of rhetorical analysis codified by the Biblical scholar Roland Meynet ,which is also claimed to be valid for other ancient Near Eastern literature as well as for material from the ḥadīth corpus (pp. 6–7), is likewise applicable to the Qur’an. .................


     



    Rhetorical analysis : an introduction to Biblical rhetoric  by Roland Meynet.


    The Composition of the Qur'an: Rhetorical Analysis   by Michel Cuypers September 22, 2016
    https://www.ideo-cairo.org/en/tag/cuypers-en/
    Quote
    Michel Cuypers is from Belgium and lives in Cairo. Born on 1941, he is a member of the Fraternity of the Little Brothers of Jesus (Father de Foucauld).

    He lived twleve years in Iran, where he obtained a PhD in Persian literature at the University of Tehran and then worked at the University Press of Iran. He was one of the co-founders of Luqmân, a journal of iranology. Michel Cuypers left Iran in 1986 and, after studying Arabic, he became a researcher at IDEO (Cairo), where he focuses on the rhetoric analysis of the Qur’an.

    You can find on this website an example of rhetoric analysis applied to the Fātiḥa, as well as sūrat al-Māʾida (in Arabic). You can also find an article on the comparaison between the Semitic rhetoric in the Qur’an and a Pharaonic papyrus.

    In 2007, he published Le Festin. Une lecture de la sourate al-Mâ’ida (Collection «Rhétorique sémitique» n°3), Paris, Lethielleux, 2007, 453 pages. (English translation: The banquet: A reading of the fifth Sura of the Qur’an, Convivium Press, Miami, 2009, 565 pages). In 2009, this book was granted the “World Prize for the Book of the Year”, awarded by the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance of the Republic of Iran as “one of the best new works in the field of Islamic studies”.

    In March 2012, he published La Composition du Coran. نظم القرآن, Rhétorique sémitique, ed. Gabalda, Paris, 200 pages, a theoretical book in which he explains the application of Semitic rhetoric to the Qur’an. English translation: The composition of the Qur’an, Rhetorical analysis, Bloomsbury, London, New Delhi, New York, Sydney, 2015, 202 pages.

    In January 2014, he published Une apocalypse coranique. Une lecture des trente-trois dernières sourates du Coran, éd. Gabalda, Pendé (France), 364 pages, in which he summarizes and develops his previous articles on the latest chapters of the Qur’an.



    How to Read the Qur'an: A New Guide, with Select Translations  by Carl W. Ernst   2011

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3292 - August 19, 2018, 03:49 PM

    Quote
    Good move outside (at last!) the 'Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem" But Nope again (but good move!)


    Thanks. Means a lot.

    Quote
    I am referring to an event which is only known by Muslim sources but outside of "Mecca/Medina" (then  It is not Charter of Medina.) . Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it.


    It has nothing to do with the Byzantines and the Persians, right?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3293 - August 19, 2018, 04:38 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1031189749271355392
    Quote
    A nice thread by @PhDniX on the early Arabic script. The Arabic script is the latest phase of the Nabataean script and evolved at the end of the 5th c. CE. It is an accident of history that this script became associated with the Arabic language. (short thread).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3294 - August 19, 2018, 04:40 PM

    Thanks. Means a lot.

    It has nothing to do with the Byzantines and the Persians, right?


    Nope. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3295 - August 19, 2018, 05:46 PM

    Quote
    The Arabic script is the latest phase of the Nabataean script and evolved at the end of the 5th c. CE.


    How? From Heaven? Like the Quran?
    Van Putten is not able to says something about that, I'm afraid. It is not his field.  He repeats Jallad  et al. It has no influence in his work except that it insists on the "genuine" Arabic trend where Jallad (et al.) want to take him and impose as the truth. Everyone has understood. (yawn)...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3296 - August 20, 2018, 07:15 AM

    Altara,

    Any idea how language and script was transmitted in late antiquity?

    I guess for Greek and Syriac the monasteries played an important role in education of children. Greek slave tutors also seem to get a prominent role. For Hebrew/jews the religious institutions would play their part.

    What could have been the mechanism of transmitting Arabic script? We see Arabic script popping up centuries before Islam. What has come to us must be the tip of the iceberg. It is simply not possible to maintain a language/script over the centuries without a certain network or critical mass of people knowing and using the language. Except if a dead language has been revived for political reasons (eg Hebrew).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3297 - August 20, 2018, 07:35 AM

    The question :
    Quote
    Any idea how language and script was transmitted in late antiquity?


    The response :
    Quote
    I guess for Greek and Syriac the monasteries played an important role in education of children. Greek slave tutors also seem to get a prominent role. For Hebrew/jews the religious institutions would play their part.


    Quote
    We see Arabic script popping up centuries before Islam.


    Regarding the Quranic script, nope. 512 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    568 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

    Quote
    It is simply not possible to maintain a language/script over the centuries without a certain network or critical mass of people knowing and using the language.


    Of course. Critical mass, I'm not really sure of that.  it needs literati people. But script was taught largely by Arabs. We have attestation (in Jordan) of shepherd writing arabic in Greek script. It seems clear that in the 6th c., many Arabs (Palestine/Iraq) knew reading and writing in the Quranic script we see in 512 and 568.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3298 - August 20, 2018, 08:11 AM

    Quote
    it needs literati people


    If you only have eg 10 literati people, not included in an organised network, and the pest hits them, or their son dies, or another calamity, chances are big there is no transmission and the knowledge dies out.

    If you have eg 10 groups of 10 literati, even if 1 group dies out, the network will assure the knowledge gets spread again. That is critical mass, enough to withstand a calamity without dying out.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3299 - August 20, 2018, 09:13 AM

    Altara,

    Any idea how language and script was transmitted in late antiquity?

    I guess for Greek and Syriac the monasteries played an important role in education of children. Greek slave tutors also seem to get a prominent role. For Hebrew/jews the religious institutions would play their part.

    ................mechanism of transmitting Arabic script? We see Arabic script popping up centuries before Islam. What has come to us must be the tip of the iceberg. It is simply not possible to maintain a language/script over the centuries without a certain network or critical mass of people knowing and using the language. Except if a dead language has been revived for political reasons (eg Hebrew).

    that is a good point on the popularity of a or any language at a given time in the human linguistic /literary history of 10000 years or so. It  depends upon its contribution to human society in many fronts. Apart from the  ease of a linguistic script in making rhythmical songs/sonnets/poems/religious sayings .,   its ability to act as a propaganda medium in war & peace to educate large group of people at a given time in human history. You can see that in Arabic, you can see that in Yucatec Mayan language, you can see that Chinese Mandarin language and in recent times we can see that in English and French.

    In fact I would say  the so-called  Islamic Golden Age  is nothing but The golden age of Arabic language  .

    Arabian Poetry, for English Readers by   Alexander Clouston  is a good book to read through

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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