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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3360 - August 22, 2018, 09:35 AM

    The number of the page, thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3361 - August 22, 2018, 10:11 AM

    Altara, Marc,

    Trying to follow here... Am I right that I summarize your positions that "the Arabs of the East" had a much more prominent role in development of Arabic and the Quran than generally thought?

    Would make sense and explain why Arabic script was suddenly so promoted to become dominant. It was used in the political strategy of the Sassanides?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3362 - August 22, 2018, 10:12 AM

    The number of the page, thanks.



    Sorry I am on my mobile phone right now and it only tells me location 974 out of 2,263 on Kindle. It is the 4th page of the sub-chapter called "De l'Elu du dieu juif de Najran au Louangé de Bishapur".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3363 - August 22, 2018, 11:31 AM

    Quote
    Sorry I am on my mobile phone right now and it only tells me location 974 out of 2,263 on Kindle. It is the 4th page of the sub-chapter called "De l'Elu du dieu juif de Najran au Louangé de Bishapur".


    I got it.

    Well.
    1/ My  1st issue is : she does not give any illustration of these coins
    2/she said this :

    Quote
    the numismatist can read on Sassanid coins from the time of Shahrvarāz (commander in chief of the armies of Choroès II


    It is minted by whom? when?  Found where? It is not good scholarship. Florence Mraizika does not give any references. I am therefore prudent to construct a reasoning with so few things.

    Quote
    Shahrbaraz or Shahrvaraz (died 9 June 630) was king of the Sasanian Empire from 27 April 630 to 9 June 630


    Ok. At that time the Persian are collapsing and Iraq under Ctesiphon is lost to the Persians and ruled by the Nasrid (Iraqi) Arabs who have expelled them.

    Quote
    the numismatist can read on Sassanid coins of the time of Shahrvarāz (commander in chief of the armies of Choroès II a protocol Al ḥamdou Lilah transcribes already, from 630, in Arabic letters (cf. document).


    What does that mean?

    Quote
    Thus, the famous three consonants would have already been emblematic for the Sassanid Empire before being used by the proto-Muslims. "It is as if these letters had preceded Omar's arrival, yet he is by no means the introducer of Muslim currencies. "


    The Sassanid Empire minted coins in Arabic? "before being used by the proto-Muslims."?
    Why they did not mint them before 630 if it was usual?
    Suddenly they feel a love to Arabic in 630 (?) and decided to mint whereas they are in war with them, the Sassanid Empire did that?

    Quote
    For the author, the Arabic alphabet was simply drawn from the Persian alphabet. The three blessed consonants are present from the beginning of the reign of Omar in Arabic or Pahlavi on coins bearing the effigy of Chosroês and the Mazdean cult.

    The auhor she cites :
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:The_Numismatic_Facts_of_the_Kingdom_of_Georgia_(Mikhail_Barataev)

     
    Quote
    In fact, the Imperial Court of Chosroês had to have developed Arabic script by 561 - the year in which a peace treaty had been concluded with Byzantium - in order to be able to communicate with the Arab State, the vassal of Hira. But then would this expression so Koranic, so Islamic, be of Persian origin? The two Persian and Arabic alphabets then rub shoulders on the same piece. And what about those other pieces that display elephants with the inscription Mhmd rassoul Allah? "


    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3364 - August 22, 2018, 11:59 AM

    Altara, Marc,

    Trying to follow here... Am I right that I summarize your positions that "the Arabs of the East" had a much more prominent role in development of Arabic and the Quran than generally thought?

    Would make sense and explain why Arabic script was suddenly so promoted to become dominant. It was used in the political strategy of the Sassanides?


    I speak here for me.

    1/No.
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

    2/Yes.

    3/ was not "promoted" :
    Is it a "promotion"? :
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

    Quote
    It was used in the political strategy of the Sassanides?


    I do not understand.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3365 - August 22, 2018, 12:36 PM

    Altara, Marc,

    Trying to follow here... Am I right that I summarize your positions that "the Arabs of the East" had a much more prominent role in development of Arabic and the Quran than generally thought?

    Would make sense and explain why Arabic script was suddenly so promoted to become dominant. It was used in the political strategy of the Sassanides?

    mundi using wrong word there...........Arabs of the East............

     that is a wrong word to use for the people who were living in and around Eastern Arabia .... present Jordan....Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt, Israel, Palestine, Armenia, eastern Turkey and present Syria and Lebanon dear  mundi...

    Who were the actual Arabs during that time 400 AD say 700AD??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3366 - August 22, 2018, 01:02 PM


    It is minted by whom? when?  Found where? It is not good scholarship. Florence Mraizika does not give any references. I am therefore prudent to construct a reasoning with so few things.


    https://books.google.fr/books?id=ZtEppXeKgPkC&pg=RA5-PA59&lpg=RA5-PA59&dq=kniaz+mikhail+petrovich+barataev&source=bl&ots=E8qEk3R5Dz&sig=TCbEqqGgAFREleykYNHHN0W0b1c&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiogeqk0YDdAhUUM8AKHbOOA_sQ6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=kniaz%20mikhail%20petrovich%20barataev&f=false
    She mentions this book as her source. I couldn't go further than this because of the language.


    Quote
    Ok. At that time the Persian are collapsing and Iraq under Ctesiphon is lost to the Persians and ruled by the Nasrid (Iraqi) Arabs who have expelled them.


    Persians were still on the throne but there could have been an alliance between some persians and some arabs.

    Quote
    What does that mean?


    She seems too imply 2 things : 1) hmd or mhmd predates islam 2) Persians did use it on coins and it was written in arabic

    Quote
    The Sassanid Empire minted coins in Arabic? "before being used by the proto-Muslims."?
    Why they did not mint them before 630 if it was usual?



    Are we sure that we are dating properly the coins we have found. ? I remember of Walker' s islamic coins review that listed a coin dating from the year 26, and the question was which calendar does that year 26 follow.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3367 - August 22, 2018, 01:34 PM

    I just dont get how Arabic script could have survived and at the end dominated Syriac since Arabs clearly were Christian influenced.

    Why didn't  Syriac  script just take over the Arabic script since Syriac had the organisation and status Arabic doesnt seem to have in 6 C. Arabic seems to be the junior of Greek and Syriac. The institutions promoting knowledge and transfer of knowledge were the monasteries and the clergy. What caused the Arabs to develop their identity by using their own script for their not yet clearly defined religion in the early 7th C?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3368 - August 22, 2018, 01:35 PM

    Altara, Marc,

    Trying to follow here... Am I right that I summarize your positions that "the Arabs of the East" had a much more prominent role in development of Arabic and the Quran than generally thought?

    Would make sense and explain why Arabic script was suddenly so promoted to become dominant. It was used in the political strategy of the Sassanides?


    I can only say for sure (and according to me) at this stage that :

    - the arabs conquest of the east had nothing to do with a prophet coming from the hedjaz,
    - the people who got the upper hand among the arabs are not the ones from who the Quran came from.  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3369 - August 22, 2018, 01:39 PM

    Quote
    She mentions this book as her source. I couldn't go further than this because of the language.


    This is not scholarship to not give references (date, etc)

    Quote
    Persians were still on the throne but there could have been an alliance between some persians and some arabs.


    Why not. That is why this Persians would have mint these coins?
    Therefore, it might be the same in Palestine/West Syria? (Some) Romans were allied to (some) Arabs and mint fort them, and that is why we see Roman coins with Arabic ?

    Why not. What  (scribal) sources validates alliances between (some)Arabs in war and  (some)Romans whereas they are enemies,  in Palestine as the situation is the same as in Persia?
    None. And there is plenty.

    Florence Mraizika affirms what she cannot validate by any source. She is not doing scholarship, but other things I do not know...

    Quote
    Are we sure that we are dating properly the coins we have found. ? I remember of Walker' s islamic coins review that he listed a coin dating from the year 26, and the question was which calendar does that year 26 follow.


    Thanks to post the reference of the  of Walker' s islamic coins review article.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3370 - August 22, 2018, 01:41 PM

    Yeez,
    Quote
    mundi using wrong word there...........Arabs of the East............


    With "Arabs of the East"I try to express the analogy with "Christians of the East"who were those living in or in proximity with the Sassanide empire. I guess Altara would answer "academia" on this and suggest to do some research   Smiley...

    I like to take it easy and get some free knowledge!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3371 - August 22, 2018, 01:47 PM

    Why didn't  Syriac  script just take over the Arabic script since Syriac had the organisation and status Arabic doesnt seem to have in 6 C. Arabic seems to be the junior of Greek and Syriac.


    Why didn't Greek script just take over the Syriac script since Greek had the organisation and status Syriac doesnt seem to have in 1 C. Arabic seems to be the junior of Greek and Syriac

    Quote
    The institutions promoting knowledge and transfer of knowledge were the monasteries and the clergy. What caused the Arabs to develop their identity by using their own script for their not yet clearly defined religion in the early 7th C?


    Because the are clearly identified as a  different people since ages...

    Quote
    I just dont get how Arabic script could have survived and at the end dominated Syriac since Arabs clearly were Christian influenced.


    See point 2.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3372 - August 22, 2018, 02:04 PM

    Altara,

    Clearly strong own identity for Arabs but that is contested by scholars like Peter Webb (I think).

    Or maybe that identity was "promoted"in a geopolitical strategy? By who is the question. From within the Arab community or by external players?(There are modern analogies)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3373 - August 22, 2018, 02:17 PM

    Quote
    Clearly strong own identity for Arabs but that is contested by scholars


    Yes.
    I think : they are clearly identified as a  different people since ages. What Arabs recounts of themselves is another thing : they have no literature and they recounts it after Islam (see the Webb dissertation) :

    Creating Arab Origins:
    Muslim Constructions of
    al-Jāhiliyya and Arab History

    Quote
    Or maybe that identity was "promoted"in a geopolitical strategy?


    I'm dubious with "promotion". But why not. What other "promotion" of an identity can you present?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3374 - August 22, 2018, 02:55 PM

    Why didn't  Syriac  script just take over the Arabic script since Syriac had the organisation and status Arabic doesnt seem to have in 6 C.

    Wiki dates Garshuni (Arabic written in Syriac script) back to the 7th century, though it doesn’t say on what evidence.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garshuni
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3375 - August 22, 2018, 04:14 PM

    Yeez,
    With "Arabs of the East"I try to express the analogy with "Christians of the East"who were those living in or in proximity with the Sassanide empire. I guess Altara would answer "academia" on this and suggest to do some research   Smiley...

    I like to take it easy and get some free knowledge!

    No..nooooooooooooooooo  ..  I completly disagree to agree with you

    that can not be correct analogy .,  it can not be analogy during the early Islamic times,  neither it can not be analogy even now dear mundi. You know very well that   Christianity is faith and Arabs of the east represents particular ethnicity ...

     And and ..by definition KNOWLEDGE MUST BE FREE.. otherwise it can not be knowledge at all .

    Folks living in Arabia during early Islamic period were NOT called as Arabs .., There were folks with all sorts of ethnicity and with all sorts of  faiths... And and there were mini local kingdoms with-in  the present Saudi Arabia ..  There were Jewish folks, Christians,  Romans and there were Arabian Pagans with local mini kingdoms ..

    here let me put this poem of that time

    Stop, oh my friends,
    let us pause to weep over the remembrance of my beloved.
    Here was her abode on the edge of the sandy desert
    She lives in the sand wind between Dakhool and Howmal.
    On the morning of our separation
    my eyes were blinded
    I see nothing and I can think nothing
    As I lament my love story, my friends stop their camels;
    They shout at me
     "Do not die of grief; bear this sorrow patiently."

    Oh! friends there is no  cure to my sorrow
    gushing tears are of no use
    Yet, there is a hope in the desolation desert
    I can smell her in the sandy winds of desert
    That smell is enough for me for this life
    Until I smell her in heavens


    See the beauty in that poem  mundi..   Imagine  some guy singing that song  in Arabic language in the desolated desert where the wind carries the sound for miles and miles

    There was a beauty in the sands of Arabia and there were poets, songs, sonnets in Arabian sands that enhanced  the beauty  of Arabic language.  But  It   all died and it is all killed by silly faith books and stupid faith stories by faith heads with  allhooooooo akbbbbbaaaaaaaaar noises

    So let us not call those folks of that time as ARABS OF EAST ANALOGY TO  CHRISTIANS OF EAST ....  again sorry to say this but both words are wrong...
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3376 - August 22, 2018, 04:51 PM

    I think : they are clearly identified as a  different people since ages. What Arabs recounts of themselves is another thing : they have no literature and they recounts it after Islam (see the Webb dissertation) :

    Creating Arab Origins:
    Muslim Constructions of
    al-Jāhiliyya and Arab History

    What evidence would you see for the existence of a pre-Islamic Arab identity?
    Would you see all speakers of some form of Arabic as being included within that identity?


    Webb’s dissertation: http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/18551/1/Webb_3618.pdf
    Quote
    Abstract

    The pre-Islamic Arab is a ubiquitous character in classical Arabic literature, but to date, there has been only scant scholarly analysis of his portrayal. In contrast to the dynamic discussions of contemporary Arab identity, the pre-Islamic and early Islamic-era Arabs are commonly treated as a straightforward and culturally homogeneous ethnos. But this simplified ‘original Arab’ archetype that conjures images of Arabian Bedouin has substantial shortcomings. There is almost no trace of ‘Arabs’ in the pre-Islamic historical record, and the Arab ethnos seemingly emerges out of nowhere to take centre-stage in Muslim-era Arabic literature. This thesis examines Arabness and Muslim narratives of pre-Islamic history with the dual aims of (a) better understanding Arab origins; and (b) probing the reasons why classical- era Muslims conceptualised Arab ethnic identity in the ways portrayed in their writings. It demonstrates the likelihood that the pre-Islamic Arabian Peninsula was in fact ‘Arab-less’, and that Islam catalysed the formation of Arab identity as it is familiar today. These Muslim notions of Arabness were then projected backwards in reconstructions of pre-Islamic history (al-Jāhiliyya) to retrospectively unify the pre- Islamic Arabians as all ‘Arabs’. This thesis traces the complex history of Arabness from its stirrings in post-Muslim Conquest Iraq to the fourth/tenth century when urban Muslim scholars crafted the Arab-Bedouin archetype to accompany their reconstructions of al-Jāhiliyya. Over the first four Muslim centuries, Arabness and al- Jāhiliyya were developed in tandem, and this study offers an explanation for how we can interpret early classical-era narratives that invoke the pre-Islamic Arab.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3377 - August 22, 2018, 05:06 PM

    Quote
    What evidence would you see for the existence of a pre-Islamic Arab identity?


    Identity for whom?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3378 - August 22, 2018, 05:09 PM

    An identity as seen by the members of a group rather than outsiders.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3379 - August 22, 2018, 06:00 PM

    Quote
    An identity as seen by the members of a group rather than outsiders.


    Identity can come from outside. Moreover, for the human being it comes from outside. His mother, father, etc.
    The same for a group : he can coming from outside : especially when this group has not developed already  a specific culture
    Webb is not trained as a psychologist or as historian, but as a professor of Arabic :
    Peter Webb studied Arabic at SOAS, University of London and at the University of Damascus.
    My French teachers has never spoke of the French "identity"...
    Talking of "identity" he is talking of things he knows nothing about. I've already posted  here a paper of Philipp Wood about that kind of problem of who is talking of Islam in England...
    For me, Webb is not competent :

    Quote
    There is almost no trace of ‘Arabs’ in the pre-Islamic historical record,


    He plays on words.

    Quote
    and the Arab ethnos seemingly emerges out of nowhere to take centre-stage in Muslim-era Arabic literature


    It emerges from what? The Quran.

    Quote
    This thesis examines Arabness and Muslim narratives of pre-Islamic history with the dual aims of (a) better understanding Arab origins; and (b) probing the reasons why classical- era Muslims conceptualised Arab ethnic identity in the ways portrayed in their writings.

    Why? the Quran.

     
    Quote
    It demonstrates the likelihood that the pre-Islamic Arabian Peninsula was in fact ‘Arab-less’, and that Islam catalysed the formation of Arab identity as it is familiar today.

    No : all the Arabs imported by Constantinople to Palestine from the beginning of the 5th c. were from the Peninsula.
    Yes Islam : but only the Quran.

     
    Quote
    These Muslim notions of Arabness were then projected backwards in reconstructions of pre-Islamic history (al-Jāhiliyya) to retrospectively unify the pre- Islamic Arabians as all ‘Arabs’.


    Yes, but it does not mean that before there was no Arabness. Not expressed because there was no tools to do it.

    Then your question was :
    Quote
    What evidence would you see for the existence of a pre-Islamic Arab identity?
    Would you see all speakers of some form of Arabic as being included within that identity?


    1/Therefore, there is no evidence.
    2/ Possible.

    The identity given to the Arabs by the Quran corresponds to the one we can observe to be given to them by Christians and Jews before it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3380 - August 22, 2018, 08:42 PM

    Identity can come from outside. Moreover, for the human being it comes from outside. His mother, father, etc

    ""just for time being,  let me hide those words of identity of a  baby  human or any other evolved species  coming  from outside...... such as His mother, father, social ..political structures...... etc""............

    but think about identity of Islam which means  "Muhammad/Prophet of Islam/Quran/hadith/sunnah " coming from outside of Arabia ..

     I claim all of them......   the identity of Islam ....  came from outside of Arabian peninsula  that you see in this picture in brownish yellow color  


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3381 - August 23, 2018, 07:39 AM

    Question was by Mundi  :

    Quote
    Altara, Marc,

    Trying to follow here... Am I right that I summarize your positions that "the Arabs of the East" had a much more prominent role in development of Arabic and the Quran than generally thought?

    Would make sense and explain why Arabic script was suddenly so promoted to become dominant. It was used in the political strategy of the Sassanides?


    Response from Marc :

    I can only say for sure (and according to me) at this stage that :

    - the arabs conquest of the east had nothing to do with a prophet coming from the hedjaz,
    - the people who got the upper hand among the arabs are not the ones from who the Quran came from.  


    1/ Of course. And in the West ? (The solution is simple...)
    2/Idem.

    Then : you think this since when and because of what?
    Where comes from the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3382 - August 23, 2018, 08:50 AM

    The new trend of Quranic Studies :

    Historical-critical method of Qur'anic interpretation. Organised by Emilio González Ferrín, Universidad de Sevilla.
    July 17th, 2018
    2:30 p.m. - 4:30 p.m.
    Room: 108 Grados
    Chair: Emilio González Ferrín, Universidad de Sevilla.
    Guillaume Dye, Université Libre de Bruxelles: 'The Qur'an as a layered text'.
    Emilio González Ferrín, Universidad De Sevilla: '1 + 1 + n = 1. Diverse authorship in the Qur'an'.
    Carlos Segovia, Saint Louis University - Madrid Campus: 'How should we read the Qur'an'.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3383 - August 23, 2018, 12:15 PM

    Question was by Mundi  :

    Response from Marc :

    1/ Of course. And in the West ? (The solution is simple...)


    1) Same as in the east but I haven't laid down the link between east and west conquest. Were they led by separate groups who clashed together later (the Muawiya- Ali war) or the same group led the way ? I favor the 1st option right now but I am working on it so my opinion can change.

    Quote
    2/Idem.


    Meaning you agree with my statement on this one ?

    Quote
    Then : you think this since when and because of what?
    Where comes from the Quran?


    My thinking on this is quite recent as I was siding with Inarah 100% before. But one cannot ignore the facts so :

    - No official islamic motto anywhere until 684,
    - when islam pops up, or rather when the Mhmd motto pops up, it does come from the east, from the side that will loose the war (Ibn Zubair),
    - were the Mhmd motto and the Quran even linked together ? That is not so sure,

    So I think that from Abd al Malik, the arabs rulers took over the Mhmd motto and Quran and Islam was born. We need to scrutinize more the sources narrating the Ibn Zubair califate and his fall vs Abd al Malik.

    Now, I have one big issue and that is the Sebeos chronicle mentionning Muhammad because he shouldn't show up in earlier sources.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3384 - August 23, 2018, 12:57 PM

    Quote
    Meaning you agree with my statement on this one ? ( the people who got the upper hand among the arabs are not the ones from who the Quran came from.)


    Yes. They have nothing to see with Pilgrimage/Kaba/Zem Zem/Mecca/Medina/Khalid b. Walid/Abu Bakr (in the cave !) Companion of the Prophet, etc.,  and the rest : because there is not sources before Islam to corroborate these affirmations. End of story (for me, just by this fact.)
    But (for me again...) in 637 they build something in Jerusalem.
    It is probably what happened. Arculf sees it in 660. What between those dates could have been building a "something" in Jerusalem in 660 as Arculf seen it?  I do not know... Then I consider that the 637 testimony is probably what happened.

    Quote
    - the arabs conquest of the east had nothing to do with a prophet coming from the hedjaz, --- And the West ? ---Were they led by separate groups who clashed together later (the Muawiya- Ali war) or the same group led the way


    Work on the Nasrid East you should see.

    Quote
    My thinking on this is quite recent as I was siding with Inarah 100% before.


    Never siding 100% to something of someone else. Side on you brain. I did not mean that Inarah has to be set aside. Not at all. I mean that you can read but there is not only Inarah in the field.

    Quote
    when islam pops up, or rather when the Mhmd motto pops up, it does come from the east, from the side that will loose the war (Ibn Zubair),


    Of course : the East.

    Quote
    So I think that from Abd al Malik, the arabs rulers took over the Mhmd motto and Quran and Islam was born. We need to scrutinize more the sources narrating the Ibn Zubair califate and his fall vs Abd al Malik.


    Of course, for me it's done.

    Quote
    Now, I have one big issue and that is the Sebeos chronicle mentionning Muhammad because he shouldn't show up in earlier sources.


    I'm not sure to understand. Can you elaborate?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3385 - August 23, 2018, 01:32 PM

    Quote
    Quote
    So I think that from Abd al Malik, the arabs rulers took over the Mhmd motto and Quran and Islam was born. We need to scrutinize more the sources narrating the Ibn Zubair califate and his fall vs Abd al Malik.


    Of course, for me it's done.


    So you also included the Mukhtar al-Thaqafi rebellion in your review of the sources related to Ibn Zubair califate ?


    Quote
    Quote
    Now, I have one big issue and that is the Sebeos chronicle mentionning Muhammad because he shouldn't show up in earlier sources.


    I'm not sure to understand. Can you elaborate?


    My thinking is that there was no prophet, but having a Mahmet/Mhmt mentionned in Sebeos or Thomas the Presbyter does create an issue. I know that Nevo/Koren/Inarah did just brush those writings aside claiming later addition once the Mhmd stories started circulating. I need to come up with a better rationale or review my assumptions on this so called prophet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3386 - August 23, 2018, 02:06 PM

    Quote
    So you also included the Mukhtar al-Thaqafi rebellion in your review of the sources related to Ibn Zubair califate ?


    I do not think that this rebellion is very important to the topic.

    Quote
    My thinking is that there was no prophet, but having a Mahmet/Mhmt mentionned in Sebeos or Thomas the Presbyter does create an issue. I know that Nevo/Koren/Inarah did just brush those writings aside claiming later addition once the Mhmd stories started circulating. I need to come up with a better rationale or review my assumptions on this so called prophet.


    There is one place where the "prophet" is.
    Do you see where?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3387 - August 23, 2018, 02:16 PM

    Why Hārūt, why Mārūt, why Hārūt and Mārūt? Some simple questions on a long-standing problem, and the search of some not-so-sectarian milieu TO BE PUBLISHED
    https://www.academia.edu/37279799/Why_H%C4%81r%C5%ABt_why_M%C4%81r%C5%ABt_why_H%C4%81r%C5%ABt_and_M%C4%81r%C5%ABt_Some_simple_questions_on_a_long-standing_problem_and_the_search_of_some_not-so-sectarian_milieu_TO_BE_PUBLISHED
    Only abstract.

    Why Hārūt, why Mārūt, why Hārūt and Mārūt?
    Some simple questions on a long-standing problem, and the search of some not-so-sectarian milieu
    Everyone who is involved in Qur’anic studies from an Iranian perspective will sooner or later encounter the troublesome issue of Hārūt and Mārūt’s presence in the Q 2:2122. Until now, a lot of detailed works have been produced dealing with two questions: 1) the Jewish tales, as sources recomposed in the verse, 2) numerous attempts to explain it from later muslim exegesis and mythology.
    The present paper cannot claim to offer something new on that side. It will focus first on these two intruders, not on the literary context, only on their names and identities, all Iranian of course, and on some precise cultural milieu, their hypothetical cradle. And at the end, the question will be: why these two Mazdaean entities – Avestic Hauruuatāt, Amərətāt – were involved in a short, Jewish-like story then included in a famous Arab(ic) book? To tell the truth, there is something peculiar in this complicated situation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3388 - August 23, 2018, 02:33 PM

    I do not think that this rebellion is very important to the topic.



    I'd like to investigate because one can only notice that :
    - this Mukhtar is labelled a prophet by later non arab sources,
    - in arab sources, this prophethood label isn't mentionned but he is said to lead a rebellion in the name of one of Ali's son who will be later seen as the Mahdi,
    - Ibn Zubair as well as Abd al Malik will later try to win this son of Ali to their side,
    - all this happens at the same time as Ibn Zubair minths the 1st coin with the Muhammad rassul Allah motto,

    Maybe this is just coincidence but I cannot believe everything was made from scratch ; there must be some kind of historic truth somewhere behind the islamic tradition.

    Quote
    There is one place where the "prophet" is.
    Do you see where?


    I don't understand your question ; what do you mean by "one place where " ? Is this a physcal place ? Are you referring to a dedicated tradition ? By prophet, you mean prophet in general or the prophet Mhmt ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3389 - August 23, 2018, 03:28 PM

    Quote
    Maybe this is just coincidence but I cannot believe everything was made from scratch ; there must be some kind of historic truth somewhere behind the islamic tradition.


    There is  a "must" in religion you think?


    Quote
    My thinking is that there was no prophet, but having a Mahmet/Mhmt mentionned in Sebeos or Thomas the Presbyter does create an issue. I need to come up with a better rationale or review my assumptions on this so called prophet.


    What issue exactly?

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