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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1503227 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3390 - August 23, 2018, 05:06 PM

    Quote
    There is  a "must" in religion you think?


    I do think people take existing materials and alter them but, to make 100% from nothing, not likely in my opinion.

    Quote
    What issue exactly?

    Mhmt mentionned in earlier sources doesn't tie up with my preliminary assumption that he didn't exist, not even as an historical figure who could have been a preacher, a warrior or a king. There might have been different people from whom Ibn Ishaq and others derived the life of Muhammad though. The explanation that his name is a later addition to earlier sources doesn't satisfy me so I still have work to do on this one.


    You didn't explain what you mean by "where the prophet is ".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3391 - August 23, 2018, 06:18 PM

    (I'll come back after for the rest of your post.)
    Quote
    Mhmt mentioned in earlier sources doesn't tie up with my preliminary assumption that he didn't exist,


    Sebeos have seen Mhmt then?



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3392 - August 23, 2018, 06:21 PM

    Jay Smith  and the readings many examples in presentation...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lqQBVtUWvo
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3393 - August 23, 2018, 06:55 PM

    This guy is so dishonest. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3394 - August 23, 2018, 06:55 PM

    Did not follow the discussion carefully. So, what was it? The hijrah, that is?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3395 - August 23, 2018, 06:57 PM

    Magrayye,

    About Jay Smith and his different Qurans: Is he wrong here?Are his examples fake?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3396 - August 23, 2018, 07:00 PM

    This guy is so dishonest. 


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3397 - August 23, 2018, 07:01 PM

    Magrayye,

    About Jay Smith and his different Qurans: Is he wrong here?Are his examples fake?


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3398 - August 23, 2018, 07:02 PM

    Did not follow the discussion carefully. So, what was it? The hijrah, that is?

    Read my conversation with Marc one or 2 pages back.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3399 - August 23, 2018, 07:15 PM

    Marc and Altara,

    It would be nice just to give a resumé of your positions. It is hard to follow. Unless you guys don't want any input...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3400 - August 23, 2018, 07:21 PM

    Mundi, it is one conversation with me and Marc ; very easy to follow  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3401 - August 23, 2018, 07:59 PM

    Quote

    I am reading those words again  and again  Cheesy  Mahgraye said samething earlier .,  So who is dishonest   dear Mahgraye??  Jay Smith  or the other guy with towel on his head THE Al Fadi,?

    And dear Altara I could agree with  Mahgraye that  SOME TIMES Jay Smith  is dishonest.,  specially when he speaks about Christianity and holy grail   ....HOOOOOLY SPIIIIRIT........




    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3402 - August 23, 2018, 08:03 PM

    I'm speaking about the qiraat. The rest, it is not my subject  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3403 - August 23, 2018, 08:09 PM

    (I'll come back after for the rest of your post.)
    Sebeos have seen Mhmt then?


    No he never did but he was told about him if we think this is a 7th century testimony so this means there were stories circulating about Mhmt as soon as the 7th century and this doesn't tie up with my current thoughts on the non existence of Muhammad. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3404 - August 23, 2018, 08:14 PM

    Quote
    ............. Mhmt mentionned in earlier sources doesn't tie up with my preliminary assumption that he didn't exist, not even as an historical figure who could have been a preacher, a warrior or a king. .................

      

    Sebeos have seen Mhmt then?


     
    Sebeos  That Armenian historian is back in action   but I don't see that word in Marc S's post  dear  Altara.,

    May be  that Mhmt of Marc S's post is from  different historian of that time .. So I wonder  when did this "Mhmt" (((sounds like m&m) ))  became Prophet Muhammad??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3405 - August 23, 2018, 08:16 PM

    No he never did but he was told about him if we think this is a 7th century testimony so this means there were stories circulating about Mhmt as soon as the 7th century and this doesn't tie up with my current thoughts on the non existence of Muhammad. 

     well stories on Muhammad or that word "Muhammad" may be circulating even before the birth of Islam in some Arabic poems/songs/sonnets and stories  dear Marc...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3406 - August 23, 2018, 08:34 PM

    No he never did but he was told about him if we think this is a 7th century testimony so this means there were stories circulating about Mhmt as soon as the 7th century and this doesn't tie up with my current thoughts on the non existence of Muhammad. 


    How does it not  tie up with your "current thoughts on the non existence of Muhammad." ? 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3407 - August 23, 2018, 08:48 PM

    The sources speak of Muhammad as an actual military leader, not some ghost. Whether he was considered alive or not is irrelevant. They sources still portray him as a historical figure.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3408 - August 23, 2018, 08:49 PM

    We can be sure that Muhammad was known as God's Messenger by the year 690. Maybe even earleir, but certaily around 690
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3409 - August 23, 2018, 08:51 PM

    Everyone knows that Jay Smith is a ignoramus and a dishonest one at that. Same goes for his little sidekick Al Fadi. They have been caught on numerous occasions. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3410 - August 23, 2018, 09:08 PM

    How does it not  tie up with your "current thoughts on the non existence of Muhammad." ? 


    My thoughts are :

    - the Muhammad of islam never existed, even as a king, a tribal chief, a warrior or a preacher,
    - the Muhammad of islam was invented under the abbassids,
    - the Muhammad mentionned on a coin around Bishapur in 684 is not the Muhammad of islam, nor he is Jesus,

    Therefore, stories about a Muhammad in the 7th century, even at the end of it, are going against my assumptions.

    What is your take on this Altara ? I feel you have a solution to go around it but , at the same time, we might not agree on when the Muahhamd of islam did appear so your solution might not solve my issue.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3411 - August 23, 2018, 09:10 PM

    Why does it have to contradict your assumptions? The Muhammad of the sira does not need to have existed in order from him to have existed or that there were stories about him early on.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3412 - August 23, 2018, 09:11 PM

    well stories on Muhammad or that word "Muhammad" may be circulating even before the birth of Islam in some Arabic poems/songs/sonnets and stories  dear Marc...


    You need to elaborate on your thoughts here Yeezevee. Any sources to bakc-up what you are suggesting ? The thing is I do understand that word could have existed before but here I mean the word applied on a man, unless this is a kind of alteration of John 1:1.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3413 - August 23, 2018, 09:21 PM

    Why does it have to contradict your assumptions? The Muhammad of the sira does not need to have existed in order from him to have existed or that there were stories about him early on.


    Because for me he never existed nor as a tribal chief, a king, a warrior or a preacher.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3414 - August 23, 2018, 09:22 PM

    You can also simply dismiss these sources as others do.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3415 - August 23, 2018, 09:34 PM

    The sources speak of Muhammad as an actual military leader, not some ghost. Whether he was considered alive or not is irrelevant. They sources still portray him as a historical figure.


    We have already discussed, at length, about this topic, dear Mahgraye. It is granted, and you know what are my arguments, that for me, the Muslim narrative is false (even if Muslim believe in it). There's no Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem, etc., before Islam as described by the 8 and 9th sources. It is scientifically false. I told also that it was improbable that the "story" has taken place elsewhere because, in late Antiquity people "talk of extraordinary event" and there is nothing.  From those point, there is not "prophet" responsible of the Quran.
    Not only this, but contrary to what the first Muslims historiographers affirm (Al Azdi, end of 8th c.) it is not the Quran and the "prophet"  and his friends (of the narrative) the responsibles of the conquest as he believes (and as believes all the planet since all the planet believes in the narrative...) it is all we have discussed in detail with Marc from 2 pages.
    There is no need of the Muslim narrative to explain the conquest. It is perfectly explainable without it. Sources are there, suffice to read it.  Why scholars did not did it since two centuries? Because they believed, in good faith, to the Muslims narratives. They had no reason to doubt. Now with our knowledge of the time, it is more and more difficult to continue to "believe" like the Muslims. It is, in fact, impossible. And all scholars of Early Islam (of good faith...) know that as well.
    I'm sorry for you dear Mahgraye. I know that you are  a man of good faith. But the truth (for me...) comes first.
    Where does the book come from, then? It is the real question. Of course I have a response (mine of course...) : clear, logic, historically grounded. This is not the place to say it here, as you can understand it.
    So I won't discuss again about points I have already, at length, discussed. Doctrina Jacobi "prophet" is not the prophet described by the Quran and the 8 and 9th c. Sebeos "prophet" is narrative already elaborated about him, narrative taken from the only possible source. And you know what it is.
    As I know what you are , ( a Muslim) I considered important to say this before closing theses topic as far as I am concerned.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3416 - August 23, 2018, 09:46 PM

    My thoughts are :

    - the Muhammad of islam never existed, even as a king, a tribal chief, a warrior or a preacher,
    - the Muhammad of islam was invented under the abbassids,
    - the Muhammad mentionned on a coin around Bishapur in 684 is not the Muhammad of islam, nor he is Jesus,

    Therefore, stories about a Muhammad in the 7th century, even at the end of it, are going against my assumptions.

    What is your take on this Altara ? I feel you have a solution to go around it but , at the same time, we might not agree on when the Muahhamd of islam did appear so your solution might not solve my issue.


    Ok, I'll try to be clear.
    1/ Yes
    2/ Nope. In my opinion this affirmation is not true. That is why you do not understand why Sebeos (et al.) talk of him : it does not corresponds to the abassids time.
    3/ I think it is the Muhammad mentioned in one place.
    4/ Of course Jesus has nothing to see with this figure.

    The Bishapur coin is important as he presents a figure as an expression "Muhammad rasul Allah" that we found in one place.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3417 - August 23, 2018, 09:58 PM

    You can also simply dismiss these sources as others do.


    Too easy, and I am not satisfied with that approach so I either need to dig deeper into it or amend my assumptions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3418 - August 23, 2018, 10:07 PM

    3/ I think it is the Muhammad mentioned in one place.

    The Bishapur coin is important as he presents a figure as an expression "Muhammad rasul Allah" that we found in one place.



    I guess you won't say what that place is.


    Quote
    2/ Nope. In my opinion this affirmation is not true. That is why you do not understand why Sebeos (et al.) talk of him : it does not corresponds to the abassids time.


    Yes that is what the Sebeos writings seem to imply but I cannot come to terms to the fact that, to start creating stories about this Mhmt, you need to have a better state organisation that Abd al Malik didn't have.

    I also still struggle about the relationship between that coin minted in Bishapur, Muhammad rassoul Allah and Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya aka the Mahdi.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3419 - August 23, 2018, 10:17 PM

    Quote
    I guess you won't say what that place is.


    What is a place?
    Quote
    Muhammad rassoul Allah and Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya aka the Mahdi.

     
    1/coin minted in Bishapur is contemporary.
    2/This stuff is recounted in the 9th c.

    Then, what is scientifically established?
    The coin. Not the story of "Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya aka the Mahdi"
    Quote
    "but I cannot come to terms to the fact that, to start creating stories about this Mhmt, you need to have a better state organisation that Abd al Malik didn't have. "


    The writers of the Gospels had a state?
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