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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4470 - October 02, 2018, 09:02 PM

    Yes, contrary to what people think she was a great believer.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4471 - October 02, 2018, 09:07 PM

    Like I said, because of the islamic tradition, people do think it talks about Muhammad but we don't know.

    that  response  surprised me   dear  Marc S., and  correct me if i got it wrong.,

     So you also think that there was NO Muhammad in Islam and that character is only Islamic tradition/Islamic story??

    And  why faculty members from universities in west fell for Islamic tradition??

     you must have read this article  Dated And Datable Texts Mentioning Prophet Muḥammad ﷺ From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE

    otherwise please read it...

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4472 - October 02, 2018, 09:47 PM

    Each Friday and Sunday Jews and Christians talk about Jesus and Moses. They never saw them, except in their respective texts. All the texts of Islamic Awareness proves nothing about the existence of "Muhammad". Especially that nobody on the Arab side at the same time left none documents (archaeological, epigraphic or scribal) attesting of their life on the  side of the "prophet" in the battle of Badr. I consider that the knowledge of "Muhammad" that these texts attest, comes from Arabs who knew the Quranic texts (not in codex) circulating among them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4473 - October 02, 2018, 09:53 PM

    Dear Yeezevee, I know there are a lot of texts that are dated very early and that do mention Muhammad.

    Issue is he is nowhere to be found in arabs sources from the 7th century until a coin is minted in 685 in Irak. If he had been such a great figure that inspired/led those arab conquests, then this silence is weird, all the more weird if he also was the bringer of a religious book.

    Therefore, we must take non muslim sources that do mention him with a grain of salt. Are they really from the dates scholars think/pretend they are ? Were additions made to the text later on by people who heard stories decades later about Muhammad and wanted to correct documents they had as they thought those documents didn't reflect the truth ? These are all questions we need  to answer.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4474 - October 02, 2018, 10:00 PM

    I consider that the knowledge of "Muhammad" that these texts attest, comes from Arabs who knew the Quranic texts (not in codex) circulating among them.


    Maybe I misunderstand you but I don't see how arabs in the 7th century could believe in someone that they never saw while there were people who had allegedly known him ? Also, what I can't understand with your theory is that this doesn't explain the Muhammad of Sebeos, nor the prophet coming from the saracens unless you also think it is not Muhammad.

    By not in the Codex, you mean the ahadith/sira narratives ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4475 - October 02, 2018, 10:22 PM

    Quote
    Maybe I misunderstand you but I don't see how arabs in the 7th century could believe in someone that they never saw while there were people who had allegedly known him ?


    I never say that these Arabs "believed" something. I say that these Arabs talks that there was an Arabic leader/prophet/preacher whatever; that they call Muhammad/Mamet, etc. That's all.

    Quote
    Also, what I can't understand with your theory is that this doesn't explain the Muhammad of Sebeos


    You know that there is a problem with the dating of Sebeos... It shows a story of Muhammad relatively developed that we see in the middle of the 8th c and not before. This incertitude about the datation of Sebeos depend the way you can  appreciate the text relatively to its supposed datation.

    Quote
    nor the prophet coming from the saracens unless you also think it is not Muhammad.


    For me the concept of a "prophet" whom the Arabs are talking about in the 7th c. is linked with the existence of Quranic texts known by them. They know him only by those texts like today Jews and Christian know Jesus and Moses by their texts and speak of them everyday. They never states that they know/see/lived with him. They say a minimum drawn from Quranic texts good or bad understood : prophet/preacher/king, etc.

    Quote
    By not in the Codex, you mean the ahadith/sira narratives ?


    Nope. I mean Quranic texts as not in a codex form, but separated texts which will be "codexified" as one book, later with Abd al Malik.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4476 - October 03, 2018, 12:14 AM

    Coins do not document history.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4477 - October 03, 2018, 12:15 AM

    Antoine Borrut - Vanishing Syria: Periodization and Power in Early Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/7033352/Vanishing_Syria_Periodization_and_Power_in_Early_Islam
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4478 - October 03, 2018, 07:32 AM

    In the video earlier posted by Altara, Hoyland problematized about the lack of contemporary Arab sources. Should you look to contemporary non-Arabic sources or the Islamic traditions that are 210 years later?
    We know there was written a biography of Muhammad in the 8th century, but it's been lost/ destroyed.
    Hoyland says that much of the contemporary sources are of the wrong kind. It's tax demands, army requisition notes, prayers and coin legends.
    Do any you know why there aren't more sources? The Arabs at that point was a superpower and would surely have means of document important information. Are the theories mostly that sources were destroyed because it didn't fit the later narratives?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4479 - October 03, 2018, 10:37 AM

    Quote
    why there aren't more sources?


    There is no need for them to write about their history.Simply because they have no history to recount since there is no Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
    Quote
    The Arabs at that point was a superpower and would surely have means of document important information.


    They have no history to recount since there is no Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4480 - October 03, 2018, 11:02 AM

    Hoyland says that much of the contemporary sources are of the wrong kind. It's tax demands, army requisition notes, prayers and coin legends.
    Do any you know why there aren't more sources? The Arabs at that point was a superpower and would surely have means of document important information. Are the theories mostly that sources were destroyed because it didn't fit the later narratives?


    Arabs didn't minth their own money when Byzantium and Persia were ruling.
    Unlike today, you didn't have newspapers or books nor computer.
    Paper was expensive and a luxury. Therefore, it is not a surprise that we first find administrative documents as the primary source of history.
    Most of the population was illiterate ; this is also why most of the chronicles come from monks.
    One of the reasons you find a lot of manuscripts in Egypt is because its climate is good to keep paper in good conditions across ages. You didn't have that across all geographical areas.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4481 - October 03, 2018, 12:34 PM

    Under the Rashidun caliphs, 632-661A.D., the Arab empire was enormous. A kind of strange that these people didn't leave more information. The first caliphs, we don't know if they even existed, because they didn't leave any archeological evidence. But the later ones definitely lived.
    Hoyland writes that it's hard to know how the first Arab conquerors were thinking because they didn't leave much information. Coins show a developing religion with Christian symbols in the beginning. Then the picture of Abd al-Malik. After that the shahada.
    Abd al-Malik obviously had a strong religious message, but why didn't he leave more information? The writings on the wall on the Dome of the Rock, was not enough. He knew that paper vanished and he had the means of writing on parchment.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4482 - October 03, 2018, 02:50 PM

    Under the Rashidun caliphs, 632-661A.D., the Arab empire was enormous. A kind of strange that these people didn't leave more information. The first caliphs, we don't know if they even existed, because they didn't leave any archeological evidence. But the later ones definitely lived.

    where did you get that from dear Asbjoern1958??

    Here is the story of Umayyad Caliphate:

    ********************************************************************************


    Capitals   
     (661–744)                  Damascus

    (744–750)                   Harran

    Common languages"

    Classical Arabic (official) – Coptic, Greek, Latin, Persian (official in certain regions until the reign of Abd al-Malik) – Aramaic, Armenian, Berber languages, African Romance, Mozarabic, Sindhi, Georgian, Prakrit


    Religion   Sunni Islam
    Government:    Caliphate

    Caliphs
       
    • 661–680           Muawiya I
    • 680–683            Yazid I
    • 683-684             Muawiya II

    History   

    Started by:  • Muawiya I becomes Caliph   estimated from 660 to 665

    Ended by:  • Defeat and death of Marwan II by the Abbasids  year 750

    Area in the year 720:         11,100,000[1] km2
    Population:      33,000,000[2]
    Currency:   Gold dinar and dirham

     ******************************************************************************

    that story is more or less well established with some  doubts and  problem using Archaeology...and other non Islamic sources....

    Now you tell me the story of Rashidun caliphs,  and tell me who wrote that and when??  and how to authenticate it....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4483 - October 03, 2018, 03:18 PM

    Antoine Borrut - Vanishing Syria: Periodization and Power in Early Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/7033352/Vanishing_Syria_Periodization_and_Power_in_Early_Islam


    Borrut :
    Quote
    This article argues that the agreed-upon periodization of early Islam is an Abbasid-era construct that became a binding framework for later generations of historians down to modern times.


    Of course.

    Quote
    It also contends that scholars have tended to ignore the fact that this periodization was first and foremost an Abbasid claim to power.


    Of course.


    Quote
    It investigates the Abbasid-era construction of the past and demonstrates that alternative periodizations were used prior to these massive efforts to enclose the past into a rigid structure, and so it sheds light on forgotten alternative pasts.


    I'm not sure that Borrut have understand all. But as an academic, he cannot tell what he wants.

    Quote
    This disinterest is perhaps best exemplified by the fact that a history of (early) Islamic time has yet to be written. The question of the introduction of the Islamic (hijri) calendar, has to date received only tangential attention


    Cf. Pourshariati about the Arab/Sassanian war in Iraq.

    Quote
    We are accustomed to think in terms of Jāhiliyya, Prophetic
    period, Rāshidūn era, Umayyad mulk, and Abbasid dawla, not to mention several
    fitnas along the way. But such periodizations would certainly be quite surprising
    if not largely unintelligible to most of the actors of early Islam. What were, for instance, the changing meanings granted to the pre-Islamic past under the label of Jāhiliyya?Would all of their contemporaries have considered ʿUthmān or ʿAlī “rightly guided,” as once asked by Morony?Was Ibn al-Zubayr a mere rebeland ʿAbd al-Malik the sole legitimate caliph, a view recently challenged by Chase Robinson?(Robinson, ʿAbd al-Malik, 31–48.)

    The Emperor's New Clothes...

    Quote
    Indeed, the place granted to Syria in Islamic narrative sources, or perhaps, more aptly, the oblivion of the former Umayyad heartland of power, is largely explained by the periodization imposed onto Islamic history. The pre-Islamic past and theProphetic period are firmly anchored – if not locked – in the Arabian Peninsula,³³while the successful and cosmopolitan Islamic Empire of the classical age was centered on Baghdad, on Iraq, and to a large extent on Iran as well – that is, looking East and not West.


    Yes.
    Quote
    I have argued elsewhere that this dichotomy between Umayyad Syria and
    Abbasid Iraq, between white and black if you will, was an Abbasid-era construct
    and a deliberate attempt to lock memories into clearly delimited and antagonistic
    spaces. The links between periodization and space noted above are here
    quite obvious. Umayyad and Abbasid histories were, in other words, rewritten at
    the mirror of the Euphrates, thus depriving us of a global understanding of the
    dynamics of power of both dynasties at the scale of the Empire


    It's more simple than that.

    Quote
    The  historiographical vulgate that resulted from these efforts is unmistakably Iraq-centered.The consequences of this remark are extremely important for approaching Syrian history, and they largely explain why Syria occupies such limited space in mainstream chronicles. It is not just a question of geography and space but first and foremost a question of periodization. Restricted to its Umayyad past, Syria had to vanish from the scene with the demise of the first dynasty of Islam to make room  for the Abbasids who had their own claims to make. Forgetting Syria was indeedcritical for the new masters of Baghdad, and the second dynasty of Islam thus carefully erased its Syrian roots in Ḥumayma (in modern-day Jordan), where the family had been settled for decades under the Umayyads, while stressing their links to Iraq and Khurāsān.³⁸( Borrut, Entre mémoire et pouvoir, 210–17.)


    Quote
    It is impossible to fully discuss here the reasons explaining why this rewriting of the past was widely accepted,


    It is yet very simple (there is no plot). But Borrut is still stuck to the main issue.










  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4484 - October 03, 2018, 03:30 PM


    Paper was expensive and a luxury
    One of the reasons you find a lot of manuscripts in Egypt is because its climate is good to keep paper in good conditions across ages. You didn't have that across all geographical areas.




    Papyri , not paper (which was still not invented).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4485 - October 03, 2018, 03:54 PM

    Marc S  wrote EVERYTHING EXCEPT ANSWERING MY QUESTION..   lol ..So I am going to ask again hiding his post
    Dear Yeezevee, I know
     there are a lot of texts that are dated very early and that do mention Muhammad. 

    Issue is he is nowhere to be found in arabs sources from the 7th century until a coin is minted in 685 in Irak. If he had been such a great figure that inspired/led those arab conquests, then this silence is weird, all the more weird if he also was the bringer of a religious book.

    Therefore, we must take non muslim sources that do mention him with a grain of salt. Are they really from the dates scholars think/pretend they are ? Were additions made to the text later on by people who heard stories decades later about Muhammad and wanted to correct documents they had as they thought those documents didn't reflect the truth ? These are all questions we need  to answer.

    So question is .. let me paste the question post again
    that  response  surprised me   dear  Marc S., and  correct me if i got it wrong.,

     So you also think that there was NO Muhammad in Islam and that character is only Islamic tradition/Islamic story?? ..

      So answer me Marc S..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4486 - October 03, 2018, 04:10 PM

    Quote
    Arabs didn't mint  their own money when Byzantium and Persia were ruling.
    Unlike today, you didn't have newspapers or books nor computer.
    Paper was expensive and a luxury.

    Papyri , not paper (which was still not invented).


    On those words the only alternate route to extract and  write ancient history that is older than Islam is Archaeological left out  Monuments, rock paintings, pottery , and some written statements on stones  or wood ..

    So question to you all .... let us take this wiki link  as an example  and some well known ancient Philosophers from it such as....  Socrates (469 – 399 BCE) ., Plato (428 – 347 BCE)  or some other guys ( THERE ARE MANY) in that link from different cultures..

    Question is.,   how do we know who wrote what? what they wrote without having any proof such as   some written statements on stones  or wood or papyrus??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4487 - October 03, 2018, 04:50 PM

    Papyri , not paper (which was still not invented).


    I know but was too lazy to correct my post.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4488 - October 03, 2018, 04:58 PM

    Marc S  wrote EVERYTHING EXCEPT ANSWERING MY QUESTION..   lol ..So I am going to ask again hiding his post So question is .. let me paste the question post again   So answer me Marc S..


    For the Muhammad that was supposed to lead the arab troops from out of the desert and mentionned in different non muslim sources, I already replied to the best of my knowledge so far. At this stage, he never existed for me, not even as an historical figure. He is not to be mistaken however with the Muhammad showing up on a coin in Bishapur in 685 (this is here a different story).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4489 - October 03, 2018, 05:25 PM

    Quote
    At this stage, he never existed for me, not even as an historical figure. He is not to be mistaken however with the Muhammad showing up on a coin in Bishapur in 685 (this is here a different story).


    1/ Yes. There was no Mecca/Medina/Kaba. Therefore no "prophet" producing the Quranic text.The "conquest" have nothing to see with them (Quran/"prophet").
    2/ As for the figure "Jesus" on coins  which proceed from the Gospels since the Roman Empire is Christianized , the mention of the figure "Muhammad rasul Allah" on a coin in Bishapur in 685 proceeds in the same way from the Quranic texts  ("Muhammad  being interpolated/added or genuine, whatever) which were circulating at that time  and not from an existing person implied in the struggle between Arabs championed  by Zubayr. As Muhammad al  Hanafiyya is never   (I repeat) never mentioned in any external or internal (epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal) documents as "rasul Allah".
    Of course, if it would have been the case, I would have accepted it without any problems. Because it would have been since the beginning taken for granted since sourced.
    For now, it is conjecture not sourced (pleonasm...) . And therefore cannot be a postulate to go from to understand where comes from the Quranic texts (which is my only topic here). It seems to me (very) impossible to build something on conjecture, like people who pretend to a scholarly way (Dequin or you). As long as Inarah will accept to publish in the middle of  serious scholarly work they publish, people (Dequin, etc) who write nonsense, it will be not taken seriously by the "official" scholarship. Building historical reasoning on conjecture is not  a scholarly method, it is a method for amateurs, writers, novelists, etc. which are very respectable as works in their respective fields. Not scholars .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4490 - October 03, 2018, 09:40 PM

    Having quickly read through the latest posts, I am not sure where to start (again). Probably won't write rebuttals. How about I ask a question: what does it take to convince the mythicists here that there existed a historical Muhammad?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4491 - October 03, 2018, 10:59 PM

    Quote
    what does it take to convince the mythicists here that there existed a historical Muhammad?


    Unfortunately you cannot. I want to say that, without doubt like Marc, I  did not questioned the existence Muhammad for many years. Even if I was not so far from the stuff. It would have seemed stupid/strange/bizarre to me. He has done the jihad!!! al jihad fi sabil l Lhah!!!
    But. When I entered into it more seriously it appeared to me that there was a really big issue considering (really) seriously the sources regarding Mecca/Medina/Kaba and that putting aside his existence as the producer of the Quranic text in Mecca/Medina/Kaba  (or north, south, etc) allowed responses that the Muslim narrative about the origin of the Quran locked to their theological stuff obliging people to naturally believe in the general historical frame they presented.
    But this "historical" frame is inexact. Muslims believes in historical "lies" which explain to them the reason of the existence of the Quranic texts. However no Mecca/Medina/Kaba. No north, south, east, west. No. At length in this forum I've already said why it is (very) improbable in Late Antiquity. No allusion nowhere, etc. Very improbable, 20 years speaking to the Biblical God, and nobody knows it. Why? because there was no people speaking to the Biblical God during 20 years.
    Many years I have not questioned the existence Muhammad. I was wrong.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4492 - October 03, 2018, 11:05 PM

    But what would it take for you to change your mind? A contemporary source? Keep in mind, I am here only talking about the historical Muhammad. Simply asserting that one cannot is arguing against an unfalsifiable position.

    My understanding of your position is that Muhammad historicity is tied to the historicity of Mecca. Let us assume that we found evidence that the city actually existed, does that increase the probability that Muhammad also existed?

    One last thing: am I justified in taking your paragraph as a succinct summary as to why you don't think Muhammad existed?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4493 - October 04, 2018, 12:22 AM

    Quote
    But what would it take for you to change your mind?


    Sources.

    Quote
    Simply asserting that one cannot is arguing against an unfalsifiable position.


    I'm not sure to understand...

    Quote
    My understanding of your position is that Muhammad historicity is tied to the historicity of Mecca.


    Muhammad historicity is tied  to the historicity of Mecca. The historicity of the Trojan War was tied to the historicity of Troy. No Troy, no Trojan War.

    Quote
    Let us assume that we found evidence that the city actually existed, does that increase the probability that Muhammad also existed?


    You forgot something : "assume  that the city actually existed" as described by Ibn Ishaq. Not a sanctuary with 200 peoples, or 1000 peoples, supposed waging war against the Persians in 628 and win the war. I'm sorry but it is a fairy tale for children, not for scholarship.
    We know that there is nothing like that in the "Hijaz". We know it. No city, no Christians no Jews. Idem in "Medina" : a swamp for camels, a village.
    Elsewhere? Then the frame recounted as "historical" facts would be false? Because it is not elsewhere for Ibn Ishaq, it is "Mecca" and nowhere else. And it is logic ; all the places of Orient where there are Arabic people are heavily populated by Jews and Christians where it would have been difficult to make credible the (all) story such as he recounted it  without making doubting to a fake. Therefore the "other" place, outside of natives Jews and Christians far from them is mandatory to make credible his story. Elsewhere? It would mean that one part of his narrative is wrong then? If one part is wrong, what else is wrong in what he recounts if it is elsewhere? Could be all.
    Assuming something impossible is (not) possible. I assumed his existence like everybody. I realized slowly  that I was wrong ; he never existed.

    Quote
    One last thing: am I justified in taking your paragraph as a succinct summary as to why you don't think Muhammad existed?


    Nope. Because it is not complete and concerns only few points.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4494 - October 04, 2018, 07:05 AM

    Earlier Yeezevee wrote:
    "Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on Yesterday at 12:34 PM
    Under the Rashidun caliphs, 632-661A.D., the Arab empire was enormous. A kind of strange that these people didn't leave more information. The first caliphs, we don't know if they even existed, because they didn't leave any archeological evidence. But the later ones definitely lived.

    where did you get that from dear Asbjoern1958??"

    Well, I am not so much in to this stuff as you. Some of it I got from Wikipedia. But my main point was that the early Arabs should have had the means of producing long lasting documents, since they were the rulers of a large area of land and obviously was rich enough.
    Maybe the first generations of "believers" were more occupied with conquering new land and get more wealth and sex slaves, than developing their new religion? 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4495 - October 04, 2018, 07:37 AM

    Earlier Yeezevee wrote:
    "Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on Yesterday at 12:34 PM
    Under the Rashidun caliphs, 632-661A.D., the Arab empire was enormous. A kind of strange that these people didn't leave more information.

    Well I would say the word "Arab empire" is hard to define during that time it was difficult to say "Who was Arab and who was NOT an arab"   .. You may say
    "Early Islamic empire Or proto -Islamic rulers".,   We must realize here So-called "Arabs" living  in Arabian peninsula means  people that were living in this colored picture


    were not just Arab pagan or  Arab nomads..But there were Jewish folks, Christian folks and Roman ruling class  And and I can bet  my last dime THAT ARAB PAGANS?NOMADS ??  were not the founders of Islamic theology and probably  initial Islamic empire

    Quote
    where did you get that from dear Asbjoern1958??"

    Well, I am not so much in to this stuff as you. Some of it I got from Wikipedia. But my main point was that the early Arabs Islam followers should have had the means of producing long lasting documents, since they were the rulers of a large area of land and obviously was rich enough.

     let me change that word  Arabs to "Early Islam followers"., . well don't we have that Islamic Golden Age??

    Quote
    Maybe the first generations of "believers" were more occupied with conquering new land and get more wealth and sex slaves, than developing their new religion?  

    no..no...  noooooo....
    when you used those words., "first generations of "believers"   then you have to give Islamic history/ Islamic expansion time line .  please scan through this folder  on  Chronological History of Islam

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4496 - October 04, 2018, 07:55 AM

    ...............................not from an existing person implied in the struggle between Arabs championed  by Zubayr. As Muhammad al  Hanafiyya is never  (I repeat) never mentioned in any external or internal (epigraphic, archaeologic or scribal) documents as "rasul Allah"...............
    .

      what a names? most of these early Islamic names are pretty confusing

    is that guy Zubayr....from this  beautiful wiki children Islamic  story?

    Quote
    Zubayr ibn al-Awam  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubayr_ibn_al-Awam

    Az-Zubayr ibn Al-Awam (Arabic: الزبير بن العوام بن خويلد‎; 594–656) was a companion of Muhammad and a commander in the Rashidun army.  Al-Zubayr was born in Mecca in 594.[1]:75

    His father was Al-Awam ibn Khuwaylid of the Asad clan of the Quraysh tribe, making Al-Zubayr a nephew of Khadijah. His mother was Muhammad's aunt, Safiyyah bint ‘Abd al-Muttalib, hence Al-Zubayr was Muhammad's first cousin.[1]:75 He had two brothers, Sa'ib and Abdul Kaaba; a maternal brother, Safi ibn Al-Harith, who was from the Umayya clan;[2]:29 and several paternal siblings, including Hind bint Al-Awwam, a wife of Zayd ibn Haritha.....  Al-Zubayr was one of the first five men to accept Islam under the influence of Abu Bakr,[3]:115 and is said to have been the fourth or fifth adult male convert.[1]:76

    He was one of the first fifteen emigrants to Abyssinia in 615,[3]:146 and he returned there in 616.[3]:147 While he was in Abyssinia, a rebellion against the Negus (King) broke out. The Negus met the rebels on the banks of the Nile. ..

    beautiful children story.. I bet you can have many such stories ..

    and look ate reference where they get these stories

    Quote
    References
     Muhammad ibn Saad. Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir vol. 3. Translated by Bewley, A. (2013). The Companions of Badr. London: Ta-Ha Publishers.
     Muhammad ibn Saad. Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir vol. 8. Translated by Bewley, A. (1995). The Women of Madina. London: Ta-Ha Publishers.
     Muhammad ibn Ishaq. Sirat Rasul Allah. Translated by Guillaume, A. (1955). The Life of Muhammad. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
     Medlung, Wilferd (1997). The succession to Muhammad. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521561817. Retrieved June 30, 2014.
     Al-Tabari, Tarikh al-Rusul wa’l-Muluk. Translated by Humphreys, R. S. (1990). Vol. 15, The Crisis of the Early Caliphate, pp. 238-239. Albany: State University of New York Press.
     Jalal ad-Din Abdulrahman Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa. Translated by Jarrett, H. S. (1881). History of the Caliphs. Calcutta: The Asiatic Society.
     Al-Tabari, Tarikh al-Rusul wa’l-Muluk. Translated by Brockett, A. (1997). Vol. 16, The Community Divided. Albany: State University of New York Press.
     Muir, W. (1924). The Caliphate: its Rise, Decline, and Fall from Original Sources, 2nd Ed., pp. 243-244. Edinburgh: John Grant.
     Abu Dawud 40:4632.
     Tirmidhi #3747


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4497 - October 04, 2018, 08:07 AM

    Yeezevee, you want to change the word Arab to "Early Islam followers". That's a difficult phrase to use since the words Islam and Muslims wasn't commonly used before the 8th or the 9th century.
    If I remember correctly, Hoyland mentioned that the word Arabs was used quite early. Am I wrong?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4498 - October 04, 2018, 08:12 AM

    Quote
    is that guy Zubayr....from this  beautiful wiki children Islamic  story?


    Nope, his son Abdallah : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_Allah_ibn_al-Zubayr

    Quote
    Starting from 683, al-Zubayr contested the title of caliph and rebelled against the ruling Umayyad Caliphate for nearly a decade. Ibn Zubayr was defeated and killed in Mecca in 692 AD after a six-month siege by the general Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf.[3]

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4499 - October 04, 2018, 09:02 AM

    Yeezevee, you want to change the word Arab to "Early Islam followers". That's a difficult phrase to use

    what is so difficult to use ? if not that  use something like "Monotheism followers"  .. Arabia of that time had multiple cultures and faiths
    Quote
    since the words Islam and Muslims wasn't commonly used before the 8th or the 9th century.

    True,, and secrets of so called "Islam/Islamic faith" lies right in that statement ., Framing it as question Why they(( the words Islam and Muslims )) were NOT referred as such??
    Quote
    If I remember correctly, Hoyland mentioned that the word Arabs was used quite early. Am I wrong?

    Yes one can use that word., but what does that signifies?? who were they?? Just people living in Arabia??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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