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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6750 - May 26, 2019, 10:08 AM
    Woo   yeeha ha hooo.. three words from Mahgraye ...  each word appears to be a revelation on its  own.. Cheesy Cheesy   
    Quote from: Mahgraye on May 26, 2019, 01:29 AM
    1. yawn...

    2. screw the secular jihadists.

    3. as to tom holland, well, i guess he is okay.

     Now i don't know which revelation for who??   or which post ?

      but dear  Mahgraye   .,  is that 2nd one a sarcastic revelation or a caustic revelation??  ..lo..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6751 - May 26, 2019, 10:30 AM
    nope - no sarcasm, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6752 - May 27, 2019, 03:22 PM
    Thanks Bjoern for the Holland discussion,

    It is a nice resume of the existing problems of the narrative and the different positions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6753 - May 27, 2019, 05:06 PM
    Another great scholar passed away: Michael Bonner.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6754 - May 27, 2019, 05:22 PM
    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6755 - May 27, 2019, 06:44 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Mahgraye on May 27, 2019, 05:06 PM
    Another great scholar passed away: Michael Bonner.



    Quote from: Altara on May 27, 2019, 05:22 PM
    Yes.


      so  did you guys read his book??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6756 - May 27, 2019, 06:59 PM
    Nope, I'm not interested any more in jihad. I'm done it with this. I do not consider it as an important pillar at the origin of the Quran or Islam (as eschatology for more and more scholars today) contrary to Gallez or de Prémare which is normal as they both are Christians. As such they were lead to think of it considering what happened to Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6757 - May 27, 2019, 07:29 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Mahgraye on May 27, 2019, 05:06 PM
    Another great scholar passed away: Michael Bonner.

    Quote from: Altara on May 27, 2019, 05:22 PM
    Yes.

     
    Quote from: Altara on May 27, 2019, 06:59 PM
    Nope,.


    well  then your "YES" & "NOPE"    seem to have sword fight  dear Altara....   and  i have problem defining the word "Scholar"   for those who investigate History of religions.. or history of mankind

    Quote
    I'm not interested any more in jihad I'm done it with this. I do not consider it as an important pillar at the origin of the Quran or Islam (as eschatology for more and more scholars today) contrary to Gallez or de Prémare which is normal as they both are Christians. As such they were lead to think of it considering what happened to Christianity.

     


    what does that mean??   

    does it mean "JIHAD WAS NOT THERE IN EARLY ISLAM??  or it is not there and not important in Islam itself??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6758 - May 27, 2019, 09:28 PM
    Both Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6759 - May 28, 2019, 07:38 AM
    Melchert on Quran and hadith:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NgSVl9rJqQ&feature=youtu.be

    Melchert clearly states that different readings emerged trying to make sense of the rasm.
    He claims that the early tradition leaves room for viewing the rasm as being dictated by Gabriel and all the rest is less divine.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6760 - May 28, 2019, 09:28 AM
    Quote
    Melchert clearly states that different readings emerged trying to make sense of the rasm.


    Sure. There's no oral tradition. Only a text. All the narrative is wrong. But! It is not a plot. It is a belief as the Quran states about itself that it is a proclamation, to not believe in the oral tradition is not believe in the word of God.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6761 - May 28, 2019, 10:32 AM
    Oral tradition:

    Some scholars really seem to believe this. I know it is completely implausible but when all these intelligent people say the contrary, even I start to have second thoughts  Huh?

    So I do think it is refreshing to hear Melchert say what he says.

    The Quran speaks of itself also as a book. I don't think this "primacy of orality" is spelled out in the Q. Contrary.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6762 - May 28, 2019, 10:53 AM
    Quote
    The Quran speaks of itself also as a book.


    It's much more ambiguous than that. One does not really know about what book it is talking about, whereas one does know when it speak about the texts one is reading now (hahaha!) and regarding it, it speaks of it as a proclamation, not a written text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6763 - May 28, 2019, 11:41 AM
    Quote from: mundi on May 28, 2019, 10:32 AM
    Oral tradition:

    Some scholars really seem to believe this. I know it is completely implausible but when all these intelligent people say the contrary, even I start to have second thoughts  Huh?

    So I do think it is refreshing to hear Melchert say what he says.

    the Oral tradition:.. WHAT I CALL IS ORAL DIARRHEA  .. comes from faith heads who interpret these faith books in a literal way word to word...  It is very little to do with what is there in these faith books and the facts about the origins/history of these faiths..   That not only goes to Islam but to ALL OTHER FAITHS on the planet . did you watch all that  50 mts or so video  dear mundi?? what did he say??

    the heading says "Shaping of Islam in early middle ages"  and  which years of Islam you consider as  "middle ages" in Islam starting from first  revelation in that cave ??  i mean what year to what year??

    Quote
    The Quran speaks of itself also as a book. I don't think this "primacy of orality" is spelled out in the Q. Contrary.

      what does that mean?? well before Quran became a book sure it must be all ORAL.....  I mean it has to be   ...right??.,   So what is wrong with that??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6764 - May 28, 2019, 12:09 PM
    Quote
    what does that mean?? well before Quran became a book sure it must be all ORAL...


    In your head surely. From you head to your pen.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6765 - May 28, 2019, 12:20 PM
    Quote from: Altara on May 28, 2019, 12:09 PM
    In your head surely. From you head to your pen.


    forget about my head .. it is empty space dear Altara....  but you are missing the point of that lecture/talk in that tube...

    Question is about  middle ages of Islam.... and  what are the  names of those heads in those middle ages that  put the book Quran together  and the role rulers of middle ages .putting that book together ...??  that is the point
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6766 - May 28, 2019, 12:59 PM
    "well before Quran became a book sure it must be all ORAL."

    Absolutely not. Does an author have a book in his head when he starts to write?
    Did I know how my sentence will end when I started this sentence?

    Answer is NO .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6767 - May 28, 2019, 01:39 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on May 28, 2019, 12:09 PM
    In your head surely. From you head to your pen.

    Quote from: mundi on May 28, 2019, 12:59 PM
    "well before Quran became a book sure it must be all ORAL."

    Absolutely not. Does an author have a book in his head when he starts to write?
    Do I know how my sentence will end when I started this sentence?

    Answer is NO .


    hey.... you two guys will be put where you belong if you talk/write like that in a REAL ISLAMIC NATION... finmad

    by saying that you two guys threw Allah out of the window  under the bus
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6768 - May 28, 2019, 02:59 PM
    Quote from: mundi on May 28, 2019, 12:59 PM
    "well before Quran became a book sure it must be all ORAL."

    Absolutely not. Does an author have a book in his head when he starts to write?
    Did I know how my sentence will end when I started this sentence?

    Answer is NO .


    Sure.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6769 - May 28, 2019, 06:17 PM
    The Quran is a written text. Moreover Melchert in the video seems (really) embarrassed in destroying the fable of the oral transmission, going against the pillar of the Muslim narrative, namely the frame Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba and the character supposed to have produced the text  the "Prophet Muhammad", transmitting orally the Quranic proclamation to the people who have installed themselves in Damascus.
    All of this, thanks Melchert to say it (even embarrassed), is a fable.
    The narrative is inexact, there is no oral transmission, but a work on a consonantal text which have to be completed and has been completed by people whose origin are nor Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba whereas the narrative claims they are.
    There is no plot just a belief which explains the Quranic text.
    This belief is historically inexact; the Quranic text (beyond the interpolations spotted in it)  has another origin. Muslim believe in a fake story about their sacred book. All is fake.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6770 - May 28, 2019, 07:22 PM
    mundi let us forget Quran writing or a book writing  for a minute..
    Quote from: mundi on May 28, 2019, 12:59 PM
    .....
    Did I know how my sentence will end when I started this sentence?

    Answer is NO .

    And I say that  NO .   is wrong .,  And answer is absolutely 100% well .. 99.999999999999999999% yes..


    what do you say?? Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6771 - May 28, 2019, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: Altara on May 28, 2019, 06:17 PM
    Quote
    1.  The Quran is a written text. The so-called frame Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba and the character supposed to have produced the text  the "Prophet Muhammad", transmitting orally the Quranic proclamation to the people   has been constructed  by those who have installed themselves in Damascus.

     
    2. The narrative is inexact, there is no oral transmission, but a work on a consonantal text which have to be completed and has been completed by people whose origin are not  Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba whereas the narrative claims they are. There is no plot just a belief which explains the Quranic text.  This belief is historically inexact; the Quranic text (beyond the interpolations spotted in it)  has another origin.


    I  took the liberty of editing bit of your post but those  two  statements are extremely important to put them on to a publication dear Altara...  I am not sure why you are not do that  and what for you are waiting . You must write it up even if you don't have any Archaeological proof   but as a logical rational hypothesis  on the origins of Islam..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6772 - May 28, 2019, 09:15 PM
    Quote from: Altara on May 27, 2019, 09:28 PM
    Both Wink


    Jihad was invented after the fact to build a mystique around events that were not religious in nature and in order to help build the muslim narrative and show the alleged superiority of Islam.

    It is however an important pillar nowadays, especially when one look at movements like ISIS though there are a lot of muslim who prefer dawa to jihad but they serve the same goal.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6773 - May 28, 2019, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: mundi on May 28, 2019, 12:59 PM
    "well before Quran became a book sure it must be all ORAL."

    Absolutely not. Does an author have a book in his head when he starts to write?
    Did I know how my sentence will end when I started this sentence?

    Answer is NO .


    Especially if he copies texts...................
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6774 - May 29, 2019, 12:00 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 28, 2019, 08:03 PM
    1.  The Quran is a written text. The so-called frame Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba and the character supposed to have produced the text  the "Prophet Muhammad", transmitting orally the Quranic proclamation to the people has been constructed  by those who have installed themselves in Damascus.


    Nope there's a different explication.

    Quote
    2. The narrative is inexact, there is no oral transmission, but a work on a consonantal text which have to be completed and has been completed by people whose origin are not  Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba whereas the narrative claims they are. There is no plot just a belief which explains the Quranic text.  This belief is historically inexact; the Quranic text (beyond the interpolations spotted in it)  has another origin.


    Yes. Working on it seriously with no agenda of tenure, career, ideology , political correctness, or just be not fired (what I understand very well... I do not blame them), all what have not academics, I get those chances, I have some responses. The issue with the Quran is that it necessitates to be interested in other things that few in the field owns. This field is more vast than perceived and mobilizes different dimension that  a professor of Arabic or a specialist of the Virgin Mary cannot get; they does not show to know them in their work.
    One scholar has perceived this, he wrote it (in French...), it is Manfred Kropp.
      The only scholar who could (in the field) be near me from this point of view is... is... Hahaha! I won't tell it! Even if he's wrong (for me...) on many things  he has the vista to ask question and searching. (Nope it is not Raymond Dequin  dance hahaha!)

    Quote
    I  took the liberty of editing bit of your post but those  two  statements are extremely important to put them on to a publication dear Altara...

     

    I know that very well dear Yeez. Very much more than you could perceive...

    Quote
    I am not sure why you are not do that  and what for you are waiting .

     

    You should know that it is not so simple. Especially in this precise field.
    Quote
    You must write it up even if you don't have any Archaeological proof  but as a logical rational hypothesis  on the origins of Islam.. with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Many scholars read us, be sure of it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6775 - May 29, 2019, 10:14 AM
    Archeology:

    Very early in "proto-Islam", the believers seemed to have adopted specific burial practices: burying the dead in a specific direction on the right side. I think this can be an important clue in the understanding of where the ideology of the litterrati/illuminati emerged.

    Anyone?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6776 - May 29, 2019, 10:49 AM
    Quote
    I think this can be an important clue in the understanding of where the ideology of the litterrati/illuminati emerged.


    From the moment we have not external sources of that practice...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6777 - May 29, 2019, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: Altara on May 29, 2019, 12:00 AM
    ................. Yes. Working on it seriously with no agenda of tenure, career, ideology , political correctness, or just be not fired (what I understand very well... I do not blame them), all what have not academics, I get those chances, I have some responses.

    glad to note that

    Quote
    "The issue with the Quran is that it necessitates to be interested in other things that few in the field owns. This field is more vast than perceived and mobilizes different dimension that  a professor of Arabic or a specialist of the Virgin Mary cannot get; they does not show to know them in their work."..........One scholar has perceived this, he wrote it (in French...), it is Manfred Kropp.

    There is no  doubt about that And i fully agree with dr.  Manfred Kropp .,
     
    Quote
    Many scholars read us, be sure of it.

    Hope they  join the forum and  teach the reader how to  be objective in exploring early Islam without bias and without INSULTING MUSLIM FOLKS.. 

    well let me add some links to read..

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/PDF/The_Hajj_collected_essays_BM.pdf
    https://islamichistorycommons.org/mem/wp-content/uploads/sites/55/2016/12/UW-24.pdf

    Peter Webb paper is worth reading in that first link...

    https://journals.openedition.org/beo/pdf/146
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6778 - May 29, 2019, 01:44 PM
    Altara

    Graves:

    I have a set of examples pre-islam (Aila) and also early islam.

    The early islam sites are mentioned by Gibson eg in Spain, Nimes and also Qasr Qastal ( http://thesacredcity.ca/qastal.html).

    Gibson associates it with the battle of Badr . Probably that is imagination.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELh-uIHjPbc&feature=youtu.be&a=).  But the archeological report I found (http://www.chambres-hotes-morin-salome.fr/Qastal-chateau-omeyyade.html) show that the oldest tombs face Petra (190 dg). Petra could be meant or some other site, who knows. The archeologists thought mosque and graves were aligned with Jerusalem: that doesnt make sense especially for the Qibla...With a difference of 10 dg from due south (for mosque Qibla AND burial), it is doubtful that this is just "carelessness" as David King would say.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6779 - May 29, 2019, 01:46 PM
    Quote
    Many scholars read us, be sure of it


     dance Doubt it very much!
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