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- zeca
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Reply #7260 - August 02, 2019, 03:00 PM

Marijn van Putten and Phillip Stokes - Case in the Quranic Consonantal Text

https://www.academia.edu/37481811/Case_in_the_Qurˀānic_Consonantal_Text._Wiener_Zeitschrift_für_die_Kunde_des_Morgenlandes_108_2018_pp._143-179

Which side are you on?
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Reply #7261 - August 02, 2019, 07:05 PM

On J. Chabbi:

Agree she doesnt see the bigger picture. ( i don't either but I least I realise I dont).

She sketches the difficulties with Mecca but then treats Mohammed as indeed having lived there and having inspired the Quran in this area. She is still stuck in the idea of the Quran being mainly influenced by Yemenite Christianity. I think it is now obvious that the inspiration came mainly from the North.

She starts off describing her surprise that so many scholars take the tradition to be factional just to fall in the trap herself.
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Reply #7262 - August 03, 2019, 10:42 AM

Quote
Agree she doesnt see the bigger picture. ( i don't either but I least I realise I dont).

I'm not H.G. Wells. I could never check ( but in the future, one never know...) if I'm right or wrong.
Quote
She sketches the difficulties with Mecca but then treats Mohammed as indeed having lived there and having inspired the Quran in this area.

How can she see clearly the difficulties with Mecca and then treats Mohammed as indeed having lived there and having inspired the Quran in this area?
Because she's lost.

Quote
She is still stuck in the idea of the Quran being mainly influenced by Yemenite Christianity.

She did not see the Big Picture. Imo she won't see it: she has not the training. She should have seen it since ages.

Quote
I think it is now obvious that the inspiration came mainly from the North.

Hmmm...The script is North. The issue is what was really the Yemeni Christianity? Syriac influence, Ethiopian?
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Reply #7263 - August 03, 2019, 10:50 AM

Quote from: zeca on August 02, 2019, 03:00 PM
Marijn van Putten and Phillip Stokes - Case in the Quranic Consonantal Text

https://www.academia.edu/37481811/Case_in_the_Qurˀānic_Consonantal_Text._Wiener_Zeitschrift_für_die_Kunde_des_Morgenlandes_108_2018_pp._143-179

Interesting and technical.
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Reply #7264 - August 03, 2019, 02:08 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 03, 2019, 10:42 AM
.................................
How can she see clearly the difficulties with Mecca and then treats Mohammed as indeed having lived there and having inspired the Quran in this area?

Because she's lost.
.......................................

She is Lost., says Altara.,

dear Altara... GIVE ME THE NAME OF A EARLY ISLAMIC INVESTIGATOR/SCHOLAR.....WHO IS/WAS NOT LOST

here is the list of scholars that Mahgraye asked me to read their work.. I only want to read those scholars work who were NOT lost...,

Quote
Quote from: yeezevee on May 02, 2018, 01:05 PM
So Mahgraye used two important words in his post "scholars" in this "field"
...................................

So I wish Mahgraye could also putout some links and list of names on that subject of Quran ...Muhammad... Mecca ....Madina.. in Early Islam..

Quote from: Mahgraye on May 02, 2018, 07:47 PM
Here are some names of prominent scholars in the field of Islamic Studies who have published on the Koran, Hadith, etc. They belong to different methodological camps.

Angelika Neuwirth, Nicolai Sinai, Michael Marx, Gregor Schoeler, Harald Motzki, Andreas Görke, Chase F. Robinson, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, Gerald R. Hawting, John Wansbrough, Rudolph Sellheim, Sean Anthony, Christopher Melchert, Herbert Berg, Johann Fück, Nabia Abbot, Robert Hoyland, Jonathan Brockopp, Shahab Ahmed, Stephen Shoemaker, Fred Donner, Gabriel Said Reynolds, Jan van Reeth, Holger Zolondek, Gautier A. H. Juynboll, Ignaz Goldziher, Joseph Schacht, Henri Lammens, Andrew Rippin, Ernst Renan, Norman Calder, Iftikhar Zaman, Arthur Jeffery, Lawrence Conrad, Aloys Sprenger, Marco Schöller, Tilman Nagel, Francis Peters, Stephen Humphreys, Behnam Sadeghi, James Montgomery, Uri Bergmann, Jonathan Brown, Ian Morris, Stefan Heidemann, Sebastian Günther, Carlos A. Segovia, Meir Kister, Uri Rubin, Montgomery Watt, Julius Wellhausen, M. M. Azami, Alfred Guillaume, Guillaume Dye, A. J. Arberry, Michael Lecker, Scott Lucas, François de Bois, Jan Retsö, Omar Hamdan, William Muir, Amidu Olalekan Sanni, James Robson, Marston Speight, Kevin Reinhart, Eerik Dickinson, David Cook, Devin Stewart, Günter Lüling, John Burton, Peter Stein, George Makdisi, Wael Hallaq, Noel Coulson, Sebastian Günther, Stefan Leder, Talal Maloush, Stefan Wild, Thomas Bauer, David Margoliouth, M. C. Lyon, Leone Caetani, David Powers, Maher Jarrar, Mohammed Bamyeh, Sadun Mahmud Al-Samuk, Maxime Rodinson, Emran El-Badawi, Hossein Modarressi, Daniel Madigan, Paul Casanova, Alphonse Mingana, Lyall Armstrong, Intisar Rabb, Asma Sayeed, Najam Haider, Yasin Dutton, Amikam Elad, Sydney Griffith, Etan Kohlberg, Ella Landau-Tasseron, Hellmut Ritter, Pavel Pavlovitch, James Bellamy, Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer, François Déroche, Adis Duderija, Asma Hilali, Hartwig Hirschfeld, Shady Hekmat Nasser, Johannes van Oort, Catherine Pennacchio, Mustafa Shah, W. St. Clair Tisdall, Estelle Whelan, Solehah binti Yaacob, Mohsen Goudarzi, Kamaruddin Amin, Carl Brockelmann, Mohammed Fadel, Sulaiman Jarallah, Ilkka Lindstedt, Ulrike Mitter, Halit Ozkan, Irene Schneider, A. J. Wensinck, Petra Sijpesteijin, J. M. B. Jones, Albrecht Noth, J. H. Kramers, Abraham Geiger, Theodor Nöldeke, Nicolet Boekhoff-van der Voort, Karl Vilhelm Zetterstéen, Christopher Toll, Tord Olsson, Jane Dammen McAuliffe, William A. Graham, Navid Kermani, Fred Leemhuis, Naṣr Abū Zayd, Camilla Adang, ʿAlī b. Ibrāhīm al-Ghabbān, Nebil Ahmed Husayn, Marijin van Putten, Ahmad Al-Jallad, Michael Bonner, Jonathan Owens, Martin F. J. Baasten, Régis Blachère, Richard Bell, Flügel, David Hollenberg, Seth A. Rosenthal, Miklos Muranyi, Mahdi ‘May’ Shaddel, Harald Suermann, Han J. W. Drijvers, Gerrit J. Reinink, Pieter W. van der Horst, Suliman Bashear, Edmund Beck, Gotthelf Bergsträsser, Gerhard Böwering, David Cook, Martin Hinds, Gilbert Dagron, Vincent Déroche, Alfred-Louis de Prémare, Abd al-Aziz Duri, Reuven Firestone, Oleg Grabar, Marshall G. S. Hodgson, Raif Georges Khoury, Wilferd Madelung, Michael G. Morony, Suleiman Ali Mourad, Neal Robinson, Muḥammad Zubayr Ṣiddīqī, Rizwi S. Faizer, Saleh Said Agha, Hinrich Biesterfeldt, Wadad Kadi, Judith Herrin, Joseph Witztum, Hannah Cotton, Guy G. Stroumsa, Karen Bauer, David M. Eisenberg, Deborah G. Tor, Matthew S. Gordon, Kevin van Bladel, Maria Mavroudi, Fritz W. Zimmermann, Michael Cooperson, Margaret Larkin, Khaled El-Rouayheb, Chris Wickham, David J. Wasserstein, David Abulafia, Adam Silverstein, Bella Tendler Krieger, Werner Diem, Geoffrey Khan, Marie Legendre, Lucian Reinfandt, Irfan Shahid, Khalid Younes, Nancy Khalek, Maribel Fierro, Najam Haider, Adam Sabra, Jane Hathaway, Samer Traboulsi, Nurit Tsafrir, Nimrod Hurvitz, Justin Stearns, Asad Q. Ahmed, Leor Halevi, Carol Bakhos, Iwona Gajda, Norman Calder, Asma Sayeed, Hassan F. Ansari, Baber Johansen, Intisar A. Rabb, Khaled Abou El Fadl, Edmund Beck, M. M. Bravemann, Harris Birkeland, Toshihiko Izutsu, Averil Cameron, Garth Fowden, Frank Trombley, J. H. W. Liebeschuetz, Christian Decorbet, Fergus Millar, Robert Schick, J. F. Haldon, Hartmut Bobzin, Mikhail D. Bukharin, Islam Dayeh, Kirill Dmitriev, Barbara Finster, Agnes Imhof, Ernst Axel Knauf, Reimund Leicht, Norbert Nebes, Jan Retsö, Nora K. Schmid, Tilman Seidensticker, Peter Stein, Isabel Toral-Niehoff, Sergio Noja Noseda, Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Christoph Luxenburg, Markus Gross, Volker Popp, Hans Jansen, Muhammad Sven Kalisch, Yehuda Nevo, Judith Koren, Robert M. Kerr, Raymond Dequin, Uwe Friedrich Schmidt, Peter von Sivers, Christopher Plato, Gilles Courtieu, Johannes Thomas, Genevieve Gobillot, Mohammad Lamsiah, Jean-Jacques Walter, Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, Ibn Warraq, Norbert G. Pressburg, Robert Spencer, Hans-Jörg Döhla, Alba Fedeli, Marcin Grodzki, Geneviève Gobillot, Markus Stor, Claude Gilliot, Christoph Heger, Gilles Courtieu, Manfred S. Kropp, Robert M. Kerr, Pierre Larcher, Thomas Milo, Sergio Noja Noseda, Alfred-Louis de Prémare, Elisabeth Puin, Filippo Ranieri, Piotr O. Scholz, Mondher SFAR, Kieth Liten, Johannes Thomas, Frank Van Reeth, Munther Younes, Mohammad Lamsiah, Édouard-Marie Gallez, Éléonore Cellard, Tayyar Altıkulaç, John Wansbrough, Francisco del Río Sánchez, Simon C. Mimouni, Abdul-Massih Saadi, Joseph Azzi, Mālik Muslimānī, Y. Durra al-Ḥaddād, Guy Stroumsa, Holger Zellentin, Jens Scheiner, Michael E. Pregill, Peter Webb, etc.

so Altara pick me a name from this list..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7265 - August 03, 2019, 04:10 PM

They're all, more or less, lost. Some are worth reading than others : Segovia, Isabel Toral-Niehoff, Patricia Crone, Édouard-Marie Gallez, Zellentin, Yehuda Nevo, Judith Koren, Reynolds, Alfred-Louis de Prémare, Dye, Courtieu, Kerr, Neal Robinson.Spencer book on the existence of Muhammad is a must read (yes,yes, Spencer... yawn) Déroche, Averil Cameron.Geneviève Gobillot is finishing her 1,000 pages book on the Quran (in French).
Wansbrough is too cryptic. Yet he is at the origin of the layers theory of the Quran (retake by most of scholars now -Dye, Segovia, Gallez, etc.)
Only Gallez (he has spent 10 years of work) has made a total work : proposing a complete thesis (with which I'm not agree with, especially with his judeonazoreans) not only about the Quran, but also on the historical context of emergence.
It is what I'm proposing to do.
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Reply #7266 - August 03, 2019, 09:40 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 03, 2019, 04:10 PM
They're all, more or less, lost. Some are worth reading than others ................

well thanks for saving my time by stopping me reading ALL THOSE LOST SCHOLARS dear Altara ... then the project is simple..... READ QURAN... So let me read some verses from the book

Quote

Quote
75.    But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
76.    And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;
77.    Most surely it is an honored Quran,
78.    In a book that is protected
79.   None shall touch it save the purified ones.
80.    A revelation by the Lord of the worlds.

Quote
38.   So I swear by whatsoever you see,
39.    And by whatsoever you see not,
40.   That this is verily, the word of an honoured Messenger
41.   It is not the word of a poet: little is that you believe!
42.   Nor is it the word of a soothsayer : little is that you remember!
43.   This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the 'Alamin .
44.   And if he had forged a false saying concerning Us
45.   We surely would have seized him by his right hand
46.   And then We certainly would have cut off his life artery
47.   And none of you could have withheld Us from him.

Quote
38. Does every man of them desire that he should be made to enter the garden of bliss?
39.   By no means! Surely We have created them of what they know.
40.   But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able
41.   To bring instead better than them, and We shall not be overcome.
42.   Therefore leave them alone to go on with the false discourses and to sport until they come face to face with that day of theirs with which they are threatened;
43.   The day on which they shall come forth from their graves in haste, as if they were hastening on to a goal,
44.   Their eyes cast down; disgrace shall overtake them; that is the day which they were threatened with.

Quote
1.   Nay! I swear by the day of resurrection.
2.   Nay! I swear by the self-accusing soul.
3.   Does man think that We shall not gather his bones?
4.   Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips
5.   Nay! man desires to give the lie to what is before him.
6.   He asks: When is the day of resurrection?
7.   So when the sight becomes dazed,
8.   And the moon becomes dark,
9.   And the sun and the moon are brought together,

Quote
14.   Every soul shall (then) know what it has prepared.
15.   But nay! I swear by the stars,
16.   That run their course (and) hide themselves,
17.   And the night when it departs,
18.   And the morning when it brightens,
19.   Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger,

Hu!.. Allah/God/THE SUPREME SUPER FORCE that made everything in the universe.. that controls everything in the universe SWEARS BY SOMETHING Heeeeeeeeeeee created...

oh well fools read nonsense and talk nonsense about it

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7267 - August 04, 2019, 12:32 PM

This Allah/God...The God/The Supreme Controller of everything in this vast universe of billions of galaxies with billions of planets/stars /whatever SWEARING ON SOME SILLY THINGS LIKE SOME SILLY TOWN .. SOME SILLY FOLKS ... ON WIND.. etc..etc REALLY BOTHERS ME ..

so let me see here how many such verses we have in Quran..

Quote
(1) i swear by the Quran full of wisdom ....

(2) i swear by those who draw themselves out in ranks

(3) Suad, i swear by the Quran, full of admonition.

(4) i swear by the Book that makes things clear:

(5) i swear by the Book that makes manifest (the truth).

(6) Qaf. i swear by the glorious Quran

(7) i swear by the wind that scatters far and wide,

(8 ) i swear by the heaven full of ways.

(9) i swear by the Mountain,

(10) i swear by the star when it goes down.

(11) But nay! i swear by the falling of stars;

(12) Noon. i swear by the pen and what the angels write,

(13) But nay! i swear by that which you see,

(14) But nay! i swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able

(15) Nay; i swear by the moon,

(16) Nay! i swear by the day of resurrection.

(17) Nay! i swear by the self-accusing soul.

(18) i swear by the emissary winds, sent one after another

(19) Then i swear by the angels who bring down the revelation,

(20) i swearby the angels who violently pull out the souls of the wicked,

(21) But nay! i swearby the stars,

(22) But nay! i swear by the sunset redness,

(23) i swear by the mansions of the stars,

(24) i swear by the heaven and the comer by night;

(25) i swear by the raingiving heavens,

(26) i swear by the daybreak,

(27) Nay! i swear by this city.

(28) i swear by the sun and its brilliance,

(29) i swear by the night when it draws a veil,

(30) i swear by the early hours of the day,

(31) i swear by the fig and the olive,

(32) i swear by the runners breathing pantingly,

(33) i swear by the time,

well all those verses are from Shakir Translation... Ha!.. The supreme God Swearing by the runners breathing pantingly??? swearing by a fig and the olive?? swearing by a city?? why .?? .. why God has to swear on some silly stuff?? that too HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE created that stuff....

That is stupid.. Sure some of these verses are added by rascals...THEY ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH PROPHET OF ISLAM AND NOTHING TO WITH ALLAH..

errrrrrrrrrrr hell with those verses ..let me watch Carl Sagan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ex__M-OwSA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57DyNMRGY8

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7268 - August 04, 2019, 09:23 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 03, 2019, 02:08 PM
She is Lost., says Altara.,

dear Altara... GIVE ME THE NAME OF A EARLY ISLAMIC INVESTIGATOR/SCHOLAR.....WHO IS/WAS NOT LOST

here is the list of scholars that Mahgraye asked me to read their work.. I only want to read those scholars work who were NOT lost...,

so Altara pick me a name from this list..

You can read AJ Deus ; he has some of the pieces of the puzzle ; also to follow her next publishing is Parvaneh Pourshariati who shall explain why the conquest of Iran timeline was amended to fit in with Muhammad lifestory.
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Reply #7269 - August 05, 2019, 08:08 AM

Quote from: Marc S on August 04, 2019, 09:23 PM
You can read AJ Deus ; he has some of the pieces of the puzzle ; also to follow her next publishing is Parvaneh Pourshariati who shall explain why the conquest of Iran timeline was amended to fit in with Muhammad lifestory.

Hello Marc.......well we went through her?/his? work see this link., in fact you suggested ..

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg881845#msg881845

but no one is unquestionable dear Marc... I didn't get your use of that name "Parvaneh Pourshariati" .. you mean both of them writing a book together on Persian Islam??

that 6th to 9th century history of Iran is a real tragic story.... Lucky Persia had a very strong independent cultural semi monotheistic religious identity.... it is completely decimated by the stories of Islam..

I wonder you could elaborate on what you said here "Iran timeline was amended to fit in with Muhammad lifestory. " Who amended Iran time line to fit Muhammad life story? and which Muhammad . Karbala Muhammad??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7270 - August 05, 2019, 02:21 PM

Hello Yeezevee,

Quote from: yeezevee on August 05, 2019, 08:08 AM
Hello Marc.......well we went through her?/his? work see this link., in fact you suggested ..

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg881845#msg881845

but no one is unquestionable dear Marc...

Yeah we talked about him but one must read his 2 books The Great Leap Fraud Part I (Judaism and Christianity) and Part II (Islam); he went through a massive amount of sources.

Quote
I didn't get your use of that name "Parvaneh Pourshariati" .. you mean both of them writing a book together on Persian Islam??

No, for AJ Deus, the topic is closed and he has/he did provide all the answers. Only she is still working on that topic.

Quote
I wonder you could elaborate on what you said here "Iran timeline was amended to fit in with Muhammad lifestory. " Who amended Iran time line to fit Muhammad life story? and which Muhammad . Karbala Muhammad??

Pourshariati is a scholar who focus on late antique, early medieval/modern, history of Iran and the Middle East. She is known for this book

http://www.victoriaazad.com/pdf/Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Sasanian_Empire.pdf

that seems to have been a groundbreaking work in the history of Iran and how it came to such an end with the arab conquests. One thing that she did show, related to Islam, is that the timeline of the arab conquests that the islamic tradition claim to have happened with Abu Bakr after the ridda wars did in fact start in 628 at a time when Muhammad was alive (per the islamic tradition). She also seem to imply that the reaons for those arab conquests were to secure trade routes.

She recently said on Academia that she is going to publish something that will explain why the timeline of the conquest of Iran by Arabs was amended to fit in the current muslim narrative (conquest after uniting the arab tribes following the ridda wars). She wouldn't tell me more in a private discussion so I guess we will have to wait for her work to come out.
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Reply #7271 - August 05, 2019, 06:11 PM

Pourshariati:

Interesting. So nothing to read summarizing her theories? Does her timeline fit with the numismatics?
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Reply #7272 - August 05, 2019, 06:38 PM

Above you have the link to read her whole book on the sassanian empire and you can skip many chapters and focus only on the ones related to the arab conquest.

She used seals and numismatics to asses her revised timeline of the arab invasion and the different battles.
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Reply #7273 - August 06, 2019, 12:24 PM

My goodness gracious Marc S throws at me too many books., ..............SOOO MUCH TO READ AND SO MANY BOOKS TO READ ......... well let me separate Sir A. j. Deus work from Prof. Pourshariati Thesis or Hypothesis.... and I wonder Marc S whether you know him/her personally??

http://independent.academia.edu/AjDeus

Quote from: Marc S on August 05, 2019, 02:21 PM
Hello Yeezevee,

Yeah we talked about him but one must read his 2 books The Great Leap Fraud Part I (Judaism and Christianity) and Part II (Islam); he went through a massive amount of sources.

No, for AJ Deus, the topic is closed and he has/he did provide all the answers. Only she is still working on that topic.

Yes... We do need to read those two books., yes..yes......... I call it as "TOTAL FRAUD" dear Marc S

Quote
Pourshariati is a scholar who focus on late antique, early medieval/modern, history of Iran and the Middle East. She is known for this book

http://www.victoriaazad.com/pdf/Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Sasanian_Empire.pdf

that seems to have been a groundbreaking work in the history of Iran and how it came to such an end with the arab conquests. One thing that she did show, related to Islam, is that the timeline of the arab conquests that the islamic tradition claim to have happened with Abu Bakr after the ridda wars did in fact start in 628 at a time when Muhammad was alive (per the islamic tradition). She also seem to imply that the reaons for those arab conquests were to secure trade routes.

She recently said on Academia that she is going to publish something that will explain why the timeline of the conquest of Iran by Arabs was amended to fit in the current muslim narrative (conquest after uniting the arab tribes following the ridda wars). She wouldn't tell me more in a private discussion so I guess we will have to wait for her work to come out.

I am not sure ground breaking but it is a good book to read., For me GROUND BREAKING is something which UPROOTS THE ROOTS ......like.....like Altara's simple one line song... let me make that one line song in to a sonnet from Quran

Mecca ....Madina...Muhammad.... Zam..Zam,,
Where is where is where is it?
Muhammad.. Mecca ....Madina... Zam..Zam,,
Where is where is where is it?
. Zam..Zam,, where is it?
Where is Muhammad where is Mecca?
where is Medina where is Muhammad?
where is Zam..Zam. where is Muhammad?
Zam..Zam,, where is it?
Not in Quran, where is it? where is it?
hiyya ....huyya.. hiyyara hiyya .

you know why i am laughing loud? for that you have to read these two posts of COSMIC DANCER at

1. https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6703.msg803844#msg803844
2. https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6703.msg803842#msg803842

that was some three years ago I scanned through her book Decline and Fall of the Sasanian Empire and i actually said something about that book and Cosmic dance did not like it.. lol

anyways I will read through it again.. but did you read through it ? and can you explain me from that book the gist of it on early Islam & RIDDA WARS w.r.t to Iran.. Persia....Persia......?? but thank you for the book link.. and please click the link under the sonnet to watch a tube on early Islam

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7274 - August 08, 2019, 08:40 AM

Tommaso Tesei has made a Twitter thread where he questions how the Quran and the traditions could be preserved from the time of Muhammad and until it was later was written down. Here are some quotes from his thread:

"5/21 Even if the actual period to which the fragmentary manuscripts should be ascribed is unclear, there seems to be an increasing scholarly consensus that the corpus reached a stable or quasi-stable form around the middle of the 7th century – a position that I myself advocate."
........
10/21 During this process a large segment of the original community was removed from its original home and, during its territorial expansion, was numerically enlarged by the arrival of new members"
.....
11/21 As a result, the number of people who had had direct contact with the founder of the community dramatically decreased in a very short period of time. These are the perfect conditions for loss, dilution, or even distortion of historical memory."
....
15/21 Soon after the beginning of the Arab territorial expansion, most members of the new community, especially the new members, probably had only a vague idea of the precepts of the charismatic, founding Prophet, and even less knowledge of the actual words he had spoken."
....
16/21 In sum, it is hard to believe that the conditions that characterized the early
Islamic period did not influence the redaction of the Qurʾān, and that a corpus
of prophetical speeches not yet committed to writing was not altered in such
chaotic times."
https://twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1137705615965507585

According to Ian D. Morris, those who wrote the tafsirs 1-2 hundred years later did not have an unbroken chain from the time of Muhammad, so most of it was something they "made up" or tried to figure out as good as they could out at a later stage.
We know that Bukhari collected 600 000 hadiths and just kept some few thousands and that the sira and hadiths are written down 2- 300 years after Muhammad supposedly lived.
Then it is kind of strange for me, as an outsider to the academic milieu and Islam, to listen to the scholars talking and writing certainly about what happened at the time of Muhammad and the formation of the Quran, when there is so much uncertainty.
It sure is a strange field!
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Reply #7275 - August 08, 2019, 08:48 AM

Another topic I have wondered about is the view of Fred Donner that in the beginning, Islam was a movement of Believers that also included Christians and Jews. He also claims that Islam was not a separate religion before around 700 AD, but how can you then believe that the sira and hadiths are from the time of Muhammad?
I have not studied the sira and hadiths, but shouldn't much of what is written there impossibly be written at an early stage, when Islam was not developed as a separate religion?
I hope you get my points, I am not so clever at explaining in English!!
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Reply #7276 - August 08, 2019, 04:31 PM

Björn,

I get your point and I agree!

But I am even more sceptical than Tessei. I doubt that anyone of the early community memorized the Quran. And for Sura and hadith, a kernel of proof here and there? That seems the maximum realistically possible to me. But of course, who am I...
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #7277 - August 08, 2019, 07:36 PM

I have read Ian D. Morris`s twitter thread once more and found out that I haven't quoted him correctly. Here is a new try, where I quote some of his tweets, but you should read the whole thread:

"Muslims starting writing down exegesis – interpretation of the Qur’an – before 750, but those early writings haven’t survived.
...
So for historians today, there’s plenty of reason to think an opinion might be a later forgery, and little evidence to show that it’s genuinely early.
....
There wasn’t a careful discipline for noting and memorising chains of transmission at the start, so the chains for early periods are patchy
....
As a result, we can claim to know a fair bit about how Muslims were interpreting the Qur’an in 800, but far less about 700, let alone 650.
....
The broader point is that medieval exegesis is no handbook to interpreting the Qur’an: the exegetes didn’t have a solid understanding of their scripture."
https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1139260089330741249
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Reply #7278 - August 08, 2019, 09:19 PM

Quote
Asbjoern1958 says
Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on August 08, 2019, 08:40 AM
Quote
Tommaso Tesei
Quote
Quran ......
Muhammad ....
Islamic
Qurʾān,

https://twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1137705615965507585

Quote
Ian D. Morris,
tafsirs
Muhammad,
hadiths a
Muhammad s
Islam,
Muhammad
Quran,

It sure is a strange field!

dear Asbjoern1958., Islam and Islamic stories on Muhammad and Quran origins come NOT from Academics like Tommaso Tesei or Ian D. Morris, but from fellows like these ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7sodVr7VYw

they have 1000 times more followers and readers than all those scholars you see in that link .. So to get to the bottom of origins of Quran and early Islam .. ONE MUST READ THROUGH HADITH AND THE CHAIN OF TRANSMITTERS ., and i tell you none of academic scholars read hadith volume.. forget hadith .. they don't even read Quran...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7279 - August 11, 2019, 03:30 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on August 08, 2019, 08:40 AM
Tommaso Tesei has made a Twitter thread where he questions how the Quran and the traditions could be preserved from the time of Muhammad and until it was later was written down. Here are some quotes from his thread:

Yawn... I thought that he was a model ...

Quote
"5/21 Even if the actual period to which the fragmentary manuscripts should be ascribed is unclear, there seems to be an increasing scholarly consensus that the corpus reached a stable or quasi-stable form around the middle of the 7th century – a position that I myself advocate."

When I read "scholarly consensus", i start to be afraid...

Quote
10/21 During this process a large segment of the original community was removed from its original home and, during its territorial expansion, was numerically enlarged by the arrival of new members"

What "home"?

Quote
11/21 As a result, the number of people who had had direct contact with the founder of the community dramatically decreased in a very short period of time. These are the perfect conditions for loss, dilution, or even distortion of historical memory."

What "founder"?

Quote
15/21 Soon after the beginning of the Arab territorial expansion, most members of the new community, especially the new members, probably had only a vague idea of the precepts of the charismatic, founding Prophet, and even less knowledge of the actual words he had spoken."

And?

Quote
16/21 In sum, it is hard to believe that the conditions that characterized the early Islamic period did not influence the redaction of the Qurʾān, and that a corpus
of prophetical speeches not yet committed to writing was not altered in such
chaotic times." https://twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1137705615965507585

Conjectures.

Quote
According to Ian D. Morris, those who wrote the tafsirs 1-2 hundred years later did not have an unbroken chain from the time of Muhammad, so most of it was something they "made up" or tried to figure out as good as they could out at a later stage.

They were lost in front of these texts. Scholars who have engaged this topic state it more or less clearly: they didn't understand many parts of it.
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Reply #7280 - August 11, 2019, 03:36 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on August 08, 2019, 07:36 PM
I have read Ian D. Morris`s twitter thread once more and found out that I haven't quoted him correctly. Here is a new try, where I quote some of his tweets, but you should read the whole thread:

"Muslims starting writing down exegesis – interpretation of the Qur’an – before 750, but those early writings haven’t survived.

Possible. But not interesting about the origin of the Quranic texts.
...
Quote
So for historians today, there’s plenty of reason to think an opinion might be a later forgery, and little evidence to show that it’s genuinely early.

Idem.
....
Quote
There wasn’t a careful discipline for noting and memorising chains of transmission at the start, so the chains for early periods are patchy

Idem.
....
Quote
As a result, we can claim to know a fair bit about how Muslims were interpreting the Qur’an in 800, but far less about 700, let alone 650.

Truism.
....
Quote
The broader point is that medieval exegesis is no handbook to interpreting the Qur’an: the exegetes didn’t have a solid understanding of their scripture."
https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1139260089330741249

They were lost in front of these texts. Scholars who have engaged this topic state it more or less clearly: they didn't understand many parts of it.
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Reply #7281 - August 12, 2019, 10:16 AM

Quote from: Altara on August 11, 2019, 03:36 PM
....They were lost in front of these texts. Scholars who have engaged this topic state it more or less clearly: they didn't understand many parts of it.

leaving Patricia Crone and her peer/s,, I mean her boss ..?? I would appreciate names of scholars who were LOST in those texts dear Altara

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7282 - August 12, 2019, 11:31 AM

My bad : Muslims exegetes did not understand the Quran.Scholars have remarked it.
Arthur Jeffery in the late 40’s of the 20th c.:

We have, however, all that the early Muslim community had, and we have fair assurance that what that early community was able to preserve of the pronouncements of its founder has been on the whole faithfully transmitted to us, even though in a fragmentary and curiously jumbled condition. Neither the Sira nor Tradition is of much help to us in this matter, and though the exegetes have preserved in their work good evidence of what was thought in their day to be the meaning of words and phrases in the Qur'an, the bewildering array of variant opinions they record on almost every crucial point of interpretation, makes it quite clear than even the very early circle of exegetes was as much in doubt as we are as to the exact meaning of many of the terms that interest us the most.

Crone, 1994 :

Three legal terms of the Qurʾān (kālala, jizya ʿan yad, kitāb in 24:33) were unintelligible to the early commentators, as were several non-legal phrases and passages (al-ṣamad, possibly al-rajīm, the mysterious letters and Sūrat Quraysh).

Madigan, 2001:

This gap between the (relatively few) legal prescriptions in the Qur'an and some of the actual laws that became established among the Muslims raises a serious question about the early history of the text or at least about the role it played in the community. If we add to this the gap in comprehension represented by the fawatih, by textual difficulties, and by various terms that were no longer understood by the commentators, we are drawn to conclude that the full text of the Qur' an played quite a limited role in the early decades of Islam.
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Reply #7283 - August 13, 2019, 12:43 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 12, 2019, 11:31 AM
My bad :....

no............no.no...noooo what you said is NOT bad dear Altara., in fact what you write here is very educational
Quote
Muslim exegetes did not understand the Quran........ Scholars have remarked it.

well Not only Muslim exegetes but Non Muslim exegetes who either converted to Islam after reading Quran or explored Quran as academic faith also DID NOT understand Quran and its origins., I can give plenty of examples on that., As far as "SCHOLARS" concerned., I only consider those people who were born and brought up in Islam or in Islamic lands and Arabic is their either primary or secondary language until their college education and did further exploration on the origins of Quran and hadith/Islamic jurisprudence as Scholars of Islam., and ..and I have very few or none.. I can count them on my 10 fingers ... we have folks who have explored tits and bits of Quran and Islam... but those writings are Not really from Scholars ..and they mostly wrote/published stuff on Islam for earning bread and butter by writing them............ Some were good and some were/are useless and waste of time .........

Quote
Arthur Jeffery in the late 40’s of the 20th c.:

We have, however, all that the early Muslim community had, and we have fair assurance that what that early community was able to preserve of the pronouncements of its founder has been on the whole faithfully transmitted to us, even though in a fragmentary and curiously jumbled condition. Neither the Sira nor Tradition is of much help to us in this matter, and though the exegetes have preserved in their work good evidence of what was thought in their day to be the meaning of words and phrases in the Qur'an, the bewildering array of variant opinions they record on almost every crucial point of interpretation, makes it quite clear than even the very early circle of exegetes was as much in doubt as we are as to the exact meaning of many of the terms that interest us the most.

Crone, 1994 :

Three legal terms of the Qurʾān (kālala, jizya ʿan yad, kitāb in 24:33) were unintelligible to the early commentators, as were several non-legal phrases and passages (al-ṣamad, possibly al-rajīm, the mysterious letters and Sūrat Quraysh).

Madigan, 2001:

This gap between the (relatively few) legal prescriptions in the Qur'an and some of the actual laws that became established among the Muslims raises a serious question about the early history of the text or at least about the role it played in the community. If we add to this the gap in comprehension represented by the fawatih, by textual difficulties, and by various terms that were no longer understood by the commentators, we are drawn to conclude that the full text of the Qur' an played quite a limited role in the early decades of Islam.

I knew what dr. Patricia Crone wrote and I also knew bit of works of dr, Arthur Jeffery., but didn't know much about that dr...Daniel Madigan ... thanks for mentioning their names. May be in another post I will put up links of what they published., But you know well that THEY WERE NOT MUSLIMS neither they are from middle east ..in other words ..their Primary, secondary education all the way up to high school were not in Arabic and they were NOT in touch with Islam...or Quran.. but they did good job..

Quote
Islam is frequently characterized as a "religion of the book," and yet Muslims take an almost entirely oral approach to their scripture. Qur'ân means "recitation" and refers to the actual words Muslims believe were revealed to Muhammad by God. Many recite the entire sacred text from memory, and it was some years after the Prophet's death that it was first put in book form. ~~Physical books play no part in Islamic ritual.~~ What does the Qur'ân mean, then, when it so often calls itself kitâb, a term usually taken both by Muslims and by Western scholars to mean "book"? To answer this question, Daniel Madigan reevaluates this key term kitâb in close readings of the Qur'ân's own declarations about itself.

More than any other canon of scripture the ~~Qur'ân is self-aware~~. It observes and discusses the process of its own revelation and reception; it asserts its own authority and claims its place within the history of revelation. Here Madigan presents a compelling semantic analysis of its self-awareness, arguing that the ~~Qur'ân understands itself not so much as a completed book, but as an ongoing process of divine "writing" and "re-writing,"~~ as God's authoritative response to actual people and circumstances.

Grasping this dynamic, responsive dimension of the Qur'ân is central to understanding Islamic religion and identity. Madigan's book will be invaluable not only to Islamicists but also to scholars who study revelation across religious boundaries.

Daniel Madigan has taught Islamic studies in the United States and Australia. He is currently developing a center for the study of religions at the Jesuits' Gregorian University, Rome.

Those are dr. Daniel Madigan words from https://press.princeton.edu/titles/7073.html and I like his statement ....... Qur'ân means "recitation" .... which I knew right from the age 4 or so

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7284 - August 14, 2019, 09:04 PM

Marc and others,

I went through "Decline and Fall of Sasanian Empire". The conclusion of the misdating of the early Eastern conquest dates is certainly very interesting. A resumé of the thesis is given on page 281 (http://www.victoriaazad.com/pdf/Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Sasanian_Empire.pdf ), adding the obvious that this shift of date to the lifetime of Mohammed has serious consequences.

How academically accepted is this redating of the Arab conquest of the Sasanian realm to 628-632?
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Reply #7285 - August 14, 2019, 10:31 PM

Quote
How academically accepted is this redating of the Arab conquest of the Sasanian realm to 628-632?

To my knowledge...nobody really discussed it (yawn...)
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Reply #7286 - August 15, 2019, 10:22 AM

Quote from: mundi on August 14, 2019, 09:04 PM
....................How academically accepted is this redating of the Arab conquest of the Sasanian realm to 628-632?..............

Quote from: Altara on August 14, 2019, 10:31 PM
To my knowledge...nobody really discussed it (yawn...)

My goodness gracious that is a terrific question from mundi and Altara just yawns .....

there is a project for you dear mundi ., And to anyone to explore that subject you must be good in Persian Language and good in Urdu and..and have good terms with Iran and Pakistan to visit to explore published works + Archaeology from that city Karbala to the end of Baluchistan close to Karachi in Pakistan....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #7287 - August 15, 2019, 11:46 AM

Nobody really discussed it because it questions the historicity of the Muslim narrative. It embarrassed them. In addition, Pourshariati is not a "member" of the family of the Quranic Studies.
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Reply #7288 - August 15, 2019, 11:19 PM

Hoyland quickly mention Parvaneh Pourshariati findings in his book in God's path but without really digging into it.

I guess the different chronicles linking the arab invasion with Muhammad didn't really help scholars who failed to explain this contradiction. Therefore, they just ignored it.
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Reply #7289 - August 16, 2019, 10:59 AM

As I presume you all know, Stephen Shoemaker has found 11 sources that describe Muhammad taking part of the invasion of Palestine. The invasion probably took place around 634, two years after he supposedly died. This is seriously challenging the Muslim traditions. If they were wrong in such an important happening, what else could be wrong?
My question is how do the academics view Shoemaker's findings?
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

zeca

Reply #7260 - August 02, 2019, 03:00 PM

mundi

Reply #7261 - August 02, 2019, 07:05 PM

Altara

Reply #7262 - August 03, 2019, 10:42 AM

Altara

Reply #7263 - August 03, 2019, 10:50 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7264 - August 03, 2019, 02:08 PM

Altara

Reply #7265 - August 03, 2019, 04:10 PM

yeezevee

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yeezevee

Reply #7267 - August 04, 2019, 12:32 PM

Marc S

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yeezevee

Reply #7269 - August 05, 2019, 08:08 AM

Marc S

Reply #7270 - August 05, 2019, 02:21 PM

mundi

Reply #7271 - August 05, 2019, 06:11 PM

Marc S

Reply #7272 - August 05, 2019, 06:38 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7273 - August 06, 2019, 12:24 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #7274 - August 08, 2019, 08:40 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #7275 - August 08, 2019, 08:48 AM

mundi

Reply #7276 - August 08, 2019, 04:31 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #7277 - August 08, 2019, 07:36 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7278 - August 08, 2019, 09:19 PM

Altara

Reply #7279 - August 11, 2019, 03:30 PM

Altara

Reply #7280 - August 11, 2019, 03:36 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7281 - August 12, 2019, 10:16 AM

Altara

Reply #7282 - August 12, 2019, 11:31 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7283 - August 13, 2019, 12:43 PM

mundi

Reply #7284 - August 14, 2019, 09:04 PM

Altara

Reply #7285 - August 14, 2019, 10:31 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7286 - August 15, 2019, 10:22 AM

Altara

Reply #7287 - August 15, 2019, 11:46 AM

Marc S

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Asbjoern1958

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