Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Religions and Gods → Qur'anic studies today

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 09:21 PM
New Britain
September 26, 2025, 12:16 PM
Lights on the way
by akay
September 26, 2025, 06:22 AM
الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
September 24, 2025, 11:55 AM
What's happened to the fo...
September 23, 2025, 12:54 AM
Muslim grooming gangs sti...
September 20, 2025, 07:39 PM
Jesus mythicism
by zeca
September 13, 2025, 10:59 PM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
September 12, 2025, 10:09 PM
Orientalism - Edward Said
by zeca
August 22, 2025, 07:41 AM
News From Syria
by zeca
August 09, 2025, 10:33 PM
Gaza assault
July 25, 2025, 05:18 PM
The origins of Judaism
by zeca
July 01, 2025, 08:10 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1778442 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 272 273 274275 276 ... 371 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8190 - November 01, 2019, 03:04 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 01, 2019, 02:51 PM
    All. It is the accepted account. It is evident for them, they consider the frame Mecca/Kaba/Uthman as what has happened.They do not even say: The present Quran comes from the collection of rashidun caliph Uthman.Because it is evident.

    Thanks.,   

    I guess  that word "ALL" means ., I take it as ALL MUSLIM SCHOLARS OF 9th century., .,

    as far as the rest of the post.,
    Quote
    what they/Muslim scholars  thought......................what other 20th century fools thought about  what 9th century Muslim folks said .......................accepted account"..... ........... evident for them................

    that is irrelevant to me dear Altara

    I guess you consider ...........Al-Ṭabarī,.......Abū Jaʿfar Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī, (born c. 839, Āmol, Ṭabaristān [Iran]—died 923,  as the most important Muslim scholar ..

    correct me if I am wrong dear Altara.. I wish you could add some real names to that word "Muslim Scholars"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8191 - November 01, 2019, 03:10 PM
    Quote
    that is irrelevant to me dear Altara


    Well...

     
    Quote
    I guess you consider ...........Al-Ṭabarī,.......Abū Jaʿfar Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī, (born c. 839, Āmol, Ṭabaristān [Iran]—died 923,  as the most important Muslim scholar ..I wish you could add some real names to that word "Muslim Scholars"


    Among the most important... There's plenty. I will not make a list here: internet is your friend.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8192 - November 01, 2019, 03:21 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 01, 2019, 03:10 PM
    Well...

     
    Among the most important... There's plenty. I will not make a list here: internet is your friend.



    thanks .,   

    indeed..  I will go and see my friend..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8193 - November 01, 2019, 03:54 PM
    Quote
    Radiocarbon dating is not reliable for artefacts which stretch for a short period of time. It is used for prehistorical stuff.


    Wrong.

    C14 dating relies on the ratio C12/C14 (radio-active). C14 decays over time.  A 1500 year time lap is perfect for the dating. The calibration curve around the year 600 to 650 is perfect also for the job.

    The very old organic artifacts  (eg 50 000 years old) contain almost no C14 anymore (all turned into C12), which makes the method inaccurate.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8194 - November 01, 2019, 03:59 PM
    Altara,

    C14

    You are right that paleography does not seem to be a reliable method of dating. Here Marx of Corpus Coranicum demonstrates based on C14 analyses that Déroche had it wrong:

    https://www.uni-frankfurt.de/71728940/EBOOK_Zeitschrift_02_2015.pdf

    See table p 27
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8195 - November 01, 2019, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 01, 2019, 03:54 PM
    Wrong.


    True. Regarding the parchment of the Quranic manuscript, radiocarbon dating is not reliable .Radiocarbon dating is not reliable as it is not precise enough.
    Quote
    C14 dating relies on the ratio C12/C14 (radio-active). C14 decays over time.  A 1500 year time lap is perfect for the dating. The calibration curve around the year 600 to 650 is perfect also for the job.


    The issue regarding the earliest Quranic manuscript is to know precisely when. It is impossible to know it with C14.

    Quote
    The very old organic artifacts  (eg 50 000 years old) contain almost no C14 anymore (all turned into C12), which makes the method inaccurate.


    Ok.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8196 - November 01, 2019, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 01, 2019, 03:59 PM
    Altara,


    Yes
    Quote
    C14

    You are right that palaeography does not seem to be a reliable method of dating. Here Marx of Corpus Coranicum demonstrates based on C14 analyses that Déroche had it wrong:

    https://www.uni-frankfurt.de/71728940/EBOOK_Zeitschrift_02_2015.pdf

    See table p 27


    Issue can be that both of the references(palaeography and C14) can be inexact too...until we have a reliable instrument, we will not be able to build scientific reasoning for the time emergence of those manuscripts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8197 - November 01, 2019, 06:22 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    Regarding the parchment of the Quranic manuscript, radiocarbon dating is not reliable .Radiocarbon dating is not reliable as it is not precise enough.


    In Marx's article is explained that C14 is reliable for the manuscripts. Comparison has been done with other manuscripts that contain a date and have been C14' ed. Conclusion is it is reliable.

    Yes, there is a time window. But there are several pre 650 manuscripts. Chances that all are misdated or only manufactered around 650 and not earlier are unrealistically small.

    What is posible is that the manuscripts were left on a stack for some decades before being used...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8198 - November 01, 2019, 06:39 PM
    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190301554521317379
    Quote
    In the Nabataean spelling of Arabic names, it is conventional to write every name with a word-final wāw. This is a leftover of the nominative ending. For example:
    ʿnmw عنمو ġānim
    mšlmw مسلمو muslim
    hnʾw هناو hāniʾ
    wʾlw والو wāʾil
    We call this phenomenon "wāwation"

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8199 - November 02, 2019, 11:13 AM
    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190585437418655744
    Quote
    In recent years access to early Quranic manuscripts has improved massively. These manuscripts, however, are often fragmentary, and require to be pieced together, and may be found in a variety of different deposits.

    Here is a list of several central digitised manuscripts.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8200 - November 02, 2019, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 01, 2019, 06:22 PM
    Altara,


    Yes

    Quote
    In Marx's article is explained that C14 is reliable for the manuscripts. Comparison has been done with other manuscripts that contain a date and have been C14' ed. Conclusion is it is reliable.


    For me it is not, as C14 give sometimes curious dating. I do not call this scientific results. 1+1= always 2.


    Quote
    Yes, there is a time window. But there are several pre 650 manuscripts. Chances that all are misdated or only manufactured around 650 and not earlier are unrealistically small.


    1/The issue is precisely the time window. And the place where they were written!
    2/ In this topic one needs unfortunately results where the words "chance" "think"  "possible" do not exist.

    Quote
    What is possible is that the manuscripts were left on a stack for some decades before being used...

    All is possible. Maybe Michael Marx has some clues... Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8201 - November 02, 2019, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 02, 2019, 11:13 AM
    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190585437418655744

    Quote
    Another manuscript is the so called 'Birmingham fragment', which made the news due to its extremely early carbondating results (568-645 CE). While we call it the Birmingham fragment, a larger portion of it is in Paris.


    Almost 100 years. C14 is not reliable, unfortunately...
    I' would "think" middle of the 8th c. The "where" is just as important
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8202 - November 02, 2019, 03:31 PM
    Podcast: Fred Donner - The Concept of 'Umma' in Early Islam

    https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/concept-umma-early-islam
    Quote
    In this keynote lecture Fred Donner of the University of Chicago addresses the nebulous, often misunderstood concept of ‘umma’ in early Islam in general, and the Qur’an in particular. Fred discusses how the word has come to signify any and all forms of community in contemporary Arabic, a range of meanings that it has held since the seventh century at least. From at least the ninth century, however, it has also had the particular signification of the universal community of Muslim believers. It is this last meaning that Fred seeks to interrogate in the earliest period and Quranic text, in order to establish whether this was part of Islamic discourse from its earliest inception, or a development of the post-conquests era. Through a brilliantly close and erudite reading he picks apart the many strands and meanings of umma in the Qur’an, thereby clearly demonstrating that the sacred work has in fact a very contingent and context-based understanding of communities’ formation, rise and fall, even as it understands them as the basic organising social unit above that of the family. In the final part of his talk Fred moves on to discuss the workshop itself, and the ways in which this research is relevant - and very much not relevant - for understanding phenomena like Daesh (IS/ISIS/ISIL) in the contemporary world.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8203 - November 02, 2019, 03:54 PM
    Basil Lourié - The Jewish and Christian Background of the Earliest Islamic Liturgical Calendar

    https://www.academia.edu/37682716/The_Jewish_and_Christian_Background_of_the_Earliest_Islamic_Liturgical_Calendar
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8204 - November 02, 2019, 06:45 PM
    Quote
    Almost 100 years. C14 is not reliable, unfortunately...


    The spread for the Birmingham manuscript doesnt make the C14 unreliable. What we know from the data is that there is 97.5 % probability that the parchment is from an animal slaughtered BEFORE 645 CE. If you have several manuscripts with same early ranges it becomes virtually impossible that none are earlier than eg 640. These things can be calculated.

    I agree that the where is just as important but it is coupled  to the when. How likely is it that a scribal centre existed in Mecca or Medina that could produce these manuscripts in eg 640?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8205 - November 02, 2019, 07:08 PM
    Quote
    How likely is it that a scribal centre existed in Mecca or Medina that could produce these manuscripts in eg 640?


    Yathrib is a swamp at that time, long after it was a step in the caravan route. Nobody had heard of it since the 4 th c.
    A "hidden" scribal centre?
    How one knows that "Medina" is Yathrib?
    The narrative, derived from a deduction about what can say the Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8206 - November 02, 2019, 07:15 PM
    Altara,

    About Yatrib an d Mecca: agree, very unlikely there was a scribal center there. But we need a scribal centre anno 630-640, bc the C14 indicates that is the production date of 5-6 manuscripts in our possession...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8207 - November 02, 2019, 07:20 PM
    Quote
    But we need a scribal centre anno 630-640, bc the C14 indicates that is the production date of 5-6 manuscripts in our possession...


    There are plenty. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8208 - November 02, 2019, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 02, 2019, 03:31 PM
    Podcast: Fred Donner - The Concept of 'Umma' in Early Islam

    https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/concept-umma-early-islam


    Donner is totally lost.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8209 - November 02, 2019, 08:50 PM
    I read on this page the words ......"how reliable" .."not reliable "....some  15 times

    Quote
    Quote
    ............Radiocarbon dating is not reliable
     .......................does not seem to be a reliable..
    ...........................dating is not reliable............

      and then we have an important question

    Quote from: Altara on November 02, 2019, 07:08 PM

    How one knows that "Medina" is Yathrib?



    To me NOTHING IS RELIABLE ANY MORE ON EARLY ISLAMIC HISTORY..  whole thing is fuzzy.. the only thing that seems to be reliable and one should explore the possibility  is   this Allah thing
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8210 - November 02, 2019, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 02, 2019, 07:08 PM
    How one knows that "Medina" is Yathrib?


    Altara - do you think that references to Medina in the tradition may have been about a real place, but not Yathrib?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8211 - November 02, 2019, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on November 02, 2019, 08:50 PM
    To me NOTHING IS RELIABLE ANY MORE ON EARLY ISLAMIC HISTORY..  whole thing is fuzzy..


    My thoughts as well.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8212 - November 02, 2019, 11:23 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 02, 2019, 10:29 PM
    Altara - do you think that references to Medina in the tradition may have been about a real place, but not Yathrib?


    Nope. The tradition really thought that Yathrib was the 'Medina' word in the Quran.They identified the two words.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8213 - November 02, 2019, 11:26 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 02, 2019, 10:30 PM
    My thoughts as well.


    Not me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8214 - November 02, 2019, 11:45 PM
    I said that Donner was lost. Yet he wrote a paper which should have alert him tremendously. But, totally circumvented, hypnotized by the narrative (like all Muslims, like all of us by another accounts) he did not realize that what he exposed was not normal. This show the power of a narrative heavily planted in the brain from which one cannot escape.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8215 - November 03, 2019, 12:06 AM
    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190773595246596101
    Quote
    Thanks for this thread! If this is "the most complete early manuscript" at 85%, then what is earliest complete manuscript?

    Quote
    Great question! The vast majority of the Quranic manuscripts we have are undated, so this is a difficult question to answer. The earliest basically complete Qurans is the Topkapı Quran edited by Altıkulaç; But it's undated, (somewhere in the 8th c.?). As for absolutely dated ones BnF Arabe 399, is the earliest complete dated Quran. It's dated 182 AH/799 CE. Déroche expresses scepticism of this date. But it's unclear to me why.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8216 - November 03, 2019, 10:36 AM
    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190773686644756480
    Quote
    Your explanation of this complicated and rather controversial history in tweets is amazing. If Muslim dynasties—and later governments—dominated the Middle East from the origins of Islam until today, why wouldn’t we have more early well-preserved complete Quran manuscripts today?

    Quote
    Well a millennium + of history and also just purely practical purposes can explain this just fine. Also know that tens of thousands of folios have not yet been digitised especially in Turkey and Russia.
    The first complete Hebrew bible is much later than the first complete Quran.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8217 - November 03, 2019, 12:23 PM
    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi - The silent Quran and the speaking Quran

    https://www.academia.edu/11562650/The_silent_Quran_and_the_speaking_Quran
    Quote
    Different constituents of the subject, the relation between the historical conflicts of early Islam and the development of its scriptural sources, have been studied on many occasions, from Frederik Schwally to Alfred-Louis de Prémare including Ignaz Goldziher, Leone Cateani, Régis Blachère, John Wansbrough, Hichem Djaït, Claude Gilliot, Harald Motzki and others. Yet almost all of these numerous investigations that have been going for the last 150 years, are almost exclusively based on Sunni sources. Shi’ism, its ancient sources and its representation of Islam’s history, studied only for a few decades by a minute number of scientific researchers, are far less exploited and remain still insufficiently known. As for the author of these lines, he modestly tries to fill that gap by adopting a new angle of approach to these issues, that is, by examining some ancient Shi’i works of great importance that have however remained neglected.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8218 - November 03, 2019, 01:09 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 03, 2019, 12:23 PM
    Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi - The silent Quran and the speaking Quran

    https://www.academia.edu/11562650/The_silent_Quran_and_the_speaking_Quran


    Hi zeca..  just curious to know... do you by chance know that  man dr. Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi ?? .,  does he live in France or England?  and i am glad to read that twitter thread  where Karim@Vakil_e_Roaya  asks question
    Quote from: zeca on November 03, 2019, 12:06 AM
    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190773595246596101 

    Quote
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Vakil_e_Roaya/status/1190590148586745857

    Replying to  @Tweetistorian
    Thanks for this thread! If this is "the most complete early manuscript" at 85%, then what is earliest complete manuscript?

     

    and this is a good one from that tweets    https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1190773613311528961
     
    Quote
    The next Quran that comes to mind that is complete and dated is a completely different type of Quran, the first Naskh Quran. The Ibn al-Bawwāb Quran is dated to 391 AH/1000-1001, so a bit over 200 years later.

    It's been beautifully digitised:


    which led me to that The Ibn al-Bawwab Qur'an from Chester beatty Digital collections  and that took me to that original publication on  THE UNIQUE IBN AL-BAWWAB MANUSCRIPT AT CHESTER-BEATTY  by  dr. RIce  pubed in 1955

    well going in circles.,   and It does not matter what I read and whose publication I read., NOTHING BEATS READING PRESENT QURAN.,  And and I actually wondered about that question of complete Quran the present book and its first publication
    Quote
      ..  "the most complete early manuscript" at 85%...

    some 10 years ago when I started reading Quran line by line verse by verses and surah by surah ..

    And I was thinking that a loooooong time back., IF I  REMOVE SOME SELECTED VERSES  FROM QURAN SUCH AS 10 to 15%   FROM DIFFERENT CHAPTERS., then whole story of Islam  will become different ... I mean we are just talking removing 10% of 6200 verses or so .,    from that day on wards    good by faiths..fuck it all ...,  I HAVE MY OWN FAITH  AND I AM MY OWN PROPHET ..  and i will read faith books my own way...

    and thank you for your wonderful contribution at this forum.. you are relentless

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8219 - November 03, 2019, 01:16 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on November 03, 2019, 01:09 PM
    Hi zeca..  just curious to know... do you by chance know that  man dr. Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi ?? .,  does he live in France or England?


    He lives in France and most of the papers on his academia.edu page are in French. I don’t know much about him but maybe Altara could tell you more.
    Which side are you on?
  • Previous page 1 ... 272 273 274275 276 ... 371 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »