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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #270 - May 03, 2015, 01:14 PM

    Quote from: Zaotar
    Man I am going to lift that Peter brown quote for my q 105 essay, it's exactly my point about the quraysh!

    That entire preface is a rather brilliant summary of current thinking on what was happening in Europe at around the time Islam was developing in the Middle East. Most of it, with a few pages missing, can be read in the preview on the link I gave above.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #271 - May 03, 2015, 04:29 PM

    Just read it ... Brown is truly a God ... the way he describes the construction of Western European identities during late antiquity, and relates it to the construction of Arabian identities is exactly what I was trying to get at in my essay on the Quraysh, but in a far narrower and more rudimentary way.  Really a mind-blowing way of looking at it, one continuous process ... one methodological approach ... normal laws of history.  Older scholarship has been misled by these faux genealogies/histories, and it sounds like they have largely been disentangled on the Western European side and reinterpreted as anachronistic identity formation, but are still lingering on the Near Eastern front.  I'll definitely work that in the essay, it's a great way to explain to the otherwise-skeptical reader that when we are talking about genealogy and social identities in late antiquity, we are presumptively talking about constructions (often built on religious concepts) that are then presented as historical facts with an elaborate background.  Not the other way around!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #272 - May 03, 2015, 08:58 PM

    Quote
    Brown is truly a God

    Well he certainly seems like a wiser and nicer god than most.

    His talk on the Silk Road in Late Antiquity:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Wi4_oWo_U
    And launching his new book The Ransom of the Soul  (review here)
    Quote
    Marking a departure in our understanding of Christian views of the afterlife from 250 to 650 CE, The Ransom of the Soul explores a revolutionary shift in thinking about the fate of the soul that occurred around the time of Rome’s fall. Peter Brown describes how this shift transformed the Church’s institutional relationship to money and set the stage for its domination of medieval society in the West.

    https://vimeo.com/125158810
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #273 - May 03, 2015, 09:51 PM

    He reminds me of Yoda. Not a bad thing at all.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #274 - May 04, 2015, 08:18 AM

    Quote
    vThe Social Construction of Reality is a 1966 book about the sociology of knowledge by Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann.

    The work introduced the term social construction into the social sciences and was strongly influenced by the work of Alfred Schütz. The central concept of Social Construction of Reality is that persons and groups interacting in a social system create, over time, concepts or mental representations of each other's actions, and that these concepts eventually become habituated into reciprocal roles played by the actors in relation to each other. When these roles are made available to other members of society to enter into and play out, the reciprocal interactions are said to be institutionalized. In the process of this institutionalization, meaning is embedded in society. Knowledge and people's conception (and belief) of what reality is becomes embedded in the institutional fabric of society. Reality is therefore said to be socially constructed.

    In 1998 the International Sociological Association listed this work as the fifth most important sociological book of the 20th century.[1]

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Construction_of_Reality

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #275 - May 04, 2015, 02:59 PM

    some questions that bother at the moment


    - does any one has any recent publication from Patricia Crone, I read a paper she wrote in 2010, about the Pre Islamic religion of Mecca, and honestly i was surprised, it seems she is no more a revisionist but rather a new traditionalist, any thoughts about that.

    - is there any serious study that show there was any interpolation, addition after Uthman codex ? 

    - i was watching a video of Fred Donner, and it seems he is not totally convinced that the change of Qibla happened in the Medina , and he has alluded, it may be a later addition, any compelling theory.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #276 - May 04, 2015, 03:27 PM

    I'm not sure about how recent as I don't keep up with her, but I know there's a few things by Patricia Crone linked here, and, knowing the people who contributed to this list, there's probably a lot of other cool resources, too: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27715.0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #277 - May 04, 2015, 03:30 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP5O_NUhrK0

    Islam has a huge pr and actual campaign going on asserting its truthiness.

    Maybe it is extremely difficult to get and keep a clear perspective?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #278 - May 04, 2015, 04:35 PM

    does any one has any recent publication from Patricia Crone, I read a paper she wrote in 2010, about the Pre Islamic religion of Mecca, and honestly i was surprised, it seems she is no more a revisionist but rather a new traditionalist, any thoughts about that.

    Here's an up to date publications list for Patricia Crone:

    https://www.hs.ias.edu/crone/publications

    This article, which I think I've already linked to on the thread, was published in 2010, so I assume it's the one you're referring to. I'd really need to re-read it though.

    The Religion of the Qurʾānic Pagans: God and the Lesser Deities

    Most of the more recent articles don't seem to be freely available online yet, apart from this which again I've already linked to here.

    The Book of Watchers in the Qur'an
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #279 - May 04, 2015, 05:20 PM



    I'm not sure if I've already put this link up.

    Patricia Crone and Martin Hinds - God's Caliph

    https://ahadithstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/crone-gods-caliph.pdf

    Reviewed here

    http://gracchii.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/review-gods-caliph-religious-authority.html
    Quote
    ....
    Basically the first chapters of the book concern themselves with the distinction between two terms, two ways of describing the caliphs, which in a sense are competing concepts. Firstly there is the description of the Caliph as Khalifat Allah- deputy of Allah and secondly the description of the Caliph as Khalifat rasul Allah, deputy or successor of the messenger of Allah. The first description puts the Caliph on the same level as Muhammed- they are servants of God on earth. The second implies that Caliphal authority descends from Muhammed- that he was the only genuine servant of God on earth and that authority descends straight from him. Crone and Hinds contend that the first description is a more original description- based on a large sample of the available evidence they argue that the early Caliphs did not see themselves as successors of the prophet but saw themselves as deputies of God. In a letter written by Al-Walid II, the authors find the idea that prophets were used by God in the past to advance his message and now after the final revelation of that message to Muhammed, Caliphs are used by God to secure his message in the world. Caliphs and Prophets are thereby made equal in the eyes of God- and they cite further evidence from letters by al-Hajjaj suggesting that in God's eyes one's deputy is better than one's messenger. The argument essentially revolves around making the Caliph the equal and not the inferior of Muhammed and consequently taking away the Prophet's capital P.

    Hinds and Crone develop this argument by attempting to reconceive of the idea of the Sunna of the prophet in the same light. They argue that the earliest understandings of the Sunna of the Prophet were as a kind of unlocalised justice, custom- they compare it to the concept of mos majorum in Roman law- essentially custom. They argue that where we see the Sunna of the Prophet cited is in times of rebellion, where the rebellious are making a point about the injustice of certain rulers by citing a vague concept of justice. Therefore it is their argument that the early Islamic concept of law was much more Caliphal than it was later. That early Islamic law was the interpretation mandated by the Caliph of the texts left by the prophet- agents of the Caliph like governors and administrators could too arbitrate but it was the role of the Caliph that was central to the whole idea of Islamic law.

    The crucial area of this argument is that Crone and Hinds suggest that as the Islamic empire grew and as Islam grew, the ability of the Caliph to make those decisions for his far flung empire diminished. People in local villages increasingly went to elders and local men who were experts in what had happened in the past and could therefore provide them with a guide. Such elders began the process of transition into scholars of Islamic law, men who acquired power and later wrote the earliest Hadith, sayings of the prophet. Indeed Crone and Hinds argue that the earliest Hadith were not sayings of the prophet but sayings of local scholars.
    ....

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #280 - May 04, 2015, 06:15 PM

    some questions that bother at the moment


    - does any one has any recent publication from Patricia Crone, I read a paper she wrote in 2010, about the Pre Islamic religion of Mecca, and honestly i was surprised, it seems she is no more a revisionist but rather a new traditionalist, any thoughts about that.

    - is there any serious study that show there was any interpolation, addition after Uthman codex ? 

    - i was watching a video of Fred Donner, and it seems he is not totally convinced that the change of Qibla happened in the Medina , and he has alluded, it may be a later addition, any compelling theory.


    Responding to your questions one by one, if I can help,

    Crone's article is not focused on Mecca, and seems to view the Qur'anic mushrikun as some sort of deviant monotheistic angel worshipers, not as genuine pagans.  I actually think Crone has missed the boat on the biggest revolution in Qur'anic scholarship since Wansbrough, which is that it has rather decisively been shown that the Qur'an originated from Christian texts and tropes that were 'Judaized,' in polemical fashion.  That is why her thesis in Hagarism was completely wrong.  She is great at the later Islamic history, but her Qur'anic scholarship has consistently come up short in my book.  That's why she hates guys like Donner and Luxenberg, and has so bitterly criticized them.  The problem is that she applies 'historical' analysis to a text and situation that requires more of a religious studies approach.  She keeps going down cul-de-sacs because she doesn't adequately account for the degree to which the Qur'an is a *palimpsest* of the ideologies and contributions of different groups, created over time.  In short, Wansbrough may be completely wrong about the time period (I think the Qur'an was in near-complete state by around 660 or so, subject to minor orthographical wrangling, surah order, different readings, etc), but in my book he's completely right about how the text was formed.

    As to the Uthmanic codex, there are threads on it, but I think the problem is that it's already heavily interpolated in the form we first see it.  If the question is are there any early Qur'anic manuscripts that show obvious interpolations in the standard Qur'anic text, the answer is yes, the Sanaa I palimpsest shows this, but the interpolations that it shows are not really that exciting -- they are mostly clarifications, added short bits of text to make the verse divisions and rhymes work, etc.  Beyond that, we don't really have any earlier Qur'anic manuscripts, and so there's no way from a manuscript perspective (as opposed to an analytical perspective) to assess interpolations (with very few exceptions -- 4:176 is a blatant interpolation, for example, and there's some evidence that the very early BNF 328 manuscript confirms that.

    On the Qibla, there is a prominent theory, which I personally think is almost certainly correct, that it was not changed in "Medina" but rather was changed in stages by different groups of believers as part of the project to place Islamic origins back in Mecca; this would have taken place around the mid 7th century or so, but it took decades to be fully enforced in different areas and mosques.  There is a great article by Robert Kerr on this, but it's entirely in German ... I think I posted it earlier in this thread.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #281 - May 04, 2015, 07:41 PM

    Thanks Zaotar.

    I see you've put Medina in quotes - would you be sceptical about the narrative of an original Muslim, or proto-Muslim, state based in Medina?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #282 - May 04, 2015, 08:11 PM

    I do not have any answers on that, except that it is not a good explanation for how Early Islam developed.  Unlike Mecca, I don't think it's obvious fiction.  But how it worked, what role it played, is quite unclear to me.  Something like the traditional version could still be true when it comes to Medina, it could have been a prominent city where a historical Muhammad headed up a coalition of believers.  But it is all very hazy.  There are other attractive possible explanations, and the generic nature of the name medina is itself quite suspicious ...  I suspect that the name reflects a possible semantic transition from one city (Jerusalem?) to another.  But I haven't seen any compelling explanation of how that would have worked.  I really think that analysis of early quranic texts still needs to be substantially improved before we will have a better understanding of what, exactly, happened.

    I will say that I think the "Medinan" ideology is probably the OLDER ideology, ironically, and the Hijazi Meccan ideology is laid over it.  So whatever the Medinan ideology represents, exactly, I think it is more archaic, and the failure to see that it roughly goes (1) Arabic dialectal preaching of Syriac Christianity / (2) 'Medinan' / (3) 'Quraysh', in terms of Qur'anic compositional layers, has resulted in a great deal of confusion.  If anything the Syriac Christian layer is much easier to understand (since we have such great linguistic and textual resources), as is the Quraysh (since it's later and the ideology is fairly transparent) ... it's the so-called Medina part that remains quite murky.  I suppose an interesting exercise might be to invert the traditional understanding and analyze the latest layers of the Qur'an as jihadi Muhammadanism, the middle layers as 'a sedentary urban Arab state comes into power, and starts developing its own Arab scripture,' and the earliest stage as Arabic Christianity in the Nabatean region under the Byzantine thumb and shadow of Jerusalem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #283 - May 04, 2015, 08:43 PM

    Speaking of historians, Sean Anthony just published an abstract for his new paper, sounds pretty awesome.

    https://www.academia.edu/12230900/_Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_Mena%E1%B8%A5em_and_the_Paraclete_New_Light_on_Ibn_Is%E1%B8%A5%C4%81q_s_d._130_767_Arabic_Version_of_John_15_23-16_1_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_forthcoming_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #284 - May 04, 2015, 08:52 PM

    Quote from: Sean Anthony
    Biblical prooftexts for the prophethood of Muḥammad play a prominent role in early Muslim interest in the Bible. This study re-examines the earliest known attempt by Muslims to find such a biblical prooftext in the New Testament – the Arabic version of Jesus’s sermon on the ‘advocate/comforter’ (Gk. paráklētos) in John 15:23-16 found in Ibn Isḥāq’s Kitāb al-Maghāzī. Key to understanding Ibn Isḥāq’s adaptation of the Johannine text, this study argues, is the Christian Palestinian Aramaic Gospel behind it as well as the climate of late-antique apocalypticism and messianism out of which Ibn Isḥāq’s distinctively Islamic version emerged. This study concludes with an interpretation of Qurʾān 61:6, which appears to claim that Jesus prophesied a future prophet named Aḥmad.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #285 - May 04, 2015, 08:52 PM

    Jesus Christ slow down! I'm trying to keep up! Grrr  finmad

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #286 - May 04, 2015, 09:21 PM

    I suppose an interesting exercise might be to invert the traditional understanding and analyze the latest layers of the Qur'an as jihadi Muhammadanism, the middle layers as 'a sedentary urban Arab state comes into power, and starts developing its own Arab scripture,' and the earliest stage as Arabic Christianity in the Nabatean region under the Byzantine thumb and shadow of Jerusalem.

    Presumably this would fit in with the known historical transitions of the early 7th century - from Byzantine rule to the Persian occupation of Syria and Palestine, and later the Byzantine defeat of the Persians. So the 'sedentary urban Arab state' forms between these events, maybe occupying some kind of power vacuum produced by the Persian conquest, and then as Byzantine rule is restored a jihadi migration starts to move into the space vacated by the Persians, with corresponding ideological changes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #287 - May 04, 2015, 09:37 PM

    That's a perfect statement of my current line of thinking Zeca.  You can see why it's not as hard to show the beginning and end portions of the process; it's the middle that is most difficult to explain, and where a historical Muhammad would have been most closely involved.  I generally fill in the middle, mentally speaking, with something like Shoemaker's hypothesis.  Lately I have been pondering if Muhammad didn't in some sense see himself as the messianic Jesus .... not a Jewish Messiah (Crone's hypothesis in Hagarism) but a straight up Christian Messiah (paraclete?), destined to usher in the millenium.  MHMD as Christological title.  I tend to think this would have come about in response to the *Persian* onslaught, and this has been obscured by our secondary assumptions about Muslims being hostile towards the Byzantines.  Originally, I think they might have been aligned, and ultimately ended up in the driver's seat .... then didn't give it back.  In this scenario, you have a relatively urban pro-Byzantine pro-Jewish anti-Persian movement (call it Medinan), which then (with the jihadi influx) becomes overtaken by a sort of tidal wave of 'Arab' migrants, and their version of the older ideology (which I would call the Quraysh, and their Meccan fiction, which rewrote the history of the older believers, less eschatology/Jerusalem, more Hijaz and long-term legal rule).  So, ironically, I think the traditional Qur'anic chronology could be 180 degrees backwards ... the Medinan surahs are actually later jihadi stuff that overtook the more sedentary and urbanized middle movement.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #288 - May 05, 2015, 02:01 AM

    Thanks Guys for your responses, I need some time to read all this.

    Just a question and don't take it as a personal attack,  I am very interested in the early Muhammed Movement, but how to be sure that some theories are not bias toward a particular interpretation,   how do we know the scholar is neutral, I was surprised when people attacked Donner just when he show that the early conquest was not only bloodshed, but there was more to it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #289 - May 05, 2015, 06:09 AM

    I'd be surprised if anyone took that as an attack. It's a very reasonable question.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #290 - May 05, 2015, 11:36 PM

    how do we know the scholar is neutral, I was surprised when people attacked Donner just when he show that the early conquest was not only bloodshed, but there was more to it.

    If we're talking "attacks" - sorry to break in here, but I'll need to distinguish between "attacks" on a person, as opposed to challenges against that person's work. For instance I don't see your comment as an attack on anyone...

    Will more post on that distinction elsewhere, as that's VERY tangential to this thread!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #291 - May 07, 2015, 10:03 PM



    An interesting review of Robert Hoyland's book In God's Path

    http://www.booksandculture.com/articles/2014/novdec/foundation-and-empire.html
    Quote
    ....
    In God's Path is a thoughtful and nuanced guide to an age that was far more complex than we might imagine from older accounts. Most valuably of all, Hoyland distinguishes clearly between strictly contemporary sources, in which he is thoroughly immersed, and the exalted legends penned centuries afterwards. Only when we have finished the book do we realize just how very minimally Muhammad himself featured in the story.
    ....

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #292 - May 08, 2015, 11:45 PM

    Chock full of lolz, I recommend skimming this radical linguistic theory.

    https://www.academia.edu/12173189/_2015e_THE_ARABIC_ORIGINS_OF_ENGLISH_AND_INDO-EUROPEAN_DEMOCRATIC_TERMS_A_RADICAL_LINGUISTIC_THEORY_APPROACH_pp.38-68
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #293 - May 09, 2015, 09:31 AM

    Quote
    Firstly there is the description of the Caliph as Khalifat Allah- deputy of Allah and secondly the description of the Caliph as Khalifat rasul Allah, deputy or successor of the messenger of Allah. The first description puts the Caliph on the same level as Muhammed- they are servants of God on earth. The second implies that Caliphal authority descends from Muhammed- that he was the only genuine servant of God on earth and that authority descends straight from him.


    This sounds like a direct theft of the xian disputes of the time, is the son equal to or not the father, and how these were played out in the disputes between the Western Roman Papal ideas and the Orthodox patriarchal ideas.  Both were around in Syria!

    So what was happening, was (were) the caliphate (s?) a new empire or variations on existing empires?  What were the effects and legacies of Persia on this marinade?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #294 - May 09, 2015, 09:35 AM

    Is Islam actually a christian sect?  Is the IS bit in Islam referring to Jesus?  And Mo does just mean praised?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #295 - May 09, 2015, 11:41 AM

    Is Islam actually a christian sect?  Is the IS bit in Islam referring to Jesus?  And Mo does just mean praised?

    I say yes.,  

     If we remove all hadith junk  and if we remove  ALL THAT PERSONAL NONSENSE that is put in to Quran for  the sake of so-called "Muhammad  The Praised one".,   then  yes.,  as an assertive supporting document for   Abrahamic  religion, Quran tells the readers  "that Islam is nothing but a christian sect"   Apart from all earlier Jewish/Christian  stories that is put in to Arabic language.,  what Quran  has is one very important statement and it often highlights it.. That is

    Christ is NOT son  of god or god  but a Prophet similar to  Moses  and many others whose names we see in Quran

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #296 - May 09, 2015, 01:01 PM

    Quote
    Arianism[pronunciation?] is a nontrinitarian Christian belief that asserts that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is entirely distinct from and subordinate to the God the Father. Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius, which are in opposition to mainstream Christian teachings on the nature of the Trinity and the nature of Christ. It was first attributed to Arius (c. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt. The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father. This belief is grounded in the Gospel of John (14:28)[1] passage: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

    The trinitarian viewpoint was formally affirmed by the first two Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Church. All mainstream branches of Christianity consider this teaching to be heterodox and heretical. The Ecumenical First Council of Nicaea of 325 deemed it to be a heresy. At the regional First Synod of Tyre in 335, Arius was exonerated.[2] After his death, he was again anathemised and pronounced a heretic again at the Ecumenical First Council of Constantinople of 381.[3] The Roman Emperors Constantius II (337–361) and Valens (364–378) were Arians or Semi-Arians.

    Arianism is also often used to refer to other nontrinitarian theological systems of the 4th century, which regarded Jesus Christ—the Son of God, the Logos—as either a created being (as in Arianism proper and Anomoeanism), or as neither uncreated nor created in the sense other beings are created (as in Semi-Arianism).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

    Give it a couple of hundred more years and further permutations like the Islamic one are predictable.  There were nasty civil wars about the question is the son equal to the father.  Islam arguably is another variant.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #297 - May 12, 2015, 08:04 PM

    Forthcoming conference

    Early Islam: The Sectarian Milieu of Late Antiquity?

    http://www.4enoch.org/wiki3/index.php?title=Early_Islam:_The_Sectarian_Milieu_of_Late_Antiquity%3F_/_Fourth_Nangeroni_Meeting_(2015_Milan),_conference
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #298 - May 12, 2015, 11:04 PM

    Epic new paper just published by Guillaume Dye today.  Haven't read yet, but it's long and looks awesome.  It's being presented in connection with the conference Zeca links above.

    https://www.academia.edu/12358270/The_Quran_and_its_Hypertextuality_in_Light_of_Redaction_Criticism
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #299 - May 13, 2015, 06:16 AM

    " Hence the following dilemma: we cannot say that the general framework given by the Muslim
    tradition is right and, at the same time, take seriously the Qur’ānic text. If we take the Qur’ān seriously (namely, if we do not bind it on the Procrustean bed that Muslim tradition prepared for it), we should indeed admit at least one of the following scenarios.
    First hypothesis: the Ḥiǧāz at the time of the Prophet had a level of Christian presence and literary
    culture which was comparable to the cities or monasteries of Syria and Palestine: there were Christians in the Ḥiǧāz, Christian ideas were known, and it was also possible to meet there the kind of scribe who was able to write such texts as (among other examples) surah 3, 5, 18 and 19 (and this pertains to the so-called Meccan and Medinan suras).
    Second hypothesis: at least in part (namely, all the time, or only before the emigration to Yaṯrib), Muḥammad’s career did not take place in the Ḥiǧāz, but further north, for example in Trans-Jordan or Palestine.
    Third hypothesis: at the time of the Prophet, there was a Christian presence in the Ḥiǧāz, but the situation was not comparable to Syria or Palestine, or even to what we find further north in the Arabian Peninsula. It was, rather, the subject of a typical process of acculturation. Therefore, if some scholarly Qur’ānic passages were written at this time (or earlier?), the “scholars” who composed them were certainly people situated further north (but maybe also in al-Ḥīra), with whom the Ḥiǧāzī Arabs maintained relations.
     Fourth hypothesis: we should disconnect, more decidedly, the redaction of the Qur’ān and Muḥammad’s career, and acknowledge that a (more or less substantial) part of the Qur’ān was written after the death of Muḥammad (and maybe also, for a smaller part, after ‘Uṯmān?).

    Regarding the scholarly passages of the Qur’ān, a model combining the last two hypotheses seems the most plausible solution. "


    that's all good, but how to prove that, can manuscript study sheds more light on that ?
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