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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #600 - November 30, 2015, 02:45 PM

    What do you guys think Jonathan brown article on the Birmingham manuscripts.

    Quote
    How should rationalists deal with dogmatism? – The Case of the Birmingham Quran Pages

    POSTED IN: ISLAMIC HISTORY | | — SEPTEMBER 1, 2015 4:35 PM |

     
    One of the reasons I do not to write about early Islamic history is that I find it very difficult to manage the constant clash of faith claims and appeals to empirical evidence.  When it comes to religion in general, Islam in particular, and the origins of Islam even more particularly, scholars find it difficult to recognize how their non-rational commitments direct their reasoning.  Being able to set aside those commitments is even harder.

    Of course, I’m talking about the dogmatic belief found amongst revisionist historians of early Islam.  This school of thought is committed at the level of first principles to the belief that religious traditions pass through a process of fundamental change in their early years, transforming from the original teachings of a prophet or some other revered figures into an orthodox, sacred tradition, which then turns back to cover up and repaint those early years in the colors of orthodoxy.  This means that revisionists believe that, whatever else is true or untrue in the world, a religion’s autobiography must be false.  Its founding scriptures must not be historical intact.  All must have been been altered or evolved.

    Of course, this is not to say that religions do not evolve or go through processes of revision, even of editing their own histories.  Of course they do.  But they do not all do so in the same way.  Just because the Christian scriptural tradition went through a certain process does not mean that every other scriptural tradition must have gone through that same process or even a remotely similar process.  We know that a great deal of revision occurred in the Islamic tradition; it’s obvious from all the forgery of Hadiths and historical reports, as even the briefest glimpse at Sunni-Shiite debates makes immediately clear, and as Muslim scholars have always admitted.  But this does not seem to have been the case with the Quran.  The book does not bear traces of any significant alternation over time, and the latest studies by Western scholars have made it clear that, barring some new, astounding discovery, the Muslim version of how and when the Quran was written should be accepted.[1]

    The Muslim version should be accepted not because Islam is God’s true religion and therefore Muslims’ claims must be true.  It should be accepted because it requires fewer leaps of faith than alternatives.  It holds that a man named Muhammad, claiming to be a prophet, uttered a series of revelations between 610 and 632 CE and that, around the year 650 Ce, these statements were collected into the Quran.  Aside from divergences in vowelling and a few word replacements here and there (variations preserved for later historians by fastidious medieval Muslim scholars), that text does not bear any traces of alternation since.  Whether or not someone chooses to believe that the Quran is revelation irrelevant; the text comes from around the mid 600’s CE.

    Revisionist historians of early Islam, however, cannot accept this.  It simply cannot be, in their eyes, that a scriptural text can actually come from the time and place that it claims.  Whatever must be believed, however absurd, we must conclude that its history has involved alteration, fraud and covering up.

    The most recent display of this dogmatism has come in comments made about the pages of an early copy of the Quran found in the library of the University of Birmingham.  Radio carbon dating has shown that the pages very likely date from between 568 and 645 CE.  The text on these pages corresponds to the canonical versions of the Quran and even include a decorative division between chapters (which was drawn along with the writing, since the lines are spaced especially to fit the divider) and even markers between verses (also written at the same time as the text, since the spacing between words at the end/beginning of verses is greater than that between other words in order to fit the verse dividers).

    Birmingham Quran manuscript.jpgAn image of the a page from the Birmingham Quran.

    The Muslim narrative of the origins of the Quran holds that the revelation was written down by scribes as it came down to the Prophet between roughly 610 CE, when his prophethood began, and 632, when he died.  A semiofficial copy of the holy book was compiled within two years of the Prophet’s death by the first caliph, Abu Bakr, and that version was then later used as part of an official compilation and promulgation of the Quran by the third caliph, Uthman, in around 650 CE.[1]

    A number of scholars who have interests in early Islamic history, particularly the popular author Tom Holland, have stated that the carbon dating of the Birmingham Quran pages suggests that the Quran actually predates the life of Muhammad.  In fact, he argues, it suggests that the Quran dates from “a good deal before” Muhammad’s career.  By this he means that, as opposed to being a sacred text that was edited and composed after the founding figure of the religion (the previous revisionist claim), it was actually written before Islam’s founding and – presumably – adopted by Muhammad to express his teachings.

    Holland’s argument rests on several assumptions:

    1)    That the parchment used for these Quran pages was produced at the same time as it was used for writing the text down (the equivalent of someone producing a piece of paper and then using that piece of paper, let’s say, in the same year to write something)

    2)    That the pages in question were written at the earlier end of the window give by the carbon dating and not the latter part, which would put them right in the career of Muhammad

    3)    That the Quran not only predates Muhammad’s life as a general text, but that it, in fact, word-for-word predates his life, along with divisions between chapters in the Quran and even markers between verses.

     

    These are highly unreasonable assumptions.  Let’s look at each one in turn:

    Parchment was very expensive to produce and was frequently re-used after the ink was washed off.  Let’s take a more recent example free from the controversy of religion.  The Swiss Federal Charter of 1291, a founding document of Switzerland, includes the date of 1291 as its date of composition, but carbon dating has dated the parchment as having been produced between 1252 and 1312.  Scholars have come to agreement that the text was actually written in the 1300’s sometime.  So, even according to this document’s own claim, the parchment could have been produced almost forty years before the writing occurred.  If we go by scholarly consensus, it could have been produced a century earlier!  When he was challenged on the possibility that the parchment of the Birmingham Quran pages predated the writing, Holland simply replied that back then parchment was “generally” used “almost immediately.” (I wonder what evidence he has for this claim).
    Holland wants us to assume that, within the 77 year window given by the carbon dating, these Quran pages were written in the first 42 years.  The 35 years after that would put the writing of these pages, shockingly, right during the career of the man who was supposedly composing them (i.e., between 610-632) or, even more shockingly!, in the 13 years after Muhammad’s death, exactly when the current theories of the Quran’s origins says that semi-official copies of the Quran were being produced.
    Many Muslim traditions hold that it was not the Prophet who put the chapters of the Quran in their canonical order, and even that it was not the Prophet who put the many verses of the Quran together in order to form the chapters.  Rather, this was done after his death by the committees that compiled the official versions of the Quran around 650.  The majority of Muslim scholars have disagreed with this and hold that the verses and chapters were ordered by the Prophet (NB: a study of an early Quran copy from Sana’a has shown that ordering the verses and chapters predates the official Quran compiled by Uthman).[2]  If the Birmingham Quran pages predate Muhammad’s career by decades, what this means is that not only did the themes and ideas in the Quran predate Islam, but that the very text of the Quran, word for word, predates Islam.  Not only that, even the Quran’s chapter and verse divisions predate the Prophet’s life!  This would be astounding, since Muslim tradition holds that not even the official copies of the Quran disseminated by Uthman had chapter and verse dividers.[3]
     

    So, Holland makes a proposition:  we should accept that, sometime within, and only within, the period between 568 and 610 CE pieces of parchment were produced from animal skin and then immediately used to write the text of the Quran, word for word as it would be adopted by Muslims decades later, along with verse and chapters divisions, which Muslims would then forget about when they issued their own official versions of the Quran (no doubt to cover of their reliance on earlier material).  This would result in a startling, revolutionary scholarly discovery: the Quran actually predates the career of Muhammad!

    I have another proposition, one that I think requires fewer leaps of faith: that pieces of parchment were produced from animal skin sometime between 568 and 645 CE, probably later rather than earlier, and that sometime in the decades after the Prophet’s death in around 632, after the chapter and verse divisions of the Quran had been to be formalized and written down in copies of the holy book, someone used these pieces of parchment to write down a copy of the Quran.  This would involve absolutely no interesting scholarly development.  It would mean that the Quran, which Western scholars have long generally held dates from around the time of the Prophet and certainly before 692 CE, dates from around the time of the Prophet and certainly before 692 CE.

    I think this is a much more reasonable proposition.  Unless… the Quran comes from the future…


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #601 - November 30, 2015, 04:16 PM

    The Birmingham Quran is just one piece of Quran, and I don't really understand the fame it gets. I mean really, it's true that it fits the traditional Islamic better than it does to whatever new statements they have. Both muslims and non-muslims jump the gun over nothing.

    I'm pretty sure if you dig around Arabia a little more, there would be more than just several pages of parchment, you might actually find better stuff. Until then, don't constantly revise the history over one-two pages of Quran. Find hundreds of them (to reduce errors) and then make your conclusion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #602 - November 30, 2015, 04:46 PM

    Well, we can "maybe" until the cows come home. And that seems to be all these "scholars" are really able to do given the lack of real evidence.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #603 - November 30, 2015, 05:14 PM

    Here's Tom Holland debating Jonathan Brown: https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/615572588547411972

    Edit: to get a sense of Jonathan Brown's apologism listen to him on the age of Aisha towards the end of that broadcast.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #604 - November 30, 2015, 06:28 PM

    Well, we can "maybe" until the cows come home. And that seems to be all these "scholars" are really able to do given the lack of real evidence.

     

    Have you thought about weighing in to the debate ?

    Given your background if you went back to school for a few more years you could become an islamic studies scholar and do your own research in this area.



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #605 - November 30, 2015, 06:30 PM

    Here's Tom Holland debating Jonathan Brown: https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/615572588547411972

    Edit: to get a sense of Jonathan Brown's apologism listen to him on the age of Aisha towards the end of that broadcast.

     

    I watched that debate before.

    To be honest I think Jonathan demonstrated himself as more knowledgeable on the topic than Tom Holland.  Klingschor said the same thing when I tweeted him about it.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #606 - November 30, 2015, 07:00 PM

    This exchange? https://mobile.twitter.com/skepticalsword/status/584143403375587328

    I'm sure he is one of the top academic experts on hadiths but the apologetics still make me feel uncomfortable.

    The five prayers a day argument:

    Jonathan Brown: https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.a.brown.3/posts/10153551002194850?_rdr=p

    Tom Holland: http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/272668943/A-Reply-to-Jonathan-Brown
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #607 - November 30, 2015, 07:11 PM

    ^

    No it was a different twitter exchange where I tweeted the specific debate at kling and kling said that Brown was more knowledgeable than Holland on the topic of hadiths.

    It makes sense. Brown has published several peer reviewed papers to journals on hadiths where as Holland has not even submitted one regarding hadiths.

    With Brown I try to see his academic work as separate from his occasional apologist stuff.  Brown recently harassed an exmuslim on facebook and called him an idiot and then quickly deleted his own comments.







    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #608 - November 30, 2015, 07:12 PM

    I was referring to this exchange.


    https://twitter.com/klingschor/status/616132585178005504

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #609 - November 30, 2015, 07:22 PM

    Might as well add Jonathan Brown's academic papers on hadiths to this thread while we are at it.

    How We Know Early Ḥadīth Critics Did Matn Criticism and Why It’s So Hard to Find
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/How-We-Know-Early-Hadith-Critics-Did-Matn-Criticism-and-Why-Its-So-Hard-to-Find.pdf

    Even If It’s Not True It’s True: Using Unreliable Ḥadīths in Sunni Islam
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Even-If-Its-Not-True-Its-True-The-Use-of-Unreliable-Hadiths-in-Sunni-Islam.pdf

    New Data on the Delateralization of Ḍād and its Merger with Żā’ in Classical Arabic
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/New-Data-on-the-Delateralization-of-Dad-and-Za.pdf

    Criticism of the Proto-Hadīth Canon: al-Dāraquṭnī’s Adjustment of the Ṣaḥīḥayn
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JIS-Daraqutni-article-in-PDF-form.pdf


    The Social Context of Pre-Islamic Poetry: Poetic Imagery and Social Reality in the Mu’allaqat
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Pre-Islamic-Poetry.pdf

    The Last Days of al-Ghazzālī and the Tripartite Division of the Sufi World
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/2011/the-last-days-of-al-ghazzali-and-the-tripartite-division-of-the-sufi-world

    Critical Rigor vs. Juridical Pragmatism
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Critical-Rigor-vs.-Juridical-Pragmatism-Article.pdf

    Did the Prophet Say It or Not? The Literal, Historical, and Effective Truth of Hadīths in Early Sunnism
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Did-the-Prophet-Say-It-or-Not-PDF.pdf

    IS THE DEVIL IN THE DETAILS? Tension Between Minimalism and Comprehensiveness in the Shariah
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Is-the-Devil-in-the-Details.pdf

    The Canonization of Ibn Mâjah: Authenticity vs. Utility in the Formation of the Sunni Ḥadîth Cano
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Canonization-of-Ibn-Majah-REMMM.pdf

    Faithful Dissenters: Sunni Skepticism about the Miracles of Saints
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Faithful-Dissenters-Sunni-Skepticism-about-the-Miracles-of-Saints.pdf

    The Rules of Matn Criticism: There are No Rules
    http://www.drjonathanbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/The-Rules-of-Matn-Criticism-There-are-No-Rules-Islamic-Law-and-Society.pdf

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #610 - November 30, 2015, 07:46 PM

    No it was a different twitter exchange where I tweeted the specific debate at kling and kling said that Brown was more knowledgeable than Holland on the topic of hadiths.

    It makes sense. Brown has published several peer reviewed papers to journals on hadiths where as Holland has not even submitted one regarding hadiths.

    With Brown I try to see his academic work as separate from his occasional apologist stuff. 

    Yes, that's fair enough. Tom Holland isn't an Arabic speaker and I don't think he'd claim that much academic expertise on Islam and probably less on hadiths. He's someone with a classics background who's strayed into the field of early Islam.

    Quote from: TheDarkRebel
    Might as well add Jonathan Brown's academic papers on hadiths to this thread while we are at it.

    Good idea.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #611 - December 01, 2015, 12:09 AM

    I'm not sure if this touches on any of the critical scholarship, I suspect not.

    The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Study-Quran-New-Translation-Commentary/dp/0061125865/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448928327&sr=8-1&keywords=the+study+quran

    Introduction and excerpt from the Study Quran: https://www.academia.edu/10496611/The_Study_Quran_excerpt_

    Caner K Dagli - About the diversity of views in the Study Quran: https://medium.com/@CanerDagli/about-the-diversity-of-views-in-the-study-quran-92b530acca9c#.zdekeyi69

    Could this Quran curb extremism?: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/25/living/study-quran-extremism/index.html

    Caner K Dagli on twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/CKDagli

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #612 - December 01, 2015, 02:07 AM

    Not really sure where to post this so I'll put it here -
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTjlZOYxXA Interesting interview with Maria Dakake and Joseph Lumbard about Islam and the Qu'ran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #613 - December 02, 2015, 12:52 AM

    I just bought the "Study Qur'an". I'll have to read up on what it says about those suras I've taken some actual time on, later.

    Initial impressions, from flipping through it: it reminds me of Suyuti's "Durr al-Manthur". It's a collection and distillation of classical tafâsir, done from a pro-Islamic standpoint; only this time it's in English. I have absolutely no problem with this; Suyuti is in my top five of favourite Muslims, and I hope more of his work gets translated.

    But in one important respect, this work is inferior to Suyuti. The commentary upon Q. 17:23 makes no notice of the important variant qada > wassa:
    http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Jeffery/Materials/m_sura15-19.htm

    The impression given is that this Qur'an is delivered to us without error, without even errors in pointing the consonants. I say to that bah humbug.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #614 - December 02, 2015, 05:58 PM

    Reading recommendations from Ian David Morris:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/671979275931766784

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/671984311848013825
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #615 - December 10, 2015, 11:15 AM

    "Skimming C.J. Werleman’s ‘Koran Curious’, published by an atheist press. Hopes not high."

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/674838583249883138
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #616 - December 10, 2015, 11:44 AM

    "Skimming C.J. Werleman’s ‘Koran Curious’, published by an atheist press. Hopes not high."

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/674838583249883138



    Quote


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFdq1i9nczE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #617 - December 12, 2015, 05:28 PM

    Ian David Morris on Dimitri Gutas - Greek Thought, Arabic Culture

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/675620042785038336

    See also Maria Mavroudi - Greek Language and Education Under Early Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/10198443/_Greek_Language_and_Education_Under_Early_Islam_in_Islamic_Cultures_Islamic_Contexts_Essays_in_Honor_of_Professor_Patricia_Crone_eds._Behnam_Sadeghi_Asad_Q._Ahmed_Robert_Hoyland_Adam_Silverstein_Leiden_E._J._Brill_2014_295-342
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #618 - December 14, 2015, 06:08 PM

    Robert Hoyland: "In God’s Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire"
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly46AjPDptw
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #619 - December 15, 2015, 07:19 PM

    There must have been some people who called them "arabs" or else the Romans wouldn't have named a province "Arabia"... not to mention that the Assyrians knew a Gingibu / Gindibu the Arab ('Gindibu' is more usual). Jan Retso mentions several accounts in his "The Arabs in Antiquity". Classical authors tend to note their cultural traits, which were called religious traits when the Christians took over the classical mantle.

    It is true that the various peoples in Arabia had no national-consciousness before Islam. A Himyari was a Himyari, and a Lakhmi was a Lakhmi. And the pre-islamic authors don't ever say "all the Arabs are like such-and-such" AFAIK. They would have viewed that as absurd, like saying all the Germans are like such-and-such.

    There used to be an ethnography of the Arabians, to match what Tacitus did for the Germannians: Uranius's Arabica. It seems not to have survived into the Heracleid Dynasty of the 600s, or else the Greeks would certainly have wanted to copy it.

    A blog post from Peter Webb that seems relevant:

    Arab Origins: Identity, History and Islam: http://blog.britac.ac.uk/arab-origins-identity-history-and-islam/
    Quote
    ....
    For many years, academics have treated the ‘Arabs’ as a homogenous bloc of humanity, defining them as a predominantly Bedouin people inhabiting the Arabian Peninsula since Antiquity. It is commonly maintained that in the 7th century AD the fortunes of the ‘Arabs’ were radically transformed when they embraced a new faith (Islam), and embarked on a lightning-fast burst of conquest by which they settled across the Middle East and laid the groundwork for today’s Arab World. Studies assumed that militarised nomadism was the original form of Arab life, that the pre-Islamic Arabs possessed a form of ethnic and/or cultural unity which enabled their conquests, and that the same sense of Arabness united the first generations of Muslims too. But such assumptions overlook the inherent variability of ethnic identities, and take Arab identity as a ‘given’, one of the constants that did not change despite the tumultuous transformations of imperial fortunes and religious movements accompanying the rise of Islam. It would be remarkable for a social group at the centre of those changes to maintain one cohesive (and culturally conservative) community, and I suspected that Arab history has been approached too simplistically.

    My hypothesis was bolstered by recent anthropological research in the modern Middle East. Those studies demonstrated that modern Arabs are heterogeneous and impossible to define in tidy categories – so why should we continue to assume that pre-modern Arabs conversely constituted one cohesive ethnic community? The challenge calls for a radical reappraisal of the literature and history about early Islam, applying the theoretical rigour of modern methodology to interrogate the notion of Arab identity embedded in those sources and to evaluate the social impact of the new faith and empire.

    Starting from first principles, my research began with broad questions: who exactly called themselves ‘Arabs’ in Islam’s first centuries and what did the word mean? Was Arab identity at the dawn of Islam contested and fluid? How did consciousness of Arab community interact with the interests of Muslim elites? My findings unearthed some unexpected results. Since the 9th century BC, various Middle Eastern peoples used words resembling ‘Arab’ to describe nomads, but this terminology exclusively connoted the idea of distant outsider, and never referred to one specific ethnic group. People only began to call themselves ‘Arabs’ and to use it as a means to express group solidarity after the dawn of Islam in the 7th century AD. It seems that the Muslim faith originally spread amongst different groups living in what is now the Arabian Peninsula, Syria and Iraq, and the very first Muslims saw themselves as a broad-based faith community (akin to Christians), instead of one interrelated ethnic group possessing an exclusive religion (akin to Judaism). But the situation soon changed: over two or three generations, the Muslim conquerors sought to maintain their distinctiveness from subject populations by developing strategies to segregate themselves, including the creation of a novel sense of belonging to an ‘Arab’ community. Arab identity became widely expressed in the early 8th century to connote conqueror elite status and it also laid claim to Islam as the ‘Arab faith’, since very few of the conquered peoples converted during Islam’s first century.

    Akin to other ethnic identities around the world, Arabness would keep changing as Muslim societies developed. The original Arab-Muslim elites were geographically widespread and sometimes violently vied against each other, so Arabness remained contested for several centuries as Muslim groups had to forget their diverse pasts in order to forge consensus of ‘Arab unity’. Moreover, when the conquered peoples began converting during the 8th-10th centuries, it became increasingly difficult to maintain that Islam was exclusively an ‘Arab faith’, and Arab and Muslim identities began to separate.

    I present a new narrative of Arab origins and development up to the 10th century in my forthcoming book, Imagining the Arabs. My British Academy Postdoctoral Fellowship will expand the enquiry into two directions: community and myth. I will first drill deeper into the origins of Arab community by investigating the specific pathways which distinct pre-Islamic groups took to become ‘Arabs’ in early Islam. This research, drawn from early Arabic poetry, historical and genealogical sources, uncovers the different responses individuals and groups articulated when confronted by the opportunity to embrace an Arab identity. Some resisted becoming Arabs, others sought to enhance their prestige within the new community, and others faced the question of whether an ‘Arab’ had to be Muslim.

    My project’s second component turns to the mythology invoked to create the Arab/Muslim community. Communities need to construct a shared sense of the past to gel their members into one cohesive group, and because a given group’s members usually hail from diverse backgrounds, that sense of past unity is quite often imaginary. In the Arab case, the familiar impressions of their origin as pre-Islamic Bedouin astride camels in the desert is one such myth which Muslims created to forget the fact that consciousness of Arab identity only coalesced in the Islamic-era, and to understand the place of Islam in the sweep of world history. My project critically reviews the vast corpus of medieval Arabic literature about Arab history via narratological, mythopoeic and aesthetic theories to uncover how Muslims forged notions of their origins and identities by converting memories of pre-Islam into Islamic origin myths.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #620 - December 15, 2015, 07:53 PM

    Other articles by Peter Webb: http://soas.academia.edu/PeterWebb
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #621 - December 16, 2015, 12:21 AM

    A blog post from Peter Webb that seems relevant

    Thank you for this.

    It seems to agree broadly with what I've been taught. I should mention again that my formal university training covered the reign of Justinian I... which is why I name-dropped Lakhm and not, say, Kinda. (The Lakhm were kind of a big deal back then.)

    Lakhm and Himyar did not view themselves as the same. They did not even speak the same language, although they spoke similar languages (so says Rabin, "Ancient West-Arabian"). As for either of these and the Mahra, forget it - they each would have dismissed the Mahra as "berbers".

    Webb's bibliography contains Aziz al-Azmeh's The Emergence of Islam in Late Antiquity. Webb reviews that here. Other reviews haven't been favourable so far. Based on the links I've seen on CEMB, anyway...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #622 - December 16, 2015, 05:07 PM

    Ian David Morris tweets the historical introduction to Patricia Crone's 'Slaves on Horses'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/677116442190454785

    And here's a pdf of the book

    https://psv4.vk.me/c539402/u4104930/docs/ed0992a7d66b/Slaves_on_horses_-_Evolution_of_Islamic_Polity.pdf?extra=oeqPsG7iSH503jFgKQpoGlEVF_xIsZmzo_GRhsTLdDUf9QopwvSGWklm4QRtnLj-Q1N9CcuutjXpB8aPk3M0jUaZ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #623 - December 16, 2015, 05:26 PM

    Been absent due to my computer network having some sort of technical glitch with this website .... seems to be resolved now.

    At any rate, this new article by Sinai is fantastic and highly recommended if y'all haven't seen it yet.  I really like that he points out how the early Qur'anic surahs  commend *chastity* (i.e. reflecting the classic Syriac Christian ascetic moral virtues), which has always struck me as blindingly obvious, and yet is overlooked due to the habit of reading the text through prophetic biography.

    https://www.academia.edu/19225122/_The_Eschatological_Kerygma_of_the_Early_Qur_an_forthcoming_in_Apocalypticism_and_Eschatology_in_the_Abrahamic_Religions_6th_8th_cent._C.E._edited_by_Hagit_Amirav_Emmanouela_Grypeou_and_Guy_Stroumsa_Leuven_Peeters_uncorrected_authors_manuscript_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #624 - December 16, 2015, 11:06 PM

    I wonder if a comparison with a group not too far away may be of help in defining "Arab"

    From wiki

    Quote
    Somalis constitute the largest ethnic group in Somalia, at approximately 85% of the nation's inhabitants.[1] They are organized into clan groupings, which are important social units; clan membership plays a central part in Somali culture and politics. Clans are patrilineal and are typically divided into sub-clans, sometimes with many sub-divisions. Through the xeer system (customary law), the advanced clan structure has served governmental roles in many rural Somali communities.[2]

    Somali society is traditionally ethnically endogamous. So to extend ties of alliance, marriage is often to another ethnic Somali from a different clan. Thus, for example, a recent study observed that in 89 marriages contracted by men of the Dhulbahante clan, 55 (62%) were with women of Dhulbahante sub-clans other than those of their husbands; 30 (33.7%) were with women of surrounding clans of other clan families (Isaaq, 28; Hawiye, 3); and 3 (4.3%) were with women of other clans of the Darod clan family (Majerteen 2, Ogaden 1).[3]

    Clan structure   Edit
    Certain clans are traditionally classed as noble clans, referring to the belief that they share a common Somali ancestry, whereas some minority clans are believed to have mixed parentage. The four noble clans are Darod, Dir, Hawiye and Isaaq. Of these, the Dir, Hawiye and Isaaq are regarded as descended from Irir Samaale, the likely source of the ethnonym Somali.[4] The Darod have separate agnatic or paternal traditions of descent through Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti (Sheikh Darod).[5] Sheikh Darod is, in turn, asserted to have married a woman from the Dir, thus establishing matrilateral ties with the Samaale main stem.[4] Although often recognized as a sub-clan of the Dir, the Isaaq clan claims paternal descent from one Shaykh Ishaq ibn Ahmad al-Hashimi (Sheikh Isaaq).[6] "Sab" is the term used to refer to minority clans in contrast to "Samaale".[7]

    The Digil and Mirifle (Rahanweyn) are agro-pastoral clans in the area between the Jubba and Shebelle rivers. Many do not follow a nomadic lifestyle, live further south and speak Maay. Although in the past frequently classified as a Somali dialect, more recent research by the linguist Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi suggests that Maay constitutes a separate but closely related Afro-Asiatic language of the Cushitic branch.[8]

    A third group, the occupational clans, have sometimes been treated as outcasts because traditionally they could only marry among themselves and other Somalis considered them to be ritually unclean. They lived in their own settlements among the nomadic populations in the north and performed specialised occupations such as metalworking, tanning and hunting.[7] Minority Somali clans include the Gaboye, Tumaal, Yibir, Jaji and Yahar.

    Clans and sub-clans   Edit
    There is no clear agreement on the clan and sub-clan structures. The divisions and subdivisions as given here are partial and simplified. Many lineages are omitted. Note that some sources state that the Rahanweyn group is made up of the Digil and Mirifle clans, whereas others list the Digil as a separate group from the Rahanweyn.[9]

    Darod


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #625 - December 17, 2015, 01:16 AM

    Been absent due to my computer network having some sort of technical glitch with this website .... seems to be resolved now.

    Welcome back. Greetings

    Quote
    At any rate, this new article by Sinai is fantastic and highly recommended if y'all haven't seen it yet.  I really like that he points out how the early Qur'anic surahs  commend *chastity* (i.e. reflecting the classic Syriac Christian ascetic moral virtues), which has always struck me as blindingly obvious, and yet is overlooked due to the habit of reading the text through prophetic biography.

    Thanks for this.

    Dr Sinai didn't cite Paul Casanova, "Mohammed et la fin du monde". It's in French. Maybe that's why; foreign-language scholarship can be... a pain. I know I facepalmed when I found out that Maria Conterno's best stuff was in Italian, and Dmitri Afinogenov's stuff was in *lots* of languages.

    *edit: another reason might go to the fact that my link goes only to part of the work.... Ibn Warraq points out that Casanova has been difficult to find before the last year or so. Now we have this link, but there's another part to this work which still hasn't been scanned-and-OCRed yet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #626 - December 17, 2015, 09:54 AM

    Been absent due to my computer network having some sort of technical glitch with this website

    We've missed you! cheers sloshed fest42

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #627 - December 18, 2015, 05:29 PM

    Andrew Marsham - The Architecture of Allegiance in Early Islamic Late Antiquity: The Accession of Mu‘awiya in Jerusalem, ca. 661 CE

    https://www.academia.edu/12627875/The_Architecture_of_Allegiance_in_Early_Islamic_Late_Antiquity_The_Accession_of_Mu_awiya_in_Jerusalem_ca._661_CE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #628 - December 20, 2015, 10:07 PM

    Carlos Segovia discusses the Qur'anic Noah

    http://en.alukah.net/World_Muslims/0/6889/


    Edit: I've read this through now. The second half of the interview is more about the study of early Islam in general and it's interesting that this should appear at all on a Saudi Islamic website.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #629 - December 21, 2015, 12:25 AM

    Forthcoming book

    Carlos Segovia - The Quranic Jesus: Traditional Views and New Insights

    https://www.academia.edu/17878086/The_Quranic_Jesus_Traditional_Views_and_New_Insights_2018_Upcoming_Book
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