Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 13, 2024, 05:18 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 05, 2024, 06:19 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 04, 2024, 03:51 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

New Britain
October 30, 2024, 08:34 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
October 30, 2024, 08:22 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
October 22, 2024, 09:05 PM

Tariq Ramadan Accused of ...
September 11, 2024, 01:37 PM

France Muslims were in d...
September 05, 2024, 03:21 PM

What's happened to the fo...
September 05, 2024, 12:00 PM

German nationalist party ...
September 04, 2024, 03:54 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1486028 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 22 23 2425 26 ... 369 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #690 - April 04, 2016, 06:58 PM

    That's the not way I'd think about it.  As Tor Andrae rightly explained long ago, the Qur'an's basic soteriology -- its message -- seems to have been adapted from Syriac Christianity, with the basic homiletic program being restated in a simplified Arabic context.  But the quranic adaptation transformed certain key elements.  Most obviously, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ disappear, and priestly sacrament goes away as well.  Simultaneously, what had previously been *metaphorical* descriptions of the pure ascetic's female rewards in paradise (in the Ephremic version) became re-interpreted as *literal* female rewards in paradise.

    It is impossible for this transformation of Christian tradition to have occurred within a strong ecclesiastical Christian hierarchy.  It is equally impossible for it to have occurred within an isolated pagan environment.   It can really only have taken place within a sort of peripheral environment, a liminal region, where the flow of Christian influence became transformed into creative dogmatic innovations.

    Both sides tend to miss the point, and the problem, which is to *explain this process of creative transformation*.  Instead they insist (like Luxenberg) that nothing was really transformed in the early text (meaning the underlying texts were basically normal Christian texts), or alternatively that quranic eschatology was an almost purely internal Arabic development, built by Muhammad in near complete isolation from Syriac Christian linguistic and textual antecedents (hence the houris must be a pagan Arab thing, the Devin Stewart approach).  Really neither approach to this false dichotomy makes any sense--the houris should be understood as a *set of transitions in a continuing process*.  But that's why this thread is called "Qur'anic Studies Today."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #691 - April 04, 2016, 07:25 PM

    Maybe the liminal bit is the Church of the East, and possibly Taoist and Buddhist ideas had gone West?

    http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln270/Palmer-DaQin.htm

    Quote
    . From now on, therefore, I shall refer to the Early Church in China as the Church of the East, or occasionally use the formal title, bestowed upon it by the Emperor in 638, of the Religion of the Light.   


    How does the Koran refer to light?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #692 - April 04, 2016, 07:34 PM

     
    the Qur'an's basic soteriology --

    1). its message seems to have been adapted from Syriac Christianity,  

    2).  quranic eschatology was an almost purely internal Arabic development, built by Muhammad in near complete isolation from Syriac Christian linguistic and textual antecedents (hence the houris must be a pagan Arab thing, the Devin Stewart approach).  


    built by Muhammad......built by Muhammad.....?  who is Muhammad?  what did he built?

    Hi  Zaotar .,  who was Muhammad of Quran in your view? And was there  words/names like  Muhammad .,  Islam,  Quran in and around Arabia in Arabic or other languages before the birth of alleged prophet of Islam?

    So you blame Arab pagans for that heavenly  boys and girls "houris"  to be served for those who go to Allah  whore house Jannah for Jannah for momins and mujahideen.??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzv-tkomrnw

    Quote
    Quran-(52:17-20): "They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Huris (fair females) with wide lovely eyes.” "There they shall pass from hand to hand a (wine) cup, free from any....

    Quran: (37:40-48): …they will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

    Quran: (44:51-55): Yes and we shall wed them to dark-eyed houris (beautiful virgins).

    Quran: (55:56-57): In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny?

    Quran-(55:72): "Hur (beautiful, fair females) guarded in pavilions;”

    Quran: (78:31-32): "As for the righteous, they surely triumph. Their gardens and vineyards and high-bosomed (pointed breast) virgins for companions, truly overflowing cup”

    Quran-(78: 33-34): "And young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age, and a full cup of wine.”

    Quran-(55:57-58): "Then which of the blessings of your lord will you both (jinn and men) deny? (In beauty) they are like rubies and coral”.

    Quran-(56:34-37): " …we created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand….”

    Quran-(55:70-77): " In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair….dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man or Jinn have touched before…”

    Quran-56:22: "And (there will be) Huris with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious)”

    Quran-(56: 35-36): "Verily , We have created them (maidens) of special creation. And made them Virgins.”

    Quran- (55:56): "Wherein both will be Qasirat-ut-Tarf (chaste females restraining their glances, desiring none except their husband) with whom no man or jinni has had tamth before them.”

    Quran: (2:25): "And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise)……… .and they will be given these things in resemblance (i.e., in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Muhtahharatun (purified mates and wives) and that they will have abide therein forever”.

    Quran:(47:15): "The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun have been promised (is that) in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed, rivers of milk of which the taste never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of clarified honey



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #693 - April 04, 2016, 07:50 PM

    Quote
    Let me summarise what we have. We have a site, which according to Chinese contemporary documents was built in 650 AD, the second church to be built in China. It is the only surviving one and thus the oldest surviving Church site. We have statues in a pagoda built in 781 AD and the statues have been tentatively dated to 800 AD. We have Syriac graffiti and a site orientated east to west. In other words, we have the most important Christian antiquarian site in China. What is more, we have this church and pagoda, this monastery, built within the sacred compound of the huge Lou Guan Tai Taoist complex. This was the Imperial Temple of the Tang dynasty and here the Christians were allowed to build a church. Indeed the Emperor must have given them the site. It is as if the Hare Krishnas were given a site beside Canterbury Cathedral, or the Muslims were allowed to build a mosque in the grounds of the White House. It shows that the Church, far from being one amongst a number of strange western religions in Tang dynasty China, had a special place. This has revolutionised our understanding of the Church in China.

    But how on earth did the Church come to be there?

    To answer that, and to discover what we found when we began to translate the Jesus Sutras I need to take you on a long journey in time, geography and belief. We need to travel to Antioch on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Here, where according to the Book of Acts in the New Testament, Christians were first called Christians, c 40 AD, the Silk Road had its terminus. Here goods from Persia, the Steppes and China arrived. And here in a great cosmopolitan city, which looked east not west to home, arose the first stirrings of the Church of the East.

    Many have tried to present the early Church as one ship, ploughing forward, driven by truth, with odd heresies breaking away from it. In fact the Early Church of the first 4 centuries of the Christian era were a motley collection of distinct tradition s which drew upon and fused with a variety of local, pre-Christian traditions. In Britain for example, the Celtic Church arose, distinctive through its fusion of Christianity with Celtic traditions and even deities. Antioch developed a Christianity that fused Christianity with a humanism which was the hallmark of the philosophical schools of the City. Meanwhile down in Egypt, the Church of Alexandria fused Christianity with the ancient traditions of the goddess Isis and her infant son Horus to produce the earliest known statues of the Virgin Mary and the Christ child. Egyptian Christianity was far more transcendental, more concerned with godhead than the humanitarian traditions of Antioch.

    All this came to a head in the fifth century. The Roman Empire had turned Christian during the 4th century and sought to create One Church just as it saw itself as the One State. As a result, local divergences and differences came to be seen as a profound threat to the concept and unity of the One Church model. Gradually local versions of Christianity were absorbed, dismantled or dismissed. These differences often expressed themselves in debates about the nature and person of Christ. For reasons too complex to go into now, the Archbishop of Constantinople, Nestorius, was in 431 dismissed as a heretic and his teachings about the humanity of Christ were declared heretical. At the same time, the Church in Persia was emerging from nearly forty years of terrible persecution. The Persian Church had existed from the 1st century and was part of a network of Churches in the east such as the ancient Church of India founded by St. Thomas in the 1st century; the Church in Sogdiana, Bactria and Gandhara, the ancient Greco-Indian kingdoms in present day Pakistan and Afghanistan, and the Church in Arabia.

    The Persian Empire of the Sassanians loathed the Roman Empire. Thus they loathed the new religion, which had become its state religion - Christianity. The Church of the east - the Church from Persia onwards - was seen as a Fifth Column. To break this link and because of profound theological reservations over the direction of Roman Christianity, the Church of the east broke away from the Church of the West in the late 5th century. Its opponents in the West dismissed it as 'Nestorian' and therefore heretical and there was virtually no contact between the Church for centuries. The Church of the east thus cut itself off from the developments of the Church of the West, the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. It developed its own theology without the influence of, for example, St. Augustine and his concept of original sin, without the fusion of Hellenistic thought, which emerged from the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas. The Church of the east went its own way.

    It was also dealing with very different worlds. The Church of the West never missionaised a culture more advanced than its own until the 18th century. The barbarian tribes of Bulgars, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, and the such like, which were converted by Rome and Constantinople all had to have alphabets created for them so they could read the Bible in their own tongue. But the Church of the East was working in cultures such as Persia, India, Arabia where literature was well established; where in many cases universities had been functioning for hundreds of years, and where learning and philosophy were part of the life of each culture. The Church of the East missionized equals, whereas the Church of the West, after the fall of the Roman Empire, missionized those desperate to partake of culture in one form or another.

    Today the Church of the East is almost completely forgotten. Yet in the 8th century, when the Da Qin monastery was at its height, the Church stretched three times as far as the Church of the West and had probably twice as many churches and Christians as the Church of the West. Historians usually dismiss the Church of the East because in Western terms it failed. It did not convert an entire Empire and in the end was destroyed by the slow growth of Islam but more seriously by the destruction of the Mongols in the 13th to 15th centuries.



    As there were many xianities, maybe there were many islams, who also went through a process of orthodoxisation and heresy definition?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #694 - April 04, 2016, 07:58 PM

    And maybe the Koran was written in Baghdad to unify the islams, and create a state Persian religion?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #695 - April 05, 2016, 12:22 PM

    That's the not way I'd think about it.  As Tor Andrae rightly explained long ago, the Qur'an's basic soteriology -- its message -- seems to have been adapted from Syriac Christianity, with the basic homiletic program being restated in a simplified Arabic context.  But the quranic adaptation transformed certain key elements.  Most obviously, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ disappear, and priestly sacrament goes away as well.  Simultaneously, what had previously been *metaphorical* descriptions of the pure ascetic's female rewards in paradise (in the Ephremic version) became re-interpreted as *literal* female rewards in paradise.

    It is impossible for this transformation of Christian tradition to have occurred within a strong ecclesiastical Christian hierarchy.  It is equally impossible for it to have occurred within an isolated pagan environment.   It can really only have taken place within a sort of peripheral environment, a liminal region, where the flow of Christian influence became transformed into creative dogmatic innovations.

    Both sides tend to miss the point, and the problem, which is to *explain this process of creative transformation*.  Instead they insist (like Luxenberg) that nothing was really transformed in the early text (meaning the underlying texts were basically normal Christian texts), or alternatively that quranic eschatology was an almost purely internal Arabic development, built by Muhammad in near complete isolation from Syriac Christian linguistic and textual antecedents (hence the houris must be a pagan Arab thing, the Devin Stewart approach).  Really neither approach to this false dichotomy makes any sense--the houris should be understood as a *set of transitions in a continuing process*.  But that's why this thread is called "Qur'anic Studies Today."

    This reminds me of a train of thought I had while reading Peter Brown's 'The Rise of Western Christendom'. One point that comes across from it is that for the languages that took new written forms in late antiquity and the early medieval period the new literate cultures were very much tied in with the church and monasticism. There wasn't a lot of secular learning and writing outside the church. In some cases the bible was translated and there was religious writing in the newly written languages (Armenian, Georgian, Coptic, Ge'ez, Gothic, Church Slavonic). In other cases (Irish, Anglo-Saxon, Icelandic) religion continued to be conducted in Latin while the new languages were largely restricted to more secular purposes - histories, chronicles and sagas, including almost all surviving written accounts of pre-Christian Northern European traditions and religion. However all of this apparently secular or non-Christian literature seems to have been written, or at least transferred from oral memory to writing, by scholars within the church, usually monks.

    If this is accepted as a general pattern then for me it poses the question of how Arabic fits into this pattern pre-Islam (Peter Brown doesn't pose this question). Unlike other newly written near eastern languages there seems to have been no bible translation (this only came much later) and presumably Syriac remained the main language of religion. Can we assume that there was some kind of tradition of Christian religious writing in Arabic that is now lost? How far is this reflected in the Qur'an? Can it be assumed that before Islam written Arabic was largely confined to scholars within monasteries and the church - even if religion may have been largely conducted in Syriac? Do we assume the Qur'an was written down by people from a monastic background? If so how do we get from Christian to Qur'anic theology? And whatever happened to the church hierarchy and Christian ideas about sexuality and monastic celibacy? Could the new idea of a paradise that involved sex be tied in to this transformation? A theology that appealed to people from a monastic background abandoning celibacy? In terms of religious reform are there any parallels with early Protestant challenges to monasticism, clerical celibacy and a church hierarchy that was seen as corrupt?

    Edit: some speculative ideas there - feel free to shoot them down.

    Edit2: for comparison Old Nubian is another example of a written language from the period closely linked to Christianity.
    Quote
    Old Nubian is an ancient variety of Nubian, attested in writing from the 8th to the 15th century (the most recent known text was written in 1485).
    ....
    It was used throughout the medieval Christian kingdom of Makuria and its satellite Nobadia. The language is preserved in at least a hundred pages of documents, mostly of a religious nature, written using a modified form of the Coptic script; the best known is The Martyrdom of Saint Menas.
    ....
    Nobadia was converted to Monophysite Christianity by the priests Julian and Longinus, and thereafter received its bishops from the pope of Alexandria.

    Old Nubian is one of the oldest written African languages but was used only sporadically. The civil administration and legal records tended to employ Greek, while the church leadership (originally all Egyptians) were fluent in Coptic. Over time, more and more Old Nubian began to appear in both secular and religious documents, and the language also influenced the use of Greek and Coptic in the region (e.g., some confusion of Greek grammatical genders & use of variant verb tenses). The consecration documents found with the remains of archbishop Timotheos suggest, however, that Greek and Coptic continued to be used into the late 14th century, by which time Arabic was also in widespread use.
    ....

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #696 - April 05, 2016, 04:16 PM

    Christian Høgell - An early anonymous Greek translation of the Qur'an

    http://www.uco.es/investiga/grupos/hum380/collectanea/sites/default/files/12_2.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #697 - April 05, 2016, 04:49 PM

    This reminds me of a train of thought I had while reading Peter Brown's 'The Rise of Western Christendom'. One point that comes across from it is that for the languages that took new written forms in late antiquity and the early medieval period the new literate cultures were very much tied in with the church and monasticism. There wasn't a lot of secular learning and writing outside the church. In some cases the bible was translated and there was religious writing in the newly written languages (Armenian, Georgian, Coptic, Ge'ez, Gothic, Church Slavonic). In other cases (Irish, Anglo-Saxon, Icelandic) religion continued to be conducted in Latin while the new languages were largely restricted to more secular purposes - histories, chronicles and sagas, including almost all surviving written accounts of pre-Christian Northern European traditions and religion. However all of this apparently secular or non-Christian literature seems to have been written, or at least transferred from oral memory to writing, by scholars within the church, usually monks.

    If this is accepted as a general pattern then for me it poses the question of how Arabic fits into this pattern pre-Islam (Peter Brown doesn't pose this question). Unlike other newly written near eastern languages there seems to have been no bible translation (this only came much later) and presumably Syriac remained the main language of religion. Can we assume that there was some kind of tradition of Christian religious writing in Arabic that is now lost? How far is this reflected in the Qur'an? Can it be assumed that before Islam written Arabic was largely confined to scholars within monasteries and the church - even if religion may have been largely conducted in Syriac? Do we assume the Qur'an was written down by people from a monastic background? If so how do we get from Christian to Qur'anic theology? And whatever happened to the church hierarchy and Christian ideas about sexuality and monastic celibacy? Could the new idea of a paradise that involved sex be tied in to this transformation? A theology that appealed to people from a monastic background abandoning celibacy? In terms of religious reform are there any parallels with early Protestant challenges to monasticism, clerical celibacy and a church hierarchy that was seen as corrupt?

    Edit: some speculative ideas there - feel free to shoot them down.


    These are very interesting questions Zeca.  A few thoughts ... first it is very unlikely that Biblical texts of any length were written down in Arabic (although here we must distinguish Arabic script and Arabic-ish languages).  That said, the Nabatean Aramaic and proto-Arabic script seems to have been *decisively* Christian in its usage, with almost all reported uses being in an overtly Christian context, particularly the later uses.  The famous new South Arabian use of pre-Islamic Arabic script was, of course, preceded by prominent crosses in the inscription.  So while I think the script was primarily secular, it was associated with Christian usage.  The truth is, however, that we don't really know much about what happened to the script after the fall of the Nabateans.  I suspect, but don't know, that after its secular use declined it was retained in an increasingly religious capacity, a way to keep track of vernacular Arabic ministry, preserved more by the monks/churches.

    The transformation of sex is one of the most interesting aspects of the Qur'an, and one of the most poorly analyzed.  Nicolai Sinai's recent article on the eschatological kerygma of the Qur'an points out (quite correctly) that at least two passages of the Qur'an which exalt chastity were later interpolated to change the argument.  In fact there is a very clear transition from the ascetic Syriac Christian tone of the earliest surahs to the very worldly tone of the latest surahs.  In Syriac Christian tradition, sex was a negative, replaced by metaphorical rewards in heaven for the believer who refrained in this life.  In early quranic surahs, worldly sex seems to again still be a negative, but it is compensated by literal sexualized rewards in heaven.  The process then continues, and sex in this world is okay as long as it's carefully constrained.  By the end of quranic composition, even sex with slaves is perfectly fine.

    Note that Islamic tradition has an elaborate biographical explanation for this striking transition -- Muhammad was married to one old woman when he received the first revelations, and was monogamous for 25 years.  He married Khadija when she was age 40 and he was age 25 (plainly fictive numbers btw).  When Muhammad got his first revelation, he was 40, and Khadija was 55.  Then he was monogamous until she died at age 65, when he was 50 and became polygamous (again, almost all numbers in Muhammad's traditional biography are incredibly artificial).  Only then, in Medina, did he get his full harem built up, and that's why you see all this sexualized material coming in later.

    Of course there is also a parallel transition in attitudes towards wealth and sons.  In the early surahs, they are considered basically proof that you are bound for hell, consistent with Syriac Christian asceticism.  In later surahs, exact opposite.  Again, there are elaborate Islamic traditions that explain this (i.e. Muhammad had no biological sons ... that's why in the Meccan surahs he complains about a specific contemporary who did have sons).  It remains amazing to me that they are taken seriously even by allegedly critical scholars.

    Theologically, it's as though somebody pushed ice into hot water, and it slowly melts over time.  I would interpret this as the formal ascetic theology of Syriac Christianity which is slowly transformed and revised in a peripheral context.  It wasn't instantaneous by any means.  To me, it looks nothing like a Meccan leader suddenly received a revelation that clashed with his pagan society, and then later suddenly ascended to political power in Medina.  It looks like *process*, in which the changes were not isolated from broader social changes, but rather a specific set of currents that became stronger and ultimately dominant.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #698 - April 06, 2016, 07:22 AM

    Quote from: Zaotar
    That said, the Nabatean Aramaic and proto-Arabic script seems to have been *decisively* Christian in its usage, with almost all reported uses being in an overtly Christian context, particularly the later uses.

    Are there any examples of its use in a non-Christian context?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #699 - April 06, 2016, 05:08 PM

    Quote from: Zaotar
    Reminds me of how much I hate Twitter.  It's a deliberately superficial medium, good for superficial things, terrible for any serious analysis.

    I agree with Taleb on one thing though, which is that it's not a question of whether Luxenberg follows academic process, and it's not even a question of whether he is 'right', as if that were a binary proposition.  It's a question of evaluating the effectiveness of his explanation of the text.


    More from Ian David Morris on independent scholars, pseudo-scholarship, anonymity and so on:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/717720602241605632

    This is one point where I feel a bit wary of his line of argument, even if it could be taken as a reasonable rule of thumb much of the time.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #700 - April 06, 2016, 07:03 PM

    I think it's rather complex.  Despite having written several articles myself, I disfavor independent scholarship.  It's much better to have professionals.  Morris is right about that.

    Where I disagree is in his implicit assessment of the state of Qur'anic/Islamic Studies; these fields, it is implied, are already populated by skilled professionals who should handle the interpretive job.  In an ideal world, perhaps that would be true.  But in our world, it totally ignores the un-ideal fact that Qur'anic Studies/Islamic Studies remain poster boys for disastrously uncritical scholarship.  Compared to other fields of religious studies, they are still centuries behind.  Preposterous narratives are, in Qur'anic Studies, still routinely accepted by eminent scholars.  The dismal situation has not changed all that much since Crone wrote this:

    "Anyway, I met this Moroccan in Avignon, and he told me the story of the Battle of Siffin: the Syrians were losing and responded by hoisting Qurans on their lances, the battle stopped, and so Ali lost. It never occurred to me to believe it; I smiled politely and thought to myself, “when I get to university I’ll hear a different story.” I got to Copenhagen University, but no Islamic history was taught there, only Semitic philology, which I did not want to do, and history, meaning European history, which I did do and enjoyed, but which was not where I wanted to stay. Eventually I got myself to England, and there I was accepted by SOAS and heard Professor Lewis lecture on early Islamic history, including the Battle of Siffin. He told the story exactly as my Moroccan friend had told it. I could not believe it. It struck me as obvious that the narrative was fiction, and besides, everyone knows that battle accounts are most unlikely to be reliable, least of all when they are told by the loser. I thought about it again many years later, in 2003, when one of Saddam Hussain’s generals, Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf, also known as comical (not chemical) Ali, persistently asserted that the Iraqis had defeated the Americans and put them to flight, so that there weren’t any American troops in Iraq any more. At the very least one would have expected Lewis to say something about the problematic nature of battle narratives, and was this really true? But no: it was a truth universally acknowledged that, during the Battle of Siffin, the Syrians hoisted Qurans on their lances and thereby stopped the battle, depriving the Iraqis of their victory. I think this is the biggest academic shock I’ve ever suffered, but I didn’t say anything. I never did, I was too shy. And then I encountered John Wansbrough. He read Arabic texts with us undergraduates, clearly thinking we were a hopeless lot, but he was the first person I met at SOAS who doubted the Siffin story."

    What kind of field can try to exclude independent scholarship when it is permeated by such a surreal lack of critical rigor?  Even a child can see that the Siffin story is ludicrous.  Ideally, children should not be needed to point things out to a grizzled and eminent scholar like Lewis---true! yes!---but here we are.  That's the field. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #701 - April 06, 2016, 07:15 PM

    Are there any examples of its use in a non-Christian context?


    I didn't state that correctly -- I meant specifically its use for writing Arabic language.  The Nabatean script was used long before Christianity came about, from 2nd Century BC onward, to write Aramaic; over time, Arabic-ish language starts to filter into the inscriptions.  It was long a non-Christian secular script.  It is amazing that it survived given how poorly suited it is to writing down Arabic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #702 - April 06, 2016, 07:26 PM

    Am I right in thinking it's just known from inscriptions with no surviving manuscripts? Do you think Arabic was being written in at least something like its Qur'anic form before the early seventh century? I think this is the assumption that I was making in my speculative post above, that it had a previous life as a minor literary language of Christian scholarship, along the lines of other written languages of late antiquity. I'm just making an argument by analogy here, not going off any real knowledge or evidence. I'm not assuming any direct connection with later Christian writing in Arabic, which looks more a result of the Arabisation of previously non-Arabic speaking Christian groups. I suppose my hypothesis would be for the existence of a now lost earlier Christian Arabic literary tradition. Does this sound plausible?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #703 - April 06, 2016, 07:54 PM

    I think it is quite possible, even probable, but the use must have very limited.  As far as I know the only surviving texts are all epigraphic inscriptions.   The transitional Nabatean-Arabic scripts are mostly inscriptions from the Nabatean regions of Jordan, and then the first true Arabic script inscriptions are from 5th-6th century Syria (which would, presumably, have been in a Northern form of Arabic dialect, probably similar to the language represented by the quranic rasm, not necessarily similar to Classical Arabic).  Great summary of Arabic language inscriptions:

    http://krc.orient.ox.ac.uk/ociana/index.php/home/146-english/home/356-epigraphic-old-arabic

    And the emergence of transitional Nabatean-Arabic script:

    https://www.academia.edu/2106858/_A_glimpse_of_the_development_of_the_Nabataean_script_into_Arabic_based_on_old_and_new_epigraphic_material_in_M.C.A._Macdonald_ed_The_development_of_Arabic_as_a_written_language_Supplement_to_the_Proceedings_of_the_Seminar_for_Arabian_Studies_40_._Oxford_47-88

    It's not until the Islamic era that you see the first fragments of Arabic written on papyrus as far as I know.  Islamic Awareness has great links on the subject.

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #704 - April 06, 2016, 08:05 PM

    Thanks. I'll take a look at those articles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #705 - April 06, 2016, 10:05 PM

    Hi to you all,
    I´m new and I´ve been enjoying all your interesting posts very much.
    Concerning the topic being discussed now (origin of Arabic and its script), Does anyone have an opinion on Kerr´s position that  "The precursor to Classical Arabic was spoken in Syria, not in the Hijaz." and that the Quran is a product of Arabia Petraea?

    Aramaisms_in_the_Qur_ān_and_Their_Significance by Robert Kerr

    (the site doesnt allow me to post the direct link Huh? )
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #706 - April 06, 2016, 10:54 PM

    Hi mundi, here's a link to Kerr's article.

    Aramaisms in the Qur'an and their Significance

    I think the site's not allowing you to put up a link in your first post to protect against spammers.

    Quote
    Concerning the topic being discussed now (origin of Arabic and its script), Does anyone have an opinion on Kerr´s position that  "The precursor to Classical Arabic was spoken in Syria, not in the Hijaz." and that the Quran is a product of Arabia Petraea?

    My guess would be that Kerr is likely to be right on this. I'm sure Zaotar or Zimriel could give a better answer though.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #707 - April 06, 2016, 11:26 PM

    Yep I have read that essay a couple times.  It is one of the most fascinating questions in the field!

    I think Kerr is right that the Arabic reflected in the Qur'an's consonantal rasm is of a type quite different than Classical Arabic, and that this type was much more similar to the Northern dialects in Syria (in its lack of case, its lack of a medial hamza, and other features).  However it is possible that similar Arabic was also spoken in the Hijaz, where Islamic tradition reports they didn't use a medial hamza either.  And it is also possible that the Qur'an was written in the Hijaz in a script and in language that 'mimicked' prestigious Northern forms of writing and speech.  After all, they just found a pre-Islamic Arabic inscription just north of Najran.  A big problem is that so little is actually known about the Hijaz.

    So Kerr is surely right in my book that the Qur'an was much more closely tied to Arabia Petraea than Islamic tradition accounts for, and that it was originally written in language closer to Syrian Arabic than to Classical Arabic.  But I think we should be cautious in assuming that just because a text repeats Northern concepts, imagery, and speech that it was therefore actually produced in Northern regions.

    Finally, remember Karl Vollers' thesis that the Qur'an was originally written in Arabic vernacular and then sort of re-written and revised into poetical language, the variety that became Classical Arabic.  Following Vollers' thesis, the Qur'an is not really written as a real-world spoken Arabic language.  It's a sort of hybrid, as if we were to take a modern American play and rewrite its words as best we could to comport with a Shakespearean accent, writing additional markings to show how to do this.  The result would sound vaguely Shakespearean, but it would not be any real-world type of spoken English.

    Some of the most obvious examples of this problem are the rasm's lack of a medial hamza ... it's not just lacking, the rasm is actually written in a way that shows it cannot have been pronounced the way it is read now.  In the rasm, a short medial vowel is lengthened, rather than being pronounced with a glottal stop, or just pronounced short.  Mu'min is written "mwmn" in the rasm, with a long 'u' in the middle, even though it's recited as mu'min.  If it was really originally pronounced as a short 'u' vowel or with a glottal stop, it would instead just be written mmn.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #708 - April 07, 2016, 01:13 PM

    .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #709 - April 07, 2016, 01:31 PM

    Question: Do the various differences in rasm or how a word is pronounced alter the meaning?

    Thanks for your stellar efforts. Your posts and insights make coming to the forum a must.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #710 - April 07, 2016, 04:45 PM

    They are mostly just differences in the pronunciation, but also in the grammar (because the orthography of the rasm reflects an Arabic that, with very few exceptions, lacks case).  Islamic tradition generally did a pretty stellar job of reading the words of the rasm -- I would give the Islamic exegetes an "A" overall at that.

    It's really only with foreign-derived words that the tradition stumbled badly, frequently giving hopelessly contrived etymologies to try to explain these words as internal to Arabic.  This dogmatic approach is understandable for Islamic tradition.  What is amazing, however, is that so many modern 'professional' scholars continue to accept it, as long as the flimsiest and most circular reasoning can be found.  It's this uncritical attitude that creates space for guys like Luxenberg to come in and point out that, for example, the rasm of Q 72:3 obviously designates 'had' in its Aramaic sense of 'one,' not the Arabic 'gadd' that generations of Western scholars have mindlessly accepted, following Islamic tradition's insistence on reading it as 'pure Arabic.'  It's a laughable error once you see it pointed out, and yet that's where the field still largely remains ... mired in amateurish dogma.  Until it changes, the Luxenbergs of the world aren't going to go away.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #711 - April 07, 2016, 05:55 PM

    Question: Do the various differences in rasm or how a word is pronounced alter the meaning?

    If I may butt in, yes it does and these differences can be substantive.

    For example, in Aqidah Ahlu Sunnah, as per Alwasatiyyah by Ibn Taymiyyah, one of Allah’s attributes is that he gets amazed (صفة العَجب). The supportive evidence for this is in the Sunnah and not the Quran. There is no one single verse in the Quran which attributes amazement to Allah.

    Until you take into account this verse [37:12] (بل عجبتَ ويسخرون) as it is read by Alkisa’i (الدوري عن الكِسائي) . In this Qira’h or recitation, the addressee or ‘vocative’ suffixed pronoun (ضمير المخاطَب) stops being Muhammad and becomes that of the speaker i.e Allah is amazed by their mockery (بل عجبتُ ويَسْخَرون).

    As you can see, this is fundamental and too much rides on it; it's about Tawhid (the first part of Shahada) and about positively stating whether or not Allah is or has something in himself.

    Another important and substantial difference brought about by the differences of realisation or pronunciation is a particular verse in surah Yaseen [36:38] (والشمسٌ تَجْري لِمٌسْتَقَرٍ لها), where in a different Qira'ah of the authentic seven, out of the thirteen, Qiraat, it is rendered as (والشمسُ تَجْري لا مٌستَقرَ لها) --- I can't remember which one because I'm drunk now but take me to task over it and I will certainly do a little bit of research and give you the exact name of it; I promise. In it, the verse means the sun moves or runs never stopping or never being stationary. This, therefore, is supportive of the geocentric view of the universe (Hello CallMeTed, wherever you are!). Reliant on it, the former Saudi Grand Mufi, Ibn Baz, has declared that any Muslim who says that the sun is stationary has committed Kufr because they have rejected and or do not believe what Allah in His book has said about the position of the sun, that it runs or moves.

    Let me get a bit technical now. Another example where the Rasm (الرَّسْم أو الإملاء) and realisation are at variance is in the word Rhman (الرّحمن). It should’ve been with a normal Alif (e.g. الرّحمان). Because the *verbal* stem or source (رَحَمَ) has changed its grammatical identity in this case to a superlative *adjective* and this new identity necessitates the use of a particular morphological metre (فَعْلان), the Rasm has to reflect and adhere to it as well.

    To make this clearer, the Arabic source <angered> for example is Ghadhab (غَضَبَ) and this verb is morphologically identical to the previous source or stem (رَحَمَ) in numerical and or phonemic sense (فِعْل ثلاثي). Thus, to put this verb into an adjectival form expressing qualitative superlativeness (that is to say, the agent is full of an attribute, rather than acts it all the time), you inescapably need to use the metre (فَعْلان) and say or write it as Ghadhbaan (غَضْبان).

    In both these examples (رَحَمَ - غَضَبَ), the sources or stems end in voiced bilabial consonants (one nasal and sonorant [ m ] and the other is oral and stop [ b ] ), therefore, there's no need to consider anything that happens further back in the mouth (i.e. the glottal stop) that could justify this departure from the rule of having an Alif in the Rasm.

    (Incidentally, a similar superlative metre (فعّال), which expresses that a thing is done a lot or all the time by somebody or something, gets the Quran into some difficulty in a particular verse [41:46] (وما ربك بظلّام للعبيد). Here, the verb (ظَلَم) is put in an adjectival form which denotes that Allah is not full of injustice. The semantic opposite of it or what is known in tafsir as (مفهوم المخالَفة) is that, when holding His slaves to account, Allah is unjust in small doses or some of the time.)

    I have surat Alfatiha in mind in regard to the {ri]Rasm[/i] of Rhman (الرحمن) but you can find more inconsistencies in it. The first is that the Basmala (بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم) is a verse even though it does not get read out, at least in the entirety of Saudi Arabia, as a part of the chapter. Just like the attribute of amazement above, this is significant because Alfatiha is one of the fourteen pillars of the prayer i.e. if you do not read it in any Rakah (ركعة), then your prayer is invalid.

    Further, the word (بسم) is made up of two items; the preposition (بِ) that prefixes it and the noun (اسم). Thus, it is written as (بِاسم) everywhere in normal Arabic because the Hamza is 'connective' or nexus (همزة الوصل). You drop this particular Hamza from the Rasm but you cannot ever drop the Alif according to the rules and or Arabic tendencies. However, it is true that people write it in non-Quranic contexts as (بإسم), keeping the Hamza in against the rules and tendencies, but this is probably to conveniently distinguish it -- with the connective Hamza dropped -- from another identical item (the resultant homograph is the male first name Basm/باسم which means 'smiling'). Be that as it may, the Alif must in all cases be kept in the Quranic text even though it is currently absent.

    Also, you can see the unusual Quranic rasm of <Allah> (الله) which should have been written as (الّلاه) as some critics say and these are the ones that argue this departure from the rules or more prevalent tendencies is due to separating Allah from the spelling of Allat (الّلات), which apparently was another local god. Ho-hum.

    In the fourth verse of Alfatiha there's a word which can be read in two different ways at the same time; one as Malik (مالِك) which means the owner of the Final Day, and the other as Mlik (ملك) which means the king of the Final Day. In the rasm of this verse, the single word is with a superscript apostrophe conveying either use but not both at the same time  — this is like the one between the emm and the enn in (الرحمن) though here, the Alif is not optionally not voiced.

    "Make up your minds!" is the least thing one can expect here; is the superscript Alif in the rsam sounded as in (الرحمن) and (العالَمين) or not sounded as in (ملك)? (And indeed, where are the two supposed Alifs in (طه) in surat Taha [20:1]?)

    In terms of meaning, if we go with the latter (ملك), this adds nothing special because Allah claims to be the single king of place (seven heavens and seven earths) and time in a lot of verses. The mufisroon explain away this nonevent as Him being the only king in space/place and time existence that day and that there would be no false crown wearers as it is the case in the here and now. If we go with the former (مالك), again there's nothing so special about Him owning this day when He claims to own every other day.

    The same superscript apostrophe substituting Alif is found in the second verse of Alfatiha (العالمين). Again, there's nothing which justifies this departure in rasm; not meaning or otherwise. Also, (العالَمين) is said to mean the worlds by mufisroon but this cannot be supported grammatically nor morphologically. The suffix (مين- مون) denotes a personal plural male, thus you pluralise a Muslim (المسلم) at the start of a sentence as Almuslimoon (المسلمون) or in other places (i.e. genitive) as Almuslimeen (المسلمين). In both cases, this suffix denotes a plural person, not a neuter stuff like worlds. Rather, if it were meant as worlds, then it should morphologically have been put in the irregular plural form (جمع التكسير) as ( رب العَوَالِم) expressing things in lieu of a form which conclusively expresses people and persons.

    (Miraculous in its sounds and letters on top of its meanings, they tell you about the Quran. How is breaking the grammatical, morphological tendencies and rules of spoken and written Arabic to achieve grandiloquent poeticism miraculous? How is using previously unknown words in the Arabic tongue in which it claims to have been revealed miraculous; both Rashidun Caliphs, Abu-Bakr and Umar, did not know what Abba (وفاكهةَ وأبّا) [80:31] means in surat Abasa because they had never heard of it before, even though Abu-Bakr was only two years younger than Muhammad and from the same tribe and knew poetry; he has his own few poems. The precise meaning of Abba is still unknown definitively. In the same way, the meaning of Haseed (منها قائم وحصيد) as in [11:100] was only arrived at -- to be 'destroyed'-- by comparing it with what comes before it but the word in itself as used in the Quran is not known in the recorded Arabic language. Finally, the noun <well> is masculine even though the Quran modifies it with a feminine adjective in (وبئرٍ معطلة) [45:22])

    So the direct answer to your question, Jedi, is yes there are a lot of grammatically and morphologically incongruent stuff in the Quranic rasm or written form that cannot always be reconciled with its different realisations -- there were seven authentic Qiraat before the Caliph Uthman forbade and burnt them all except one Qir'ah, thus we, Sunnis, have his rasm and compilation. My father and his father's Qira'at is Wrsh (ورش) as this is the prevalent one in Chad, whereas I have learnt the Quran in Saudi as a child on Hafs (قراءة حفص عن عاصم) and then as a pubescent boy I informally began learning to recite it on Shu'ba (قراءة شعبة عن عاصم). I had the opportunity to recite on Shu'ba upon a Syrian Qari' called (عبدالحميد بكري الطرابيشي) when he was in Riyadh between 2000 and 2004.

    And yes, Zaotar kicks ass.
    ---------------------------------
    P.S. I have written more but, alas, it all disappeared when I accidentally hit the backspace key. This still is updated and revised. P.P.S. I added more stuff, some is not relevant at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #712 - April 07, 2016, 06:00 PM

    Quote
    (Incidentally, a similar superlative metre (فعّال), which expresses that a thing is done a lot or all the time by somebody or something, gets the Quran into some difficulty in a particular verse [41:46] (وما ربك بظلّام للعبيد). Here, the verb (ظَلَم) is put in an adjectival form which denotes that Allah is not full of injustice. The semantic opposite of it or what is known in tafsir as (مفهوم المخالَفة) is that, when holding His slaves to account, Allah is unjust in small doses or some of the time.)


    Nice Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #713 - April 07, 2016, 06:05 PM

    ...................

    And yes, Zaotar kicks ass.

    and Allah says  

    Quote
    Surah Dukhan verse 58: We have made this Book easy in your own tongue so that they may ponder and take good counsel.
     
     Surah Yusuf verse 1-2: Alif. Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes its object perfectly CLEAR. We have sent it down as a Quran in Arabic, so that you may UNDERSTAND it well.
     
    Surah Nahl verse 89: We have sent down to you this Book, which makes everything plain, and is a guidance, blessing and good news to those who have surrendered themselves entirely.
     
    Surah Maryam verse 97: O Mohamed, We have made this Quran easy, and sent it down in your tongue so that you should give good news to the pious and warn the stubborn people.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #714 - April 07, 2016, 06:13 PM

     Thank you for the interesting comments on the Kerr article.

    Zaotar mentioned the Najran inscriptions. I came across several articles about grafitti found in the Hijaz dating to 7 C. One of the most spectacular finds are the Zuhayr inscriptions:

    "The_Inscription_of_Zuhayr_the_oldest_Islamic_Inscription_AH_24_AD_644_" (not allowed to link yet....)

    A comment is added by Hoyland at the end  which gives the find 100 % credibility. The graffiti seem to confirm quite a lot of the Islamic tradition.

    I have the impression that a lot of answers to what has been discussed on this blog are to be found in the Arabian desert. Or should I be more suspicious? Anyone?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #715 - April 07, 2016, 07:10 PM

    That Robert Hoyland link: The Inscription of Zuhayr, the oldest Islamic Inscription (AH 24/AD 644)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #716 - April 07, 2016, 10:44 PM

    Wahabist, thanks for the extremely interesting discussion!

    As for the spelling of Rahman, it may be an orthographic archaism that reflects its South Arabian provenance.  In South Arabian script, this old divine name was spelled without the medial long 'a', as mentioned in the following article.

    https://www.academia.edu/14169772/Abrahas_Christological_Formula_R%E1%B8%A5mnn_w-Ms%E1%B8%A5-hw_and_Its_Relevance_for_the_Study_of_Islams_Origins_2015_Upcoming_Scholarly_Article

    So the Qur'an may just be repeating, in Arabic script transliteration, how Rahman was spelled in South Arabian script, since that's where the name originally came from.  That's why its spelling is inconsistent with the modernized Arabic script that uses a medial long a.  So I would guess.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #717 - April 08, 2016, 12:33 AM

    Thanks Zoatar, I will read the article when I have sobered up xxx

    But as a coda to the above I say: I wish my technical English was as certain as my technical and idiomatic Arabic. I’m native to neither, however. The truth to the matter is I’m still learning English after eight years of living in England.

    Thus, when I have discharged myself into too many females; when I have emptied enough bottles of whisky; and, when I have got over all or most the current personal dramas and psychological troubles, say, in five years’ time, then I intend to focus my attention on debunking as well as artistically engaging with the Qur’an using my understanding of traditional tasfir, Classical Arabic and MSA as well as Quranic commentary within the context of Sunni schools of thought in tasfir, figh, hadith, tarigh and Aquidah.

    Further, I tend to refer to the Syrian born Ibn Taymiyyah a lot on the forum even though this medievalist was born in 1263 and died in 1328 (or Islamically, 661 -726) because this Imam was Usooli (أصولي), that is to say, he was not partisan or faithful to any previous school of thinking within Figh or otherwise. He was thorough and encyclopaediac.

    Ibn Taymiyyah’s approach to Figh is consistent with whatever is most valid in terms of the evidence from Al-kittab and Sunnah. Thus, he picked and chose whatever he found most accurate and supported by evidence, and he never faithfully adhered to any particular Imam or Mathhab. The old boy went over the top in some practical Sufi stuff, I grant you that.

    So, this was the analytical approach my then teacher, Ibn Uthaymeen, had impressed on me; never to place too much regard on an individual Imam, but what this or that individual says which is supported by textual evidence.

    This in practice meant that I needed to know what each of the four schools of Figh had to say in whatever matter I was investigating. And I sought consensus in tafsir where it was really difficult to come by, because of things like complementary or free variation where, for me, philosophical problems, like indeterminacy, still arise. If not, then all it seems (that X is as much probable as Y in the “it's also said” or “وقيل ايضا”) like having one’s own cake and eating it.

    I have thus far been conclusively reading what Muslim scholars said and say about Islam and Islamic texts in Arabic. I have not yet read one book on Islam in English (well, I tossed one English book away after reading 40 pages of it, because I was very disappointed in it, and the thing which got me to read it in the first place was because it is written by an international barrister, who is Cambridge and Harvard educated; the book is ambitiously entitled by its Muslim author as Heaven on Earth: A Journey Through Shari'a Law -- pathetic really). So, simple things like referring to Quranic chapters by number for me is still a bit of novelty. But I will read the article you referred me to as soon as I reach sobriety.

    A secular friend of mine, Joe, asked me a few hours ago this question: where's the fun in having sex with 72 virgins? It hurts like shit, he said. I told him that Hoor in Arabic is as much reference to their monogamous chastity as to their libidinous stamina; that it has nothing to do with his typical virgin with her hymen intact or underage sex per se, notwithstanding popular things about Muhammad's paedophilia and or ephebophilia.

    -------------
    Updated and proofread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #718 - April 08, 2016, 10:11 AM

    Ian David Morris on tax avoidance under early Islam

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/718341856636071936

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/718350502422016000
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #719 - April 08, 2016, 11:43 AM

    Thanks - a lot to digest there.  Afro

    Oh, have you guys thought about getting together and writing a book on the origins of the Quran? I'm in the process of writing a paper on it as in reviewing the various controversies and main developments in the field of Quranic studies. But, I think you guys could go in a much more deeper perspective looking at sentences =instruction and comparing pre-Quranic Arabic (if you can find an agreeable marker) with Quranic Arabic.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Previous page 1 ... 22 23 2425 26 ... 369 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »