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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1080 - September 18, 2016, 11:00 PM
    Quote
    Since proto-islam seemed to have been a weakly defined ideology in early 7C, there must have been something else binding the conquerers.


    "Let's go raid these people and take all their stuff" works pretty well to unite groups of raiders until the victims start resisting. As of 630ish CE, the Byzantine Empire wasn't able to do much resisting and the Sasanian Empire was almost dead on its feet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1081 - September 19, 2016, 10:41 AM
    Quote from: Zimriel on September 18, 2016, 11:00 PM
    "Let's go raid these people and take all their stuff" works pretty well to unite groups of raiders until the victims start resisting. As of 630ish CE,........   the Byzantine Empire wasn't able to do much resisting and the Sasanian Empire was almost dead on its feet.

    Hello Zimriel .,   irrespective of the reasons for the down fall of  Byzantine   and the Sasanian Empire .,  it is interesting to explore  THOSE RAIDS in early Islamic history . ., Question is when did those raids started and by who? what all I know  about these raids in so-called "Muhammad's time" is this   .,  let put this Chronological History of  Islam during Prophet's Time  

    Quote
    545: Birth of Abdullah, the Holy Prophet's father.
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    Quote
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow

    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph


    that is the Islam dung the times of so-called Prophet of Islam  ... now you tell me something about those raids  when? where and by whom??

    Quote
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_raids
    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/raid-caravans.aspx
    http://www.islam-watch.org/home/59-kammuna/1508-how-did-muhammad-make-a-living.html
    https://disqus.com/home/channel/religion/discussion/channel-religion/what_was_the_motive_of_attack_at_nakhla/

    I think early Islamic history is completely screwed up and no one knows how to extract real history that is created by these  so-called Caliph scoundrels  from 8th to 10th centuries..

    with best regards..
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1082 - September 19, 2016, 11:41 AM
    An interesting exercise would be to list all "historical" islamic events for the complete 7 C and mark the ones for which there is real historic proof.

    I think all the ones you listed Yeez are only mentioned in the "islamic mythology", no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1083 - September 19, 2016, 01:39 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 19, 2016, 11:41 AM
    An interesting exercise would be to list all "historical" islamic events for the complete 7 C and mark the ones for which there is real historic proof.

    I think all the ones you listed Yeez are only mentioned in the "islamic mythology", no?

    you are absolutely right there dear mundi.,   .Indeed that list is from Islamic mythological stories/sayings written by alleged earlier Muslims way after alleged death of "Muhammad"   an UNKNOWN PROPHET OF  ISLAM..

    As far as total  7th century Islam is concerned ..it would be nice if you could start a new folder on that subject and you can use that folder in the resource center at http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0   and ideally you should start with the day alleged Prophet of Islam was born .

    that is year  571  to his death and that is year 632  as one section and then rest of the 7th century history  all the way up to   Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa. in the year 700

    And I tell you all that 100 year Islamic history is  can-full of warms

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1084 - September 19, 2016, 02:39 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 17, 2016, 01:01 AM
    The "proto-islamic" forces: How much was religion (proto-islam) the binding factor at the beginning?

    I'm not sure, but the fact that later narratives make religion central doesn't necessarily mean it really was so central.
    Quote
    Syriac sources  (cfr Penn) seem to indicate that religion was not what identified the new rulers but rather ethnicity.

    The victims may have seen the invaders as one group, 'tayaye', 'saracens' or whatever, but how far does this really indicate a shared ethnic identity among people from different tribes and regions, speaking, at least to some extent, different dialects and languages? Maybe there's a distinction to be made between a clearly Arabic speaking and proto-Islamic ruling faction and all the tribal groups that were allied with them.
    Quote
    Maybe after being victorious, these proto-islamic forces got a "winners bonus" and other related peoples wanted to join the maelstrom?

    I'd say the related peoples were already on board when it came to invading Roman and Persian territories. It may be an open question how much centralised control there was, at least at the start, and how far it was about nominally allied groups conducting tribal raids on their own account and finding that they were pushing at an open door.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1085 - September 19, 2016, 03:38 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 16, 2016, 11:53 PM
    The Tayaye must have come from somewhere and must have been quite numerous to impose their dominance and their culture. Compare with the Germanic invasions in Italy, they imposed their dominance but not so much their culture.

    The fundamental difference may be that Goths and others tended to settle on the land, displacing local landowners and aristocracies but eventually being absorbed into the wider culture and population, whereas 'Arab' armies were settled in garrison towns, paid from the taxation systems inherited from the previous rulers and ended up, perhaps without much conscious planning, imposing their culture, language and religion on the society around them. It isn't necessarily a question of numbers and in fact the numbers may not have been so great for the territory they controlled. Of course the garrison towns must have played a part in creating a shared ethnic and religious identity in the first place.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1086 - September 19, 2016, 06:12 PM
    One of the first non-muslim sources giving info on Mohammed:

    Theophanos (around 800AD):

    http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009/07/17/theophanes-in-english/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1087 - September 19, 2016, 06:32 PM
    Zeca,

    Quote
    It isn't necessarily a question of numbers and in fact the numbers may not have been so great for the territory they controlled.


    I would understand that if the new rulers would have had a "superior" culture to offer. But beginning 7C, I cant imagine that was the case for the new masters: There is no indication of them bringing superior elements except on the battle field. If the arabs (or whatever they were called) were just knit together for the plunder with no other well defined ideology, what were the chances of this new culture being formed, pushing away the well established Assyrian and Greek ones?

    It´s as if we are missing an important element... Gallez would say (I think...quite a complicated theory...)  it was the Judeo-Nazarean ideology, waiting for the Messiah, only later being transformed to Islam..
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1088 - September 19, 2016, 07:38 PM
    I'd look to the urban Arab Muslim culture that developed in the garrison towns of Iraq post-conquest.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1089 - September 20, 2016, 04:36 AM
    I just finished reading Robert Hoyland's In God's Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire.

    Given Hoyland was a student of Patricia Crone, I'm surprised how traditionalist Hoyland turns out to be. Here's a summary of the book's conclusion on page 227-230:

    1. The use of Arab nomad armies explains the rapidity of the conquest. Nomads are accustomed to fighting in daily life, are highly mobile, and aren't agriculturalists so they have no home commitments.
    2. Arab tribes already served Byzantine and Persian armies, acquiring training and knowledge, making them partly insiders rather than purely outsiders.
    3. The armies offered peaceful terms for towns who submitted without fighting. So not all areas were conquered by force.
    4. Enlistment of non-Arabs and non-Muslims into the Arab armies increased their size and maintained their gains.
    5. The unifying role of Islam: "it was different enough from Christianity and Judaism to make it distinctive, but similar enough to make it palatable". Compare this to other nomad invasions, where the conquerors always adopt the conquered people's religion and culture soon after (noone converted to Mongol shamanism, instead Mongols became Muslims and Buddhists).
    6. Economic and other benefits encouraged the conquered to become Muslims, eg. tax-free status and bureaucratic positions. 7. The Arabs enslaved so many people and fathered so many children that the slaves usually adopted Islam, and so did all their descendants.
    8. Islamic civilization developed through the absorption of two different civilizations, Byzantine and the entirety of Persia. Moving the capital to Baghdad, close to Persia's ancient capital, transformed "the Arabs' local Abrahamic cult from west Arabia into a world religion and the centerpiece of a thriving new civilization".

    ----------

    Even when using Christian and Muslim primary sources, as Hoyland does, this doesn't differ markedly from the traditional story of the Arab conquest. Quranic studies seems to offer more latitude to explore revisionist ideas on the origins of Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1090 - September 20, 2016, 03:52 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 19, 2016, 06:12 PM
    One of the first non-muslim sources giving info on Mohammed:

    Theophanos (around 800AD):

    http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2009/07/17/theophanes-in-english/

    Some thoughts on the sources for Theophanes:

    Maria Conterno - Striking a match on Byzantium’s “Dark Age”: evidence of historiographical production between the VII and VIII centuries in Theophanes’ Chronographia and three Syriac chronicles
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1091 - September 20, 2016, 04:17 PM
    Garth Fowden and Elizabeth Key Fowden - Studies on Hellenism, Christianity and the Umayyads

    http://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstream/10442/7459/2/A01.037.0.pdf
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1092 - September 20, 2016, 04:55 PM
    Michael Pregill - Rethinking Late Antiquity—A Review of Garth Fowden, Before and After Muḥammad: The First Millennium Refocused

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/rla/
    Quote
    Among the scholars who sought to adopt, refine, and develop Brown’s approach to the period, it was Garth Fowden—currently Sultan Qaboos Professor of Abrahamic Faiths at Cambridge—who produced what was perhaps the most important work in this area in the 1990s: From Empire to Commonwealth: Consequences of Monotheism in Late Antiquity. When I was a graduate student, Fowden’s work impacted me profoundly. The book is ambitious in scope, wildly imaginative, willing to explore the period in terrifyingly broad terms, but in pursuit of a single cogent thesis: that the entire history of the Middle East and eastern Mediterranean from the second through the ninth century CE can be understood in terms of a sequence of imperial projects aiming to establish God’s rule on earth. That is, the unifying theme of the era, one that distinguishes it from the civilization of the ancient world and sets the stage for the medieval cultures of Byzantium, Western Christendom, and the Dār al-Islām, is the use of monotheism as the primary justification for statebuilding, for literally global dominion (as far as that was possible in the pre-modern world). In Fowden’s work, the use of religion to justify imperial authority becomes the thread that links Christian Rome, Sasanian Iran, and the caliphates and that allows us to see the significant continuities between them with clarity.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1093 - September 20, 2016, 05:18 PM
    Elizabeth Key Fowden - Sharing Holy Places

    https://www.academia.edu/7560580/_Sharing_holy_places_Common_Knowledge_8_2002_124-46

    Elizabeth Key Fowden - The lamp and the wine flask: Early Muslim interest in Christian monasticism

    https://www.academia.edu/7560575/_The_lamp_and_the_wine_flask_Early_Muslim_interest_in_Christian_monasticism_in_A._Akasoy_J.E._Montgomery_and_P._Pormann_edd._Islamic_crosspollinations_Interactions_in_the_Medieval_Middle_East_Cambridge_2007_1-28

    Elizabeth Key Fowden - Christian monasteries and Umayyad residences in late antique Syria

    https://www.academia.edu/15554170/_Christian_monasteries_and_Umayyad_residences_in_late_antique_Syria_in_J.Ma_Blázquez_Mart%C3%ADnez_and_A._González_Blanco_eds_Sacralidad_y_Arqueologia_Murcia_2004_565-581
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1094 - September 20, 2016, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: Zimriel on September 17, 2016, 01:30 AM
    Further to the east, yes, one can find Mahra who still don't speak Arabic... But in the west, around Sanaa, the Yemenis spoke a language very close to Arabic - Himyaritic (Chaim Rabin, "Ancient West-Arabian"). Those Yemenis would at least have been able to muddle through with the western Arabian trade-tongue.

    There seems to be some disagreement about Himyaritic...

    Peter Stein - The "Himyaritic" Language in pre-Islamic Yemen. A Critical Re-evaluation

    http://www.academia.edu/7131364/The_Himyaritic_Language_in_pre-Islamic_Yemen._A_Critical_Re-evaluation._In_Semitica_et_Classica_1_2008_pp._203-212

    Imar Koutchoukali - Defining Ḥimyaritic: The linguistic landscape of southwest Arabia in the early Islamic period according to the testimony of the 9th century scholar al-Hamdani

    https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/38403/Koutchoukali,%20I.%20-%20Defining%20Himyaritic.pdf?sequence=1

    Marijn van Putten - Himyaritic: Old Yemeni Arabic? [but see Al-Jallad's comment at the end]

    http://phoenixblog.typepad.com/blog/2016/08/himyaritic-old-yemeni-arabic.html

    Edit: In 1950 Saudi Arabia had a population of 3.1 million and Yemen had a population of 4.3 million. I'm not sure how the populations of 7th century Arabia could be estimated, but if the 20th century figures are any guide this suggests speakers of South Arabian languages in Muhammad's new empire would have outnumbered speakers of Arabic.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1095 - September 20, 2016, 09:54 PM
    Quote from: Zimriel on September 18, 2016, 11:00 PM
    "Let's go raid these people and take all their stuff" works pretty well to unite groups of raiders until the victims start resisting. As of 630ish CE, the Byzantine Empire wasn't able to do much resisting and the Sasanian Empire was almost dead on its feet.

    That's why the conquest of Syria and then Palestine (Yarmuk 636 then Jerusalem 637/38) came from Iraq, not from the South...where there was no nomadic arabophone population organized to do so. Contrary to the Iraqis which have since 150 years the experience of great battles vs the Arabs/Ghassanids and the Romans. Moreover the chronological progression of the conquest is full of contradictions in the traditional account because of the story of Muhammad which talk about of South Western Arabia. So they had to integrate this data to invent an invasion from the South.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1096 - September 20, 2016, 11:28 PM
    the conquests were pretty amazing no matter which way you look at it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1097 - September 20, 2016, 11:45 PM
    Not so much, it was a copy-paste of the Persian one of 603.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1098 - September 20, 2016, 11:50 PM
    If you say so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1099 - September 21, 2016, 07:04 PM
    Previously we were discussing how the rasm of the Quran has been transmitted almost perfectly for centuries starting beginning 7C.
    Scribes involved in this could have learned the trade  in Christian or Jewish scribal centers.

    The reading of the En- Gedi scrolls (100 AD?) proves that a similar transmission had previously occurred for the OT. The skeleton consonant Hebrew text of Leviticus seems to be identical to the medieval OT-text.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/science/ancient-sea-scrolls-bible.html?_r=0

    Interesting parallel, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1100 - September 21, 2016, 08:46 PM
    Thomas Small - Wars of Religion (review of Hugh Kennedy's The Caliphate)

    http://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/wars-of-religion/?CMP=Spklr-_-Editorial-_-TWITTER-_-TheTLS-_-20160921-_-ArtsandCulture-_-593017710
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1101 - September 21, 2016, 11:29 PM
    zeca, good call to post Keith Thomas Small's review in this "Qur'anic studies today" thread.

    Kennedy claimed that the Qur'an doesn't mention the caliphate. But that's not true, and his reviewer Small brings examples how it does. He first notes my favourite verse Q. 38:26. But there's more - according to Small, sura 2 "the cow" (a sura I haven't yet come to grips with) is "in essence a long excursus on the idea of a caliph".

    Non-Muslim sources and early Muslim sources sometimes treat sura 2 as somehow separate from the Qur'an; the Monk at Bet Hale, famously. Perhaps this is the shadow of the first Muslims' theory of the Qur'an: first the Prophet, and then the Caliphs, received God's Revelation. If Small is right then sura 2 seems more appropriate to the latter.

    HODOR: because I can't read, I meant Thomas of course
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1102 - September 21, 2016, 11:38 PM
    One thing that has always interested me about Q 2 is that it spells the name "Abraham" differently than the rest of the Qur'an.  In Q 2 spelling of the name, there is no medial y.  So the name as spelled in Q 2 can still be read as Abraham, just like the name was normally pronounced in Judaism/Christianity.  In all the other surahs of the Qur'an, it is always spelled 'brhym, which was probably originally pronounced something like abrahaym, but became pronounced as ibrahiim by Islamic tradition ... Classical Arabic flattened a lot of -ays into either long a or long i, losing their original quranic vocalization, hence alif maqsurah.

    This is interesting for a lot of reasons, not least of which that is is impossible for Q 2 to be produced by the same scribal group as the others.  It must have been isolated for some reason.  Nobody would have spelled it one way, every time, in just one surah, and then switched to a different spelling for the rest of the surahs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1103 - September 21, 2016, 11:43 PM
    Zimriel - yes, I thought it was interesting and was wondering about people's thoughts on Qur'anic references to the caliphate. Incidentally this is by Thomas Small, the co-writer of a book on al-Qaeda, rather than Keith Small, the scholar of early Islam. He seems well informed on the history though.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1104 - September 22, 2016, 09:23 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 20, 2016, 11:50 PM
    If you say so.


    I do not really see how it could be different : if you look at the Persian invasion of 602/3, the Iraqis follows exactly the same way except they do not care of Anatolia, they run directly to their Arab rivals of the West in Al Jabiya and crushed them at Yarmuk.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1105 - September 22, 2016, 10:11 AM
    On terminology...

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Muhājirūn as a Name for the First/Seventh Century Muslims

    http://www.academia.edu/11682900/Muhājirūn_as_a_Name_for_the_First_Seventh_Century_Muslims_JNES_

    Some comments: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/581834123670659072
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1106 - September 22, 2016, 12:24 PM
    On terminology, I think we can add Kerr´s article as an addition to Lindstedt´s.

    http://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    more elaborate but in German http://www.academia.edu/1564934/Annus_Hegiræ_vel_Annus_H_Agarorum_Etymologische_und_vergleichende_Anmerkungen_zum_Anfang_der_islamischen_Jahres zählung

    He takes the doubt on what the words mean a step further and says hajara initially (and in Quran) never meant "to emigrate". Lindstedt´s article didn´t really manage to totally convince me  it did...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1107 - September 22, 2016, 03:24 PM
    Sean Anthony - early 8th century papyrus and earliest attestation to the *full* text of Suras 1, 113 and 114
    (edited to reflect Sean Anthony's correction)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/778677850849234944

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1108 - September 23, 2016, 09:14 AM
    Quote from: zeca on September 22, 2016, 03:24 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/778677850849234944

    Quote
    Sean W. Anthony ‏@shahanSean
    @DerMenschensohn 1/2 The papyrus is (admittedly) dated using paleography, but Ohlig & Co. clearly are ignorant of the material evidence.



    Paleography is essentially an art that is sold as scientific style  of analyzing and reading ooold hand  writings. But at the end it has to relay on carbon dating without that it has very little value .  If anyone does such analysis on the present Quran  they will easily come to the conclusion from its style. that it is NOT from one person.,
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1109 - September 23, 2016, 10:28 PM
    Any idea what the theory is about 113 and 114 being late additions? And why it´s controversial?
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