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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1770 - February 25, 2018, 04:35 PM

    Mohammed  has never existed because "Mecca" did not exist before Islam. But the Quranic text did.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1771 - February 25, 2018, 04:53 PM

    Quote
    Mohammed  has never existed because "Mecca" did not exist before Islam.

    No question Mecca certainly did not exist pre-Islam.  Have you heard of the Petra = Mecca theory? I found this intriguing ->
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOxZl60MyqE&t=2885s

    "I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth" - Steve McQueen
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1772 - February 26, 2018, 09:08 AM

    Thread on the orthography of the Cairo Edition: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/967868593156313088
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1773 - February 27, 2018, 01:34 AM

    No question Mecca certainly did not exist pre-Islam.  Have you heard of the Petra = Mecca theory? I found this intriguing ->
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOxZl60MyqE&t=2885s


    Yes. But what is the most intriguing is that the traditional account describes "Mecca" city as a physical clone of Petra (environment, road, etc).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1774 - February 27, 2018, 10:07 AM

    Quote
    ...................... "Mecca" ..................................

    ...................... Mecca ......................

    Yes......................."Mecca"......................


    on that  word  "Mecca"  let me add this  article of  Justin  Maeozzi  Mecca: the greatest paradox of the Islamic world



    Quote
    Mecca is the greatest paradox of the Islamic world. .........Home to the Kaaba, a pagan-era cube of black granite said to have been built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, it is the lodestar to which 1.6 billion Muslims direct their five daily prayers. Mecca is the single point on the planet around which Muslims revolve — quite literally for those able to perform the once gruelling, now simply expensive, pilgrimage or haj.

    ....................................................................

    A sacred sanctuary where feuding tribes set aside their differences long before the advent of Islam, Mecca nevertheless has been no stranger to violence over the centuries. One can only guess at what the Prophet Mohammed would have made of the extraordinary instance of cannibalistic fratricide in 1314. After the ruler Abu Nomay abdicated, his son Humaida, bent on preserving power in the teeth of rivalry from his brothers, killed one of them and invited the others to dinner. In a scene more worthy of The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover than a family reunion in the holy of holies, they were horrified to find the body of their brother Abul Ghaith as the pièce de résistance — cooked whole and served well done.

    ......................................
    Quote
    Sceptical about the Saudi regime, Sardar is less questioning of the traditional accounts of Mecca by early Muslim historians. He refers to ‘the sanctity and centuries of deference that must accompany Muslim readings of Mecca’ when a little less deference might be in order. Important revisionist histories of pre-Islamic and early Islamic Mecca by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, among others, which cast doubt on the city’s primacy as a centre of trade and pilgrimage, deserve more engagement than an endnote.


    The Saudis quite rightly get it in the neck here. One does not need to be a historian to wince at their desecration of Mecca’s built environment. Sites of immeasurable historical interest and significance, such as the Bilal mosque, which dates to the Prophet’s time, have been bulldozed in recent decades. The house belonging to Mohammed’s most revered wife Khadijah is now a public lavatory, an apt symbol of the Saudi regime. Looming 1,972 feet over the sacred shrine in an unholy cross between Big Ben and Las Vegas, the Makkah Royal Clock Tower stands on an estimated 400 sites of cultural and historical importance.

    Saudi clerics want to demolish the Prophet’s house for fear that Muslims could start praying to Mohammed rather than Allah. Anyone looking for the house of Abu Bakr, Mohammed’s closest companion and the first caliph of the Muslim empire, will find instead the Makkah Hilton, a garish edifice that has no business overlooking the Kaaba. But then business appears to be what it is all about. If the Hilton is full, incidentally, visitors can find additional accommodation on Airbnb.

    Quote
    Nor does the destruction end there. The exquisite, Ottoman-era section of the mosque is the oldest surviving part of the sanctuary. Its marble columns, resplendent with carved Islamic calligraphy dating back to the 16th- and 17th-century Sultans Suleiman, Salim I and Murads III and IV, are due to give way to multi-storey prayer halls 80m high.


    Quote
    This is not the rebarbative carping of an infidel reviewer. Many Muslims, not least Sardar, find the architectural destruction and transformation of Mecca profoundly troubling. ‘What the Saudis have done to Mecca is completely ghastly,’ a British Muslim told me recently. ‘It’s a retail extravaganza right up to the Great Mosque. During my haj, the last things I saw before turning towards the Kaaba were a Samsonite shop and Häagen-Dazs. They’ve turned Mecca into a shopping mall.’ ........................................ they have hijacked and perverted the religion they purport to define.


    Yet for all the Saudis’ ruinous genius for kitsch and extremism, Sarda’s Mecca at least will remain ‘a place of eternal harmony, something worth living for and striving to attain. It has always been and it will always be.’

    This is a captivating history and memoir, a hymn of love to a place sacred to the world’s Muslims, soured by a family wholly corrupted by petrodollars.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1775 - February 27, 2018, 04:32 PM

    Yes. But what is the most intriguing is that the traditional account describes "Mecca" city as a physical clone of Petra (environment, road, etc).

    Absolutely, the fertile soil, etc, stunning.

    Quote from: yeezevee
    on that  word  "Mecca"  let me add this  article of  Justin  Maeozzi  Mecca: the greatest paradox of the Islamic world

    It is shocking and sad how the Saudis destroyed historic sites, turned it into a money making Disney Land.  I knew that about the mosque being bulldozed, and knew about Khadijah's home not being preserved, but didn't know they had built a lavatory over it, damn :(

    "I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth" - Steve McQueen
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1776 - March 01, 2018, 10:08 PM

    Peter Webb - Ethnicity, Power and Umayyad Society: The Rise and Fall of the People of Ma'add

    https://www.academia.edu/36053739/Ethnicity_Power_and_Umayyad_Society_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_People_of_Maadd
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1777 - March 02, 2018, 07:58 PM

    Peter Webb et alii still have not given any source which would validate the "Meccan" origin of Muawiya... It seems urgent now to unmask the hoax or so called "scholars" of Early Islam will lose again credibility...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1778 - March 02, 2018, 08:17 PM

    Peter Webb et alii still has not given any source which would validate the "Meccan" origin of Muawiya... ...............


    Well Peter Webb follows/believes that  classical  in breeding Clan story of early Islam, Muhammad and his ancestors... As we all know the usual story begins  like this ..
    Quote
    http://www.academia.edu/7492001/The_Islamic_Treasure_of_Virtues-2

    http://www.academia.edu/11408921/History_of_Umayyad_Caliph
    Quote
    Muawiyah bin Abi-Sufyan was born in Mecca to Abu Sufyan ibn Harb and Hind bint Utbah (602 CE) into the Banu Umayya sub-clan of the Banu Abd-Shams clan of the Quraysh tribe. The Quraysh controlled the city of Mecca (in the west of present-day Saudi Arabia) and the Banu Abd-Shams were among the most influential of its citizens.
    Quote
    His father Abu Sufyan struggled against Islam until Muhammad's army entered Mecca in 630. Muawiyah, Muhammad and Ali shared the same great-great grandfather, ‘Abd Manaf bin Qusay, who had four sons: Hashim, Muttalib, Nawfal, and Abdu Shams. Hashim was the great grandfather of Ali and Muhammad.  Umayyah bin Abdu Shams was the great grandfather of Muawiyah

    .
    Muawiyah and remaining members of his family were open opponents of the Muslims before the ascendancy of Muhammad. Along with his two older brothers Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan and Utbah, Muawiyah was one of the members of the hunting party of his maternal uncle Walid bin Utbah that pursued Muhammad during the hijra (migration), when Muhammad was hiding in Ghar al-Thawr (Cave of the Bull).

    In 630, Muhammad and his followers entered Mecca, and most of the Meccans, including the Abd-Shams clan, formally submitted to Muhammad and accepted Islam. Similarly Muawiyah, along with his father Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, outwardly became Muslims at the conquest of Mecca,


    Those early Islamic children    stories are as good as those Harry Potter  fantasy stories of  J. K. Rowling.  

    Islam, the arabs and Umayyad rulers according to Theophanes



    Stories are from Muslim story tellers and BOOKS ON  PSEUDO ISLAMIC HISTORY come  from western university religious department faculties based on stories Muslim story tellers

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1779 - March 02, 2018, 11:00 PM

    Peter Webb - Yemeni Identity in Abbasid Iraq: from the Sublime to the Ridiculous

    https://www.academia.edu/36053619/Yemeni_Identity_in_Abbasid_Iraq_from_the_Sublime_to_the_Ridiculous
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1780 - March 03, 2018, 10:19 AM

    Patricia Crone - Were the Qays and Yemen of the Umayyad period political parties?

    https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Qays-Yemen.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1781 - March 03, 2018, 04:11 PM

    Thread on the word “kalāla” in the Qur’an: https://mobile.twitter.com/GhileneH/status/969910360584146944
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1782 - March 03, 2018, 06:01 PM

    Thread on the word “kalāla” in the Qur’an: https://mobile.twitter.com/GhileneH/status/969910360584146944

    it  would  be  funny people writing papers, books,discussion folders on each word of Quran ...  THAT WOULD CERTAINLY COVER THE SANDS OF WHOLE SAND LAND WITH BOOKS..

    we  don't have  such   single word debates on other Abrahamic faith books..  i wonder why?  is it because  people  have strange fascination with Quran..

    anyways on that word  “kalāla” Pavel Pavlovitch  wrote a book...  with  a heading  The Formation of the Islamic Understanding of Kalāla in the Second Century AH (718-816 CE). Between Scripture and Canon.

    Quote
    The question “What does  kalāla mean?” relates, therefore, to three wider historical issues: (1) the history of the  Quran, (2) the formation of Islamic law, and (3) the development of Muslim exegesis.  David Powers’ pioneering research on kalāla   highlights the significance of this word for the history of the Quran. The syntactic and semantic opacity of Q 4:12 suggested to Powers that, in its original form, this verse dealt with a legal issue other than inheritance by collaterals, as agreed by Muslim exegetes and  jurists. Powers posited that, initially, the verse included the word * kalla signifying ‘daughter-in-law,’ and treated cases of testate succession in which a person contemplating death might appoint as his testamentary heir a daughter-in-law or a wife. Between  640–70 the original *kalla" was changed to  kalāla.   and, accordingly, the verse came to refer to intestate succession by collateral relatives.  The revision of Q 4:12 triggered a legal chain reaction: in its new form, the verse appears to limit the inheritance of siblings, as the closest surviving relatives of the deceased, to one-third of the estate, without specifying the recipients of the remaining two-thirds. The legal incompleteness of Q 4:12 was offset by a supplementary legislation inserted at the end of Sura al-Nisāʾ  what is presently known as Q 4:176 envisages scenarios in which siblings inherit the entire estate..

     
    what ever...............on the way let me remember this great guy  and his blog on Kalāla”.,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bjv2t7PC7E
    Nabeel Qureshi (1983-2017) -  RIP

    Partial taping on kalāla in one early muṣḥaf  by Nabeel Qureshi

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1783 - March 04, 2018, 10:47 PM

    An interesting synthesis about Sanaa MS's variants  from the work of Asma Hilali and some other things by Jay Smith.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oJ_ukzi9es
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1784 - March 08, 2018, 05:29 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/971175820810178560
    Quote from: Sean Anthony
    Why is this inscription extraordinary? It’s one of the earliest attestations to: 1) the Muslim confession of faith; 2) early Islamic discourse on martyrdom; 3) the Sacred Mosque/the Kaʿbah/Mecca; and 4) the reconstruction of the Mecca after the second civil war.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1785 - March 08, 2018, 05:52 PM

    Awesome thread, although translating ‘built’ as ‘re-built’ seems unduly argumentative ... if the original is ambiguous insofar as it’s a basic perfect tense verb, then it should be rendered in the same ambiguous form in English. Otherwise it gets close to creative Qur’an translation in which pronouns are converted to proper nouns and names because we ‘know’ what the text intends to specify by using them, rather than just specifying what it does state.

    The intent to interpretively foreclose an ‘incorrect’ understanding of the literal plain meaning of the language seems unjustified, even if that gloss is likely correct.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1786 - March 08, 2018, 10:29 PM

    There is no Mecca  before islam as a city capable to raise, feed, equip 50,000 strong to wage war against the Persians and Romans in 632.  As this text indicates, there was a Kaaba in ruins or not even build in 697 meaning that there was no people in the place (as it seems normal because there is no food to feed them ) 60 years after the victory of the immense army of the "prophet" (we could believe that we are in Frank Herbert's Dune...) in the place.
    I'm still waiting sources to validate the existence of this city. Since Sean Anthony affirm that it existed before islam, it is perforce as the scientific he is, that he has hidden the sources which validates this fact from the field. Because to my knowledge, nobody in the field has ever produced one to scientifically validate its existence before Islam. Can someone ask him what sources he has hidden  to scientifically attests this fact. It is very simple, I ask epigraphical, archaeological, scriptural sources which attests its existence before Islam. Otherwise I will be obliged to consider him a Muslim and not a scientific.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1787 - March 09, 2018, 10:12 AM

    .
    Quote
    .................I'm still waiting sources to validate the existence of this city. Since Sean Anthony affirm that it existed before islam, it is perforce as the scientific he is, that he has hidden the sources which validates this fact from the field. Because to my knowledge, nobody in the field has ever produced one to scientifically validate its existence before Islam. Can someone ask him what sources he has hidden  to scientifically attests this fact. It is very simple

    ,


    http://osu.academia.edu/SeanAnthony
    https://twitter.com/shahansean?lang=en

    well  dear Altara  you  could directly ask him those questions  through twitter ..  website..e-mail..  whatever..

    Quote
    I ask epigraphical, archaeological, scriptural sources which attests its existence before Islam. Otherwise I will be obliged to consider him a Muslim and not a scientific.

    well  for  some of these guys  who are faculties  in religious departments,  they  do not really inquire   THE HISTORY  OF FAITHS AND FAITH BOOKS but They continuously write  nonsesnse hero worshiping  stories out of old faith  tales,

    they do  that for their bread and butter but unfortunately they  end up playing in to the hand faith based political organizations with  their silly stories/assertions  in this 21st century....

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1788 - March 09, 2018, 10:20 AM

    Quote

    Quote from: Sean Anthony
    Quote
    Why is this inscription extraordinary? It’s one of the earliest attestations to: 1) the Muslim confession of faith; 2) early Islamic discourse on martyrdom; 3) the Sacred Mosque/the Kaʿbah/Mecca; and 4) the reconstruction of the Mecca after the second civil war.



    those words    "the second civil war."  are wrong.,      it should be  "the second world war."

    So  one should read that  statement as ,,the reconstruction of the Mecca after the second  world  war  .. .............. not the second civil war...............

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1789 - March 10, 2018, 11:17 PM

    Some argue that Islam originated in northern Syria. Even the location of the Kaaba is identified, it is said. Concerning Gibson, it doubtful that Petra was the birth place of early Islam. Many of his assertions lack  topo-paleographic arguments. His thesis has also been criticized by some scholars (e.g. King, Gürsey, Gallez, etc.) and other knowledgeable people. According to a notable critic, the only link between early Islam and Petra seem to be conflict between the Zubayrids and the Marwanids.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1790 - March 11, 2018, 01:59 AM


    http://osu.academia.edu/SeanAnthony
    https://twitter.com/shahansean?lang=en

    well  dear Altara  you  could directly ask him those questions  through twitter ..  website..e-mail..  whatever..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Well dear yeezevee I will not. That is why I ask some to do it. I will not because S.Anthony will not respond. He is a great believer of the traditional account like any other Muslim, and, I'm afraid, many scholars in the field. But it's a general understatement to NEVER ask this question. Never. 1) because they are believer, 2) They know that P. Crone was menaced and obliged to flee in USA because she wrote Hagarism.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1791 - March 11, 2018, 01:41 PM

    There is no Mecca  before islam as a city capable to raise, feed, equip 50,000 strong to wage war against the Persians and Romans in 632.  As this text indicates, there was a Kaaba in ruins or not even build in 697 meaning that there was no people in the place (as it seems normal because there is no food to feed them ) 60 years after the victory of the immense army of the "prophet" (we could believe that we are in Frank Herbert's Dune...) in the place.
    I'm still waiting sources to validate the existence of this city. Since Sean Anthony affirm that it existed before islam, it is perforce as the scientific he is, that he has hidden the sources which validates this fact from the field. Because to my knowledge, nobody in the field has ever produced one to scientifically validate its existence before Islam. Can someone ask him what sources he has hidden  to scientifically attests this fact. It is very simple, I ask epigraphical, archaeological, scriptural sources which attests its existence before Islam. Otherwise I will be obliged to consider him a Muslim and not a scientific.



    Sean Anthony is currently working on paper in which he will argue that the sacrality of Mecca is supported by the Quranic corpus and also by non-Arabic literature from the relevant period. In other words, Anthony will thinks that currently, the best explanation of the facts is that Mecca was an important site for Muhammad's followers. This also was the case following Muhammad's death. Anthony's paper is not yet available, but it will be published in 2 years time in the Journal of the International Qur’anic Studies Association. He (i.e. Anthony) also thinks that there is no evidence for the Petra-hypothesis, arguing that

    Others are also working on the Mecca question.

    Guillaume Dye, “Le Coran et son contexte”, 259, n. 10, has pointed out a possible pre-Islamic reference to Mecca in the geographical dictionary Ethnica by Stephanus of Byzantium (fl. 6th century AD): “Μάκαι ἔθνο̋ µεταξὑ Καρµανιἁ καἱ Ἀραβία”. Contra Dye, Anthony thinks that this is not a reference to Mecca and even thinks that there are no pre-Islamic reference to Mecca. Only, 7th-century evidence for Mecca being significant.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1792 - March 11, 2018, 11:33 PM

    Sean Anthony is currently working on paper in which he will argue that the sacrality of Mecca is supported by the Quranic corpus

    Anything to do with what I pointed out. The place of the Kaaba is mentioned in the Quran, nowhere else.

    and also by non-Arabic literature from the relevant period.

    Nobody knew "Mecca" as it is described by Ibn Ishaq before Islam. Therefore it seem to me difficult that the informations related by non-Arabic literature does not come from the muhajirun taught  from people who had read them in the Quran.

     In other words, Anthony will thinks that currently, the best explanation of the facts is that Mecca was an important site for Muhammad's followers.

    Because of the place where there is the Kaaba mentioned in the Quran, nothing else.

    He (i.e. Anthony) also thinks that there is no evidence for the Petra-hypothesis, arguing that

    Arguing what ? Otherwise, the Petra hypothesis which would want that it would be the city of an Arab prophet producing the Quran poses many problems. We do know that Petra was still an active city in the 7th c. The major issue lies in the fact that Petra was Christianized. Of course, all is always possible, but it seems that an Arab prophet living here would have been in a certain way "famous" and that people would have speak of it. You cannot prevent people to speak. So it seems highly improbable and should be set aside. BUT, that Petra as a city was the model of "Mecca" for the historiographers of the 9th.c. is clear.

    Guillaume Dye has, it seems, abandoned this idea of a "Mecca" in the "Hijaz" :

    Quoi qu’il en soit, il y a, et c’est le point sur lequel je voulais en venir, une sérieuse tension, qu’il faut expliquer, d’une façon ou d’une autre, je ne vais pas le faire ici, entre le fait qu’une partie substantielle du Coran relève d’un contexte chrétien, et le fait que le Hijaz, la région d’Arabie où le Coran est censé avoir été proclamé, ne connaît apparemment à l’époque, au mieux, qu’une présence chrétienne marginale, contrairement au reste de l’Arabie et du Proche-Orient. Voilà le genre de question, je dirais, que les historiens devraient avoir à traiter dans les années qui viennent.

    (lecture in Paris, July 2016)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1793 - March 12, 2018, 03:52 AM

    Well dear yeezevee I will not. That is why I ask some to do it. I will not because S.Anthony will not respond.

     Cheesy  Cheesy
    why   what  happened  ?  it appears you  guys know each other from some meetings or conferences 
    well then let me try that.,otherwise we will ask his boss Fred Donner to do that

    Quote
    He is a great believer of the traditional account like any other Muslim, and, I'm afraid, many scholars in the field. But it's a general understatement to NEVER ask this question. Never.

      I am not  sure he is a great believer of Islam but I agree with you there and  there is a serious problem  in religious departments of Universities  to inquire the facts about  faiths and their origins .,  This  became worse  in recent time starting from 1980's  because some  of the Governments and faith propagators FUND THESE DEPARTMENTS due to Amrika oil money flowing in to the sand kings of middle east   

    Quote
    1) because they are believer, 2) They know that P. Crone was menaced and obliged to flee in USA because she wrote Hagarism.


    Patricia Crone  indeed was a great historian  Of Islam..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1794 - March 12, 2018, 04:21 AM

    Quote
    Mohammed  has never existed because "Mecca" did not exist before Islam. But the Quranic text did.


    That's like saying that Jesus never existed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1795 - March 12, 2018, 05:09 AM

    well  these statements  needs bit of correction .........  
    Quote
    Mohammed  OF QURAN has never existed because "Mecca" did not exist before Islam. But SOME PARTS Quranic text did.

    That's like saying that Jesus OF NEW TESTAMENT never existed.



    now they become closer to the facts...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1796 - March 12, 2018, 09:42 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/973021329271218176
    Quote from: Sean Anthony
    I’ve been looking a while for the earliest documentary texts to mention Muḥammad by name or by epithet (nabī|rasūl allāh). New epigraphic finds have been very exciting. But there’s always a risk of something called *the positivist fallacy*. http://www.livius.org/articles/theory/positivist-fallacy/


    Also:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/msmsaifullah/status/973050088007245824

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/973024639604707328

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AENJournal/status/973104012462559233
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1797 - March 12, 2018, 12:02 PM

    Nothing new in this thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1798 - March 12, 2018, 12:44 PM

    Altara,

    Yes. Currently, there seems to be no pre-Islamic reference to Mecca. That might change. But there is, according to Anthony, sources from the 7th century attesting Mecca.

    I am not sure why we need to assume that non-Arab sources are dependent on the testimony of the Hagarenes at all. Sure, they could well be, but the significance of the sources to begin with was their early and independent testimony. But you could be right.

    Concerning Dye, you misunderstood what he was trying to say. Dye argued that Q. 19 originated in Palestine (i.e. outside of Mecca, and this also applies to other so-called Meccan suras). He never argued that the entire Quranic corpus originated in Syro-Palestine. In fact, he does not deny that parts of the Quranic corpus do indeed fit perfectly in Western Arabia (Ḥijāz).  He even says that he sees no reason to abandon the notion that Mecca existed before the advent of Islam. According to him, Mecca did exist, but was not a major trading center, nor was it a major city, but might have been a city that of religious significance. To be fair, he does say due to the obscurity of things pertaining to Mecca, there is indeed room for debate. He also claims, and rightly so, that the existence and size of Medina (Yathrib), as a city playing a role in early Islam, is more certain.











     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1799 - March 12, 2018, 02:22 PM

    Let's just say that all prophets of God, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and many others. They were all fictional characters. Or were they?
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