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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1860 - April 02, 2018, 10:26 PM

    Yeez,

    No sarcasm here.

      Ok  then  we need  to provide proof  for the statement  you have here

    Quote
     I really don't see why we need to believe the Islamic tradition if we concede that an Arabic general named Mohammed attacked the Byzantine empire. I'm not saying there is a direct link between Mohammed and the Quran. There could be, but most probably he had no time to dictate these boring Surahs. If there is a connection he might more likely have outsourced the redaction of a holy text.
    Quote
    Historically we have evidence of a general and of a book. That's about it.

     

    which general   and what book??   let  me put the time line of alleged  Muhammad's  life here  

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. ..

    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.

      

    NO CONQUERING AND NO GENERAL UNTIL THE  YEAR 619

    Quote
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.

    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.

    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.


    So that is what we have on Story  of alleged  Prophet of Islam ..  And  I don't see Byzantine empire.,   neither I see  General  Muhammad Nor I see the book all the way to his alleged death in  year 632


    And   let  us look at   CHRONOLOGY OF BYZANTINE EMPIRE  until Prophet General warlord Muhammad  PBUH's Death

    Quote
    CHRONOLOGY OF BYZANTINE EMPIRE (330-1453 A.D.)

    330 AD:   Constantine founds the new capital of the Roman Empire on the existing site of the ancient Greek city Byzantium:   Byzantium was renamed Constantinople and it would become the capital of the Byzantine Empire.

    395:   The Roman Empire divides in half, with the Eastern Roman Empire based in Constantinople and the Western Roman Empire based in Rome/Ravenna.

    476:   The Western Empire Falls:   The Eastern Empire survives and now is labeled as the Byzantine Empire.

    526:   Justinian's reign begins. He reconquers parts of the fallen Western Empire (Africa and Italy, Spain). He codifies the Previous Roman Laws into one document. Constantinople is the most glorious city in europe, with 500,000 inhabitants. The Hagia Sofia is constructed. Justinian is the last emperor to use the title "Caesar".

    568:   Lombards invade Italy, eventually taking Northern Italy from the Byzantines.

    610:   Heraclius becomes emperor. Temporary possession of Mesopotamia. The theme system is installed. The Empire's language changes to Greek. Eventual Lost of Syria, Palestine, and Egypt to Muslims.

    693:   Muslims attack Constantinople.

    690:   Loss of North Africa to Muslims.

    717-718:   A large Muslim force besiege Constantinople by land and sea. The attack is held off.

    721:   Regains control of Asia Minor from the Muslims

    726:   Emperor Leo III bans the use of Icons.


     So  where is  that General Muhammad Prophet attacking  Byzantine empire ?.  Let me add byzantine empire  map information here

    https://istanbulclues.com/byzantine-empire-map-information-facts/



    byzantine empire  map until year 565....



    byzantine empire  map until year~ 800

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1861 - April 02, 2018, 11:01 PM

    Yeez,

    Shoemaker quotes sources that indicate that Mohammed died later than 632 and was part of the early attacks on Palestine.

    I don't understand why you see Mohammed's lifeline as proof of anything. We know it is Islamic tradition and very late. Probably fantasy , maybe a kernel of truth?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1862 - April 03, 2018, 12:58 AM

    He should first prove that the "Prophet Muḥammad" has existed...


    Altara.

    Personally, chasing Mohammed Life was a fruitless exercise,  there is no early enough documentary evidences to go either way, all I know for the moment is there was a successful Arab prophet somehow connected to yathrib, and early Arab invaders identify with him, I am happy with this rudimentary image, and Mecca was a big deal for the ummyad dynasty.

    I am more interested in Quranic studies now, and rock graffiti, there are a lot to be discovered using early Syriac literature too.  and yes I don't think the quran was a divine book or any book for that matter, that's does not mean, I have to deny all the traditional accounts, it may have some core truth or not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1863 - April 03, 2018, 01:01 AM

    Altara,

    Why are they connected? Is there still any doubt that the traditional account with the description of the life of Mohammed is imagination with at best a core of truth in it?


    They are not "connected". They are identified to one another by the traditional account itself. Mohammed is said born and live in "Mecca", and nowhere else. It happens to be that there is no source about "Mecca". It is the absolute void. There is not a single micro trace of "Mecca" before Islam such as recounted by the traditional account. Since there is no source, there is no city. And no city means no "Prophet". Since there is no Mecca, where is the  "Prophet" ?  in the clouds ? On Mars ? No. there's no "Prophet" at all, like there is no Mecca at all such as recounted by the traditional account (big and rich city bla bla bla... that nobody knows around, which look like Bostra or Antioch...)

    But the Arabs did conquer their empire. And the general who started it was apparently called Mohammed. Isn't that interesting enough without having him connected to Mecca? (which indeed is highly improbable)


    Nope, he was dead before the conquest say the the traditional account. Thus, nobody from outside the little world of "Mecca"/"Medina" has seen him. Dead or alive. Then, from where the people who talk about Mohammed between 640 and 692 to the (I sum up here) "Romans"  ? You can find the response yourself : it starts by Q and ends by N.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1864 - April 03, 2018, 01:26 AM

    Yeez,

    Shoemaker quotes sources that indicate that Mohammed died later than 632 and was part of the early attacks on Palestine.

    I don't understand why you see Mohammed's lifeline as proof of anything. We know it is Islamic tradition and very late. Probably fantasy , maybe a kernel of truth?

    What should we consider  as  proof  for the existence Prophet of Islam  "Muhammad "as depicted in Quran?dear   mundi?

    let  me put the whole book of  Shoemaker  here

    The Death of a Prophet - The End of Muhammad's Life and the Beginnings of Islam

    and  let us read  it carefully ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1865 - April 03, 2018, 01:55 AM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    What should we consider  as  proof  for the existence Prophet of Islam  "Muhammad "as depicted in Quran?


    There is no proof for the existence of Mohammed as depicted in the Quran. In fact , very little of the life of the prophet Mohammed is depicted in the Quran. The ahadith depicts the fantasy life of Mohammed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1866 - April 03, 2018, 02:00 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Nope, he was dead before the conquest say the the traditional account.


    You don't give credence to Shoemaker who concludes a certain Mohammed led the beginning of the conquest on Palestine (post 632)?

                   Where did this general Mohammed build his army? If not in Mecca, where?
    Where were the big Arab population centres? Yatrib? Petra? The Syriac source speak of Tayayye, what was their heartland? Maybe the Arabs came from where the contemporary Syriac population said they came from?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1867 - April 03, 2018, 02:47 AM

    hey are identified to one another by the traditional account itself. Mohammed isYou can find the response yourself : it starts by Q and ends by N.


    I did not understand. What do you mean?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1868 - April 03, 2018, 09:45 AM

    Yeez,

    There is no proof for the existence of Mohammed as depicted in the Quran. In fact , very little of the life of the prophet Mohammed is depicted in the Quran. The ahadith depicts the fantasy life of Mohammed.


    So mundi  you  are agreeing that Quran and Quran  sayings are very little to do with Muhammad.,  and Quranic Muhammad ( a  priest / preaching leader) is no  where in Islam  ., 

    We will deal with hadith Islamic fantasy  later as they are ..HE SAID...SHE SAID ...I SAID  complex narrative conversations.,


     But  first let us deal with that  Shoemaker's  book The Death of a Prophet - The End of Muhammad's Life and the Beginnings of Islam  narrations..

    Altara,

    You don't give credence to Shoemaker who concludes a certain Mohammed led the beginning of the conquest on Palestine (post 632)?

    Yes... I  don't....  Please  read  all original works of  where Shoemaker  gets his narrations of  Muhammad.,  Shoemaker just took Islamic narrations  and shifted dates a bit.,   Does he say "When/where/what year  His Muhammad died??
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1869 - April 03, 2018, 11:32 AM

    Altara,

    You don't give credence to Shoemaker who concludes a certain Mohammed led the beginning of the conquest on Palestine (post 632)?


    Not a second.

    Where did this general Mohammed build his army? If not in Mecca, where?
    Where were the big Arab population centres? Yatrib? Petra? The Syriac source speak of Tayayye, what was their heartland Maybe the Arabs came from where the contemporary Syriac population said they came from?


    Do your homework about this topic. I have outlined the key words.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1870 - April 03, 2018, 11:37 AM

    I did not understand. What do you mean?


    Then, from where the people who talk about Mohammed between 640 and 692 to the (I sum up here) "Romans"  ? You can find the response yourself : it starts by Q and ends by N.

    It seems to me perfectly clear.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1871 - April 03, 2018, 11:50 AM

    Then, from where the people who talk about Mohammed between 640 and 692 to the (I sum up here) "Romans"  ? You can find the response yourself : it starts by Q and ends by N.

    It seems to me perfectly clear.


    Nope   it is not  clear.,   how can that be clear when   you are missing  some letters   between     Q and N.??   Altara  

    So  Question to you..  on   origin of  "Umayyad Caliphate"  and its relation with  the  Cartoon Character of  Islam  "Prophet   Muhammad"?

    what do  you  think is the relationship?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1872 - April 03, 2018, 02:23 PM

    Altara,

    With your Q and your N, I assume you even give less info on what you mean than the Quranic rasm...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1873 - April 04, 2018, 12:04 AM

    worth watching and Good stuff to read

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0mrMofyJl8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzYq_CYv2Ks

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqVpEYDglIQ

    Qurʾans of the Umayyads  .,Léon Buskens (Leiden University) Petra M. Sijpesteijn (Leiden University)  

    WIT AND WISDOM IN CLASSICAL ARABIC LITERATURE



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1874 - April 04, 2018, 08:39 PM

    Nope   it is not  clear.,   how can that be clear when   you are missing  some letters   between     Q and N.??   Altara  

    So  Question to you..  on   origin of  "Umayyad Caliphate"  and its relation with  the  Cartoon Character of  Islam  "Prophet   Muhammad"?

    what do  you  think is the relationship?


    You'll read my book  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1875 - April 04, 2018, 08:43 PM

    Altara,

    With your Q and your N, I assume you even give less info on what you mean than the Quranic rasm...


    Only  the QCT (I take the Van Putten terminology here) speaks of  a figure "Muhammad".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1876 - April 05, 2018, 11:50 PM

    Nicolai Sinai’s podcast on the Qurʾān:

    http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/introducing-quran
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1877 - April 06, 2018, 04:43 AM

    Nicolai Sinai’s podcast on the Qurʾān:

    http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/introducing-quran


    well helloo Mahgraye...      put the links to those four podcasts ...  listen to them  and air your opinion.... 

    Quote
    Dr Nicolai Sinai, Professor of Islamic Studies at the Faculty of Oriental Studies, presents this mini-series of four brief talks that introduces central aspects of current research dealing with the historical context and literary character of the scripture of Islam.

     

    Hovering about the Qur'an without entering into it? On the academic study of the Qur’an.  -   pod cast-1 
     
    Quote
    What does it mean to study the Qur’an historically? In this initial episode we consider how historically oriented research on the Qur’an relates to religious belief and to traditional Islamic scriptural interpretation.


    Rekindling Prophecy: The Qur'an in its historical milieu   -   pod cast-2

    Quote
    This second episode examines the historical context in which the material now collected in the Qur’an was first promulgated. Special attention is paid to the various groups of addressees who figure in the Qur’an



    Confirming and Clarifying: The Qur'an in conversation with earlier Judaeo-Christian traditions   -   pod cast-3 

    Quote
    The Qur’an’s original addressees must have been familiar with earlier Jewish and Christian traditions, which the Qur’an claims both to “confirm” and to “clarify”. Narratives about Abraham and the death of Pharaoh serve to exemplify what this means

     

    The Qur'an as literature.  -  pod cast-4

    Quote
    A principal reason for why the Qur’an managed to establish itself as a text believed to constitute divine revelation is that it is compelling literature. How do Islamic and modern Western scholars approach the Qur’an’s literary dimension?



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1878 - April 06, 2018, 12:19 PM

    Sinai is a great believer. He presents himself as an "historian". Unfortunately he is not. (yawn...) He still has no sources to show about the great and rich city of Mecca before Islam in the lunar and barren landscape of the Western peninsula on which he relies to elaborate about the "Prophet Muḥammad ". Where the traditional account says that there is none biblical monotheists around him whereas it is demented by the very Quranic text. Because it is very improbable that the public who heard it, had never heard of this. They would have comprehended nothing of what he was talking about.
    We do know that there is no real trace or not enough which could attest of the very good knowledge of the biblical world  exposed in the Quran, in the the lunar and barren landscape of the Western peninsula. There is in fact nothing. It is logic as there was no "Mecca" before Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1879 - April 06, 2018, 02:12 PM

    Sinai is a great believer. .................

    i don't think he is believer  but guys like him play  the game for  bread/butter and their job ...  that whole department  is funded by  middle east    kings  ...  So objective analysis of history  of   Islam  goes out of the window.. well  drop a line   at his podcast link  message box...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1880 - April 06, 2018, 02:34 PM

    What I call a "great believer" is a scholar who believe in the historical (and non surnatural) part of the traditional account whereas it is demented by archaeological, epigraphical, and scriptural sources which does not validate its historical affirmations (the great and rich city of Mecca before Islam where the "Prophet Muḥammad " lived in this great city, etc.)
    The belief in this traditional account, as "historical", is the first step to the possibility of being "Muslim". If you do not believe in it as historical facts, you cannot be "Muslim".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1881 - April 06, 2018, 02:54 PM

    What I call a "great believer" is a scholar who believe in the historical (and non surnatural) part of the traditional account whereas it is demented by archaeological, epigraphical, and scriptural sources which does not validate its historical affirmations (the great and rich city of Mecca before Islam where the "Prophet Muḥammad " lived in this great city, etc.)
    The belief in this traditional account, as "historical", is the first step to the possibility of being "Muslim". If you do not believe in it as historical facts, you cannot be "Muslim".

    i  agree with most  of what you say but I question that assumption of yours dear Altara...  

    Islam  is a faith of few  words  and they are,    "There is no  god  but  god".   And  any faith head in god  from any religion  could  in principle    be  a Muslim  if he/she believes in "no  god  but  god"  ..  rest of Islam is silly rituals and children stories..  

    And  for that  "no  god  but  god" belief. or to inquire that  (NOT ENFORCE THAT) belief, you can follow any culture any religion and practice any silly personal  rituals...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1882 - April 06, 2018, 04:35 PM

    Hi again Yeezevee,

    I have only listened to the fourth podcast and It was a okay introduction to the subject matter.

    Altara,

    I get the feeling that anyone who does not hold your view of these matters is not a historian and a real scholar. Sinai actually acknowledges that the traditional Arabic source have a theological or salvation-historical agenda. One does not become a Muslim if one believes in some accepts some parts of the sira. I believe Sinai addresses some of this the first podcast.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1883 - April 06, 2018, 08:09 PM

    Hi again Yeezevee,

    I have only listened to the fourth podcast and It was a okay introduction to the subject matter.

     Not just those blogs, I would consider much of the published history of Islam since 1950  from the academic  departments as only introductory exploration of the subject dear Mahgraye.,  Most of them do not want to question traditional Islamic history ., there are  few exceptions such as late  dr patricia crone  
    Quote
    Altara,

    I get the feeling that anyone who does not hold your view of these matters is not a historian and a real scholar. Sinai actually acknowledges that the traditional Arabic source have a theological or salvation-historical agenda. One does not become a Muslim if one believes in some accepts some parts of the sira. I believe Sinai addresses some of this the first podcast.

     
    No  i would disagree with it .,   What all  Altara,  asking for is Mecca  of/ in Quran and Mecca of hadith..  

    anyways, i would like to stress one more point on this  
    i  agree with most  of what you say but I question that assumption of yours dear Altara...  

    Islam  is a faith of few  words  and they are,    "There is no  god  but  god".   And  any faith head in god  from any religion  could  in principle    be  a Muslim  if he/she believes in "no  god  but  god" hypothesis ..  rest of Islam is silly rituals and children stories..

      And  for that  "no  god  but  god" belief. or to inquire that  (NOT ENFORCE THAT) belief, you can follow any culture any religion and practice any silly personal  rituals...

      ....   monotheism  is NOT monopoly  of  Islam...  there are plenty  of online resources on that

    Quote
    http://www.humanreligions.info/monotheism.html  

    Monotheism is a religion or belief system that involves just one God. Different religions have different numbers and types of gods. Those with no Gods such as Buddhism and Taoism are atheist religions, and Humanism is an atheist philosophy. Those with many Gods are polytheist, including Hinduism, ancient Roman Religions, Wicca, most types of Paganism and old Semite religions. The most famous monotheistic religions are Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Sikhism.

    Judaism, Christianity, Islam are called the "Abrahamic religions" because they share the same set of Hebrew stories featuring Abraham, who may have lived in around the 19th century BCE, although some scholars today question his status as a historical figure1. The Bible and the Qur'an contain accounts of Abraham that are "somewhat different"1 and there is no archaeological or genetic evidence that any peoples in the Middle East are descended from such a father-figure. David Leeming in "Jealous Gods & Chosen People: The Mythology of the Middle East" calls him a "mythical hero and father"2.

    Most monotheistic religions have a god that has certain common characteristics, and it is this type of religion and this type of god that this website is largely about. The typical monotheistic god is Omnipotent (infinitely powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), the supreme creator and First Cause of all existence, benevolent (perfectly and purely good-natured) and personal (it cares about, and communicates with, individual people). More about the assumed character-traits of the monotheistic god: "The Assumptions about God and Creation, of Both Theists and Atheists" by Vexen Crabtree (2014)
    Monotheism is Ancient

    Monotheism is an ancient idea, and it appears in various religions and cultures for thousands of years before the emergence of modern-day monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The idea was codified most clearly in ancient Greece amongst the pagan sages, but long before then it had already appeared in Egypt, 3400 years ago and perhaps as long as 4000 years ago.

        “Monotheism probably owes its origins to ancient Egypt. From 1379BC to 1362BC, during the time that the Israelites lived there, the country was ruled by Amenhotep IV. He substituted a universal and virtually exclusive supreme god, Aten, for the traditional polytheistic pantheon [...]. So convinced was Amenhotep of the existence of this supreme deity that he changed his name to Akhenaten, meaning literally, "raising the high name of Aten".

        No icon of this super-deity was allowed but, in Akhenaten's imagination, the god was symbolized by the disc of the sun, first winged and with outstretched hands in imagery made famous by various Hollywood movies, and then more stylized with the cobra symbol of the goddess Wadjet. [...] The god Aten and the notion of the pharaoh returning to his creator, the Sun, was in use in at least 2000 BC.”

        Robert Schroëder (2007)3

        “Five hundred years before Christ, Xenophanes had already written: 'There is one God, always still and at rest, who moves all things with the thoughts of his mind.' The legendary Egyptian sage Hermes Trismegistus is credited with teaching: 'Do you think there are many Gods? That's absurd - God is one.' [...] The Pagan sage Maximus of Tyre declared: 'The one doctrine upon which all the world is united is that one God is king of all and father.'”

        "The Jesus Mysteries"
        Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy (1999) [Book Review]4

    Pythagorus, the famous mathematician and leader of a pagan religion, preached single-god pantheism as part of a mystery religion. Jewish monotheism was not present at the inception of Judaism - "early Jewish texts indicate that 'the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob' was seen as the most powerful among the many gods and goddesses [...] but by about 700 BCE, belief in the existence of only one God (monotheism) had become common in Judaism"5. Christianity started out diverse, with a various number of gods, but from the 4th century the idea of the Trinity was made prominent. The confusion and battles between polytheistic Christians and Trinitarian ones led to an opening into which a new religion quickly spread. This new religion was clear, unambiguous and stern about how many Gods there were: exactly one. Islam converted nearly half the Roman Empire, and the Qur'an specifically condemns the Trinity as non-monotheistic.


    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1884 - April 06, 2018, 08:20 PM

    good  one to read ....  Theory  vs experiments .. The Rules for Hypothesis... 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1885 - April 06, 2018, 08:59 PM



    Altara,

    I get the feeling that anyone who does not hold your view of these matters is not a historian and a real scholar. Sinai actually acknowledges that the traditional Arabic source have a theological or salvation-historical agenda. One does not become a Muslim if one believes in some accepts some parts of the sira. I believe Sinai addresses some of this the first podcast.


    It is not what I say. Reread me. I do not care what "Muslims" believe. I care on what scholars build theirs studies. I remark that they build them on sources (the traditional account) whose the historical affirmations (the great and rich city of Mecca before Islam, departure of the conquest from "Mecca" where the so called "Prophet Muhammad" has lived in the middle of thousand of people who heard him, whereas they are "polytheist"  and none of them have ever heard of the Biblical God ) are NOT validated by epigraphical, archaeological and scriptural sources in the barren and lunar place of the Western peninsula. The scholars know that perfectly well. But they continue to build on that. It means that they BELIEVE  in this story even if they know that this affirmation has no scientific grounds. They are great believers in this story  not "scholars". They are, at best, semi "Muslims".
    Sinai (Anthony, Shoemaker, etc)  is NOT an historian, he is graduated from "Islamic studies".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1886 - April 06, 2018, 09:35 PM

    .................. They are great believers in this story  not "scholars". They are, at best, semi "Muslims".
    Sinai (Anthony, Shoemaker, etc)  is NOT an historian, he is graduated from "Islamic studies".


     Cheesy Cheesy

    hello   Altara  please  add more names to  that three names. list of  scholars  in Academic departments that explore Islam  and early  Islamic history WHO HAVE SIMILAR  VIEWS AND STYLES OF  Sinai, Anthony, Shoemaker.......

    I  would  really appreciate the list of  names 

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1887 - April 06, 2018, 10:15 PM

    99%
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1888 - April 07, 2018, 03:36 AM

    99%

    well  then it is mafia   and    people like  you & me  lost the game before the game started., 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1889 - April 07, 2018, 07:07 AM

    Ask people in this thread, if they believe to the traditional account : the great rich and famous city of "Mecca" before Islam, in the lunar barren landscape of the Western peninsula, departure of the conquest,  where the so called "Prophet Muhammad" has lived in the middle of thousand of people who heard him, whereas they are "polytheist"  and none of them have ever heard of the Biblical God. And then ask them if they have validation (archaeological, epigraphical, and scriptural ) of this 'historical affirmation'. They will respond to the first : Yes we believe. They won't respond (or not clearly...) to the second question. Why ? Because they have not. But they believe. They are great believers. Like Muslims, they believe to what they were told. It's printed in their mind. It is not a plot ! they'll say like A. Gorke (graduated in "Islamic Studies" as well...) a super great believer... in one of his paper... (who's wrote about a "plot" here ? not me...)
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