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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2670 - July 30, 2018, 08:35 PM

    I am not sure. Reading some recent scholarship, I can see the Christian influence on the Quran, and that the Quran originated in a Christian milieu. But would I go so far as to claim that the Quran affirms the Trinity and the Resurrection? I do not know. What about the numerous anti-Trinitarian polemics in the Quran? Are these verse also misunderstood? What do you think? Does the Quran affirm the Trinity and the Resurrection?

    Tell me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you lean towards this hypothesis? Every time I ask you this question you respond by asking what I think of the matter.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2671 - July 30, 2018, 08:40 PM

    The Nabatean realm stretched further than the roman Arabia Petraea. Madain Saleh was not part of it, neither was Tayma.


    The Romans were in  Madain Saleh in the 4 or 5th c. There is inscription of the garrison.


    Quote
    Where did the 6th C Saracen raiders come from?
     Do we have any idea if they were ethnically related to the Nabateans? For this Arba invasion to have succeeded, big numbers were needed. Where could these people have come from?


    1/Do your homework dear Mundi, and you will understand.
    2/idem
    3/Again.
    4/Again, until you find.

    Quote
    Logical would be that soon after the first 7th C Mohammed raids, young men from the border cities (Petra, Aila) were ready to join their relatives and benefit from the spoils..


    Mohammed who has written down the Quran?

    Quote
    it could explain this rapid emergence.


    Homework.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2672 - July 30, 2018, 08:42 PM

    I am not sure. Reading some recent scholarship, I can see the Christians influence on the Quran. But would I go so far as to claim that the Quran affirms the Trinity and the death and Resurrection of Jesus? I do not know. I am yet to see arguments for that. What do you think? Does the Quran affirm the Trinity and the Resurrection?


    Are you Muslim, dear Mahgraye?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2673 - July 30, 2018, 08:45 PM

    I updated my comment, dear Altara.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2674 - July 30, 2018, 08:49 PM

    Quote
    Are you Muslim, dear Mahgraye?


    Why do you ask? That question came out of left field, ha ha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2675 - July 30, 2018, 09:23 PM

    Wait! Do you think Christian monks wrote the Quran? Parts of it, maybe? Dye argued that Q 19 was written by a Christian monk?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2676 - July 30, 2018, 10:25 PM

    Quote
    Tell me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you lean towards this hypothesis? Every time I ask you this question you respond by asking what I think of the matter.


    I lean toward History. I understand why Luxenberg say that ; same as Luling. Dye is on the same path, Gallez elsewhere; Cuypers says nothing, idem Reynolds. I think they have ideas, but they do not say it. The last Reynolds (in French) is interesting, and because he uses French to say it, as he knows very well that Anthony, Shaddel et al. do not read it (Hahaha!)
     I understand why Luxenberg say that, but Dye will respond that the Quran is a layered text, so it is normal because many hands have written in it. Cuypers says no, not so many with his Semitic rhetoric, then what? Shoemaker will say eschatological text, he will copy Casanova in his next book that Zeca has posted the announce.
    Have I a response? Yes. But It cannot be the place to say it, we cannot say this kind of thing in a forum. Just because we need 300 pages to explain why.
    You know where I stand; I'm the only scholar in the field to say that Muhammad has never existed, and as Mecca, Medina, Zem Zem Kaba (as places described by the narrative...) From this point and all what I said here, you can understand that what I will say is totally new for some very important parts which articulates logically what happened. I found this new things only because I've set aside the existence of a "prophet" then the rest  ; hence no cites (no sources), etc.
     There is no Mecca, Medina, Zem Zem Kaba. No caliph Utman, Ali, muawiya, they were not caliph, but chiefs and leaders, nor Companions of anything of a void prophet in a city to which there is no allusion during 60 years. Reflect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2677 - July 30, 2018, 10:26 PM

    Why do you ask? That question came out of left field, ha ha.


    Mahgraye. (yawn)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2678 - July 30, 2018, 10:27 PM

    Wait! Do you think Christian monks wrote the Quran? Parts of it, maybe? Dye argued that Q 19 was written by a Christian monk?


    Not all Q 19 says Dye.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2679 - July 30, 2018, 10:55 PM

    I see. Somewhat unclear regarding the specifics, but that is because you abstain from elaborating on this forum. You obviously understand were each scholar (those you named) comes from. Dye, as you noted, believes the Quran has multiple layers, the earlier of which are Christian. He finds the Christian presence in Quran to peculiar considering the lack of Christianity in Western Arabia. I do not know much about Cuypers. Does Gallez reject the Quran being a Christian text? The Nazoreans having written the Quran and all that.

    Quote
    Anthony, Shaddel et al. do not read it (Hahaha!)


    Ha ha ha ha. This was funny.

    I'm the only scholar in the field to say that Muhammad has never existed, and as Mecca, Medina, Zem Zem Kaba (as places described by the narrative...) 

    Not to nitpick, but technically, you are not the only scholar who does not believe Muhammad existed: Wansbrough, Nevo, Koren, Luxenberg, Ohlig, Popp, Dequin, Thomas, Gross, Kropp, Ibn Warraq, Kalisch, Schmidt, Mommsen, Plato, Kerr, etc.

    Quote
    Mahgraye. (yawn)


    Ha Ha Ha. I see know.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2680 - July 30, 2018, 11:39 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    do your homework


    The idea is that we share info. I think 6C Arabia/Saracens is a period that is skipped in a lot of works. If you know it all, why dont you give a quick summary? I obviously have it wrong, I gladly learn from what you know.

    Gibson says Madain Saleh was not a living city, it has always been a necropolis or holy cite. The population must have lived elsewhere.

    Quran:

    Someone has written this text. if we look at the process of how a book of that length gets fixed in a written form it is never from dictation of the mind of a single man. Some will say but that is what happened for the Illiad, Homeros composed it orally, tradition kept it intact for centuries, and then it was committed to paper. I dont believe it, it is only tenable because there is no proof and again, absence of evidence is an opportunity  to prove whatever one wants.

    Mohammed existed or not is not really relevant for the Quran. But probably there was a leading figure for the Arabs, and someone decided they needed a book. Who early 7th C could produce a manuscript of that lenght? Who had the scribes to do it. What was the environment of the scribe?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2681 - July 31, 2018, 12:48 AM


    I'm the only scholar in the field to say that Muhammad has never existed, and as Mecca, Medina, Zem Zem Kaba (as places described by the narrative...)


    Koren/Nevo did and that is the assumption of the Inarah group too.

    By the way, you never mention them. Is it because you have not read them (would be surprising or maybe I missed it) or because you have issues with their assumptions ? What is your take on those people ?



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2682 - July 31, 2018, 01:00 AM

    Marc S - Thanks for reminding. Will add them to my list.

    Inarah are an interesting group. A lot Christians. But no scholarly group are as radical as they are. Very fanciful theories, I must say.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2683 - July 31, 2018, 01:06 AM

    Quran:

    Someone has written this text. if we look at the process of how a book of that length gets fixed in a written form it is never from dictation of the mind of a single man. Who early 7th C could produce a manuscript of that lenght? Who had the scribes to do it. What was the environment of the scribe?



    The Quran is a patchwork of texts from different faiths (jews, christian apocrypha, arian christian, manichean, arab legends, potentially zoroastrian) and that can be seen in the text.

    Shias say a huge chunk of the Quran is missing. Maybe they are right. Maybe, in fact, there were writings from different faiths and a group of people put their hands on them and strutured them into a single book but they were not able to get all the texts and/or they got rid of some.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2684 - July 31, 2018, 01:10 AM

    Marc S - Thanks for reminding. Will add them to my list.

    Inarah are an interesting group. A lot Christians. But no scholarly group are as radical as they are. Very fanciful theories, I must say.


    What I like with Inara, or I should say Popp, is their focus to look at numismatics and think out of the box. They raise interesting questions (for example on Ibn al Zubayr) and I think we can learn a lot of from that field of science.

    Does someone has a link to SYLLOGE OF ISLAMIC COINS IN THE ASHMOLEAN by Album/Goodwin ?  That is a more recent look at islam coins that updates Walker work on this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2685 - July 31, 2018, 07:42 AM

    I see. Somewhat unclear regarding the specifics, but that is because you abstain from elaborating on this forum. You obviously understand were each scholar (those you named) comes from. Dye, as you noted, believes the Quran has multiple layers, the earlier of which are Christian. He finds the Christian presence in Quran to peculiar considering the lack of Christianity in Western Arabia. I do not know much about Cuypers. Does Gallez reject the Quran being a Christian text? The Nazoreans having written the Quran and all that.


    1/...
    2/ They come from?
    3/ More or less.  Regarding its presence in the Quran as there's no  presence of Christianity in Western Arabia detected is an indication.
    4/Read Cuypers in academia there's some English stuff
    5/Gallez English site : http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/

    Ha ha ha ha. This was funny.

    I'm the only scholar in the field to say that Muhammad has never existed, and as Mecca, Medina, Zem Zem Kaba (as places described by the narrative...) 
    Quote
    Not to nitpick, but technically, you are not the only scholar who does not believe Muhammad existed: Wansbrough, Nevo, Koren, Luxenberg, Ohlig, Popp, Dequin, Thomas, Gross, Kropp, Ibn Warraq, Kalisch, Schmidt, Mommsen, Plato, Kerr, etc.


    Nope. I never read from this scholars declarations which clearly indicate that they envisage their studies in setting aside the existence of the "prophet" supposed to have produced the Quran.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2686 - July 31, 2018, 07:55 AM

    Altara,

    The idea is that we share info.


    Not for me. I remark that I often make commentaries to what you say here but it serves none as you still stuck to your things whereas they are inexact, because you does not work the stuff.



    Quote
    I think 6C Arabia/Saracens is a period that is skipped in a lot of works. If you know it all, why dont you give a quick summary? I obviously have it wrong, I gladly learn from what you know.


    Because it is your work to get the basics in mind : all is in the internet.

    Quote
    Gibson says Madain Saleh was not a living city, it has always been a necropolis or holy cite. The population must have lived elsewhere.


    Gibson is not an historian (yawn).

    Quote
    Quran:

    Someone has written this text. if we look at the process of how a book of that length gets fixed in a written form it is never from dictation of the mind of a single man. Some will say but that is what happened for the Iliad, Homeros composed it orally, tradition kept it intact for centuries, and then it was committed to paper. I dont believe it, it is only tenable because there is no proof and again, absence of evidence is an opportunity  to prove whatever one wants.


    1/Yes.
    2/Yes
    3/ I do not think that Iliad was composed orally. Scholars have no (scientific) evidence of that.


    Quote
    Mohammed existed or not is not really relevant for the Quran. But probably there was a leading figure for the Arabs, and someone decided they needed a book. Who early 7th C could produce a manuscript of that lenght? Who had the scribes to do it. What was the environment of the scribe?


    1/ It totally is. You do not get it. (Yet).
    2/Conjectures.
    3/ Not Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem-Zem : hence no "prophet" or warmonger.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2687 - July 31, 2018, 08:05 AM

    Altara,

    The idea is that we share info.


    https://www.academia.edu/37148444/Early_Islam_in_British_Higher_Education
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2688 - July 31, 2018, 08:44 AM

    Koren/Nevo did and that is the assumption of the Inarah group too.

    By the way, you never mention them. Is it because you have not read them (would be surprising or maybe I missed it) or because you have issues with their assumptions ? What is your take on those people ?


     I do not mention them it's because there is many scholars, I address scholar by scholar,  when they do valuable stuff ; Luxenberg, Kerr, Gallez are in Inarah. Volker Popp and all the others do not publish in English, and I do not read German. And I do not think that I miss something.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2689 - July 31, 2018, 10:48 AM

    An important paper (Early Islam in British Higher Education) of Philip Wood  who rises many questions about the teaching of Early Islam, related somehow to the paper in French about Crone I was talking about some weeks ago :

    Quote
    "However, I recognise that my sympathy for this approach [sceptic] has much to do with my own training as a historian of late antiquity, especially in the Syriac world, and in my own interest in comparative history. Many scholars studying or teaching the seventh century in Arabia have degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies or Arabic and Persian language. If one begins in AD 600, or prioritises texts in Arabic over texts in Greek and Syriac, one’s first instinct may not be to situate the world of the Qur’an against interlocutors writing in the late sixth century (cf. Hodgson 1977, 41)."


    All is said.  A teacher of Arabic (Anthony et al.) (or Arabic as a mother tongue Shaddel, etc) cannot be called "historian" because he is not, whereas they present themselves as ones. They are not trained as "historian", but teaching Arabic and civilization and nothing else.

    Quote
    "The current state of scholarship essentially requires agnosticism about the relevance of the traditional sources of the narrative that links Muhammad and the Qur’an.


    This is not possible for someone who states : I'm a "Muslim". He is naturally  a believer of  the traditional sources of the narrative that links Muhammad and the Qur’an. It is then impossible to this guy to teach, he will teach Islam, not history.
    And this is not possible for Anthony et al. because they believe in the narrative, as they are not trained as historians but as teaching Arabic. They did not realize they were framed because scholars trusted the narrative 300,200,100 years ago. But now it is not possible any more to trust it. But they continue to believe ; I see here none difference between a Anthony, a Gorke, a Shaddel et al. and a mere Muslim guy.

    Quote
    "But this poses a major problem for teaching: students will want to know what the Qur’an ‘means’, but the uncertainties of the text make it a poor starting point. As Muhammad Arkoun (1994, 38) observed, it is almost impossible to describe the Qur’an without engaging in interpretation. "


    I'm not agree with Arkoun statement. It was a statement of a Muslim.
    The diagnostic of Wood is good, he is perfectly right : "But this poses a major problem" Yes. A must read paper.
    https://www.academia.edu/37148444/Early_Islam_in_British_Higher_Education
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2690 - July 31, 2018, 11:50 AM

    Which scholar do you think is closer to the historical truth? Gallez or Luxenberg or Dye? The later two have more in common. I find Gallez's argument that the clause wa al-nasara are all interpolation to be convincing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2691 - July 31, 2018, 11:55 AM

    As someone who is familiar with Anthony, Görke, and Shaddel (especially Görke), I can claim the comparing him to a Muslim is unfair. Especially so to a scholar like Görke, who is one of the leading experts of Hadith and Sira. He and his colleagues apply the standards of Western critical scholarship to Hadith, as can be seen in their respective works. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2692 - July 31, 2018, 12:48 PM

    As someone who is familiar with Anthony, Görke, and Shaddel (especially Görke), I can claim the comparing him to a Muslim is unfair. Especially so to a scholar like Görke, who is one of the leading experts of Hadith and Sira. He and his colleagues apply the standards of Western critical scholarship to Hadith, as can be seen in their respective works. 


    You did not understand what Wood and I said. Reread us.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2693 - July 31, 2018, 12:57 PM

    Which scholar do you think is closer to the historical truth? Gallez or Luxenberg or Dye? The later two have more in common. I find Gallez's argument that the clause wa al-nasara are all interpolation to be convincing.


    Gallez has a point in its thesis very interesting. You have to find it yourself for accept it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2694 - July 31, 2018, 01:46 PM

    I do not mention them it's because there is many scholars, I address scholar by scholar,  when they do valuable stuff ; Luxenberg, Kerr, Gallez are in Inarah. Volker Popp and all the others do not publish in English, and I do not read German. And I do not think that I miss something.


    Yes Gallez attend Inarah symposium but it is quite funny because he doesn't really share their views ands he criticized Puin/Popp when they released Hidden Origins of islam ; he also disagree with Luxemberg on the meaning of Muhammad as a synonym of Jesus.

    Some of Inarah books have been translated in English (2 out of 8 )

    https://www.amazon.fr/Hidden-Origins-Islam-Research-History/dp/1591026342
    https://www.amazon.com/Early-Islam-Critical-Reconstruction-Contemporary/dp/161614825X
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2695 - July 31, 2018, 02:31 PM

    Gallez has a point in its thesis very interesting. You have to find it yourself for accepted it.


    Gallez relies heavily on Crone.

    He anyway used a lot of the islamic tradition to write his  book and believed in Muhammad being a real guy.             
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2696 - July 31, 2018, 02:48 PM

    Yes Gallez attend Inarah symposium but it is quite funny because he doesn't really share their views ands he criticized Puin/Popp when they released Hidden Origins of islam ; he also disagree with Luxemberg on the meaning of Muhammad as a synonym of Jesus.

    Some of Inarah books have been translated in English (2 out of 8 )

    https://www.amazon.fr/Hidden-Origins-Islam-Research-History/dp/1591026342
    https://www.amazon.com/Early-Islam-Critical-Reconstruction-Contemporary/dp/161614825X


    1/ Haha! Does not surprise me.
    2/ He's perfectly right on this (my view of course) : as I said in the Dome inscription Jesus is qualified as a "muhammad' used as an adjective. All the prophets are therefore some "muhammad-S"
    3/Ok. I miss nothing in the 2013.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2697 - July 31, 2018, 02:59 PM

    Gallez relies heavily on Crone.

    He anyway used a lot of the islamic tradition to write his  book and believed in Muhammad being a real guy.             


    1/ I know.
    2/ I disagree. Yes, that it one of his error (same as Crone).  But there is a point where he is right. I won't tell it here (of course...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2698 - July 31, 2018, 03:11 PM

    Hilali, Asma
    The Sanaa Palimpsest.
    The transmission of the Qur’an
    in the first centuries AH.
    Oxford University Press,
    2017, 271 p.

    Cellard review : in French (yawn)

    https://college-de-france.academia.edu/EleonoreCellard/Book-Reviews
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2699 - July 31, 2018, 03:19 PM


    2/ But there is a point where he is right. I won't tell it here (of course...)



    I see 2 :

    - islam is not born in the hijaz but in Syria,
    - Mecca as we know today is a later addition and has nothing to do with the origins of islam
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