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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1500922 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2700 - July 31, 2018, 03:31 PM

    Yes. Gallez offered what I would describe as one of the most fierce criticisms of Inarah. Convincing. My essay on this topic has incorporated Gallez's valuable criticisms.

    But why can you not tell us what Gallez found, dear Altara? Could you tell me in private?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2701 - July 31, 2018, 03:34 PM

    Contra Luxenberg et al., Gallez thinks that the name Muḥammad comes from the surname īsh ḥamudōt of the prophet Daniel.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2702 - July 31, 2018, 03:34 PM

    This is so frustrating. I am not sure which scholar I should follow (not blindly, of course).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2703 - July 31, 2018, 04:28 PM


    2/ He's perfectly right on this (my view of course) : as I said in the Dome inscription Jesus is qualified as a "muhammad' used as an adjective. All the prophets are therefore some "muhammad-S"


    Luxemberg thinks muhammad relates to Jesus but not Gallez who says Muhammad here is used as a name. Your reply is confusing if by "He" you mean Gallez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2704 - July 31, 2018, 04:29 PM

    This has always made me smile in the islamic traditon, and the replies of islamic scholars even more.

    https://www.academia.edu/37153527/Was_Mohammed_s_supposed_uncle_based_on_biblical_Omri_Part_Two_Mohammed_born_after_his_father_s_death
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2705 - July 31, 2018, 04:34 PM

    Marc S - Altara here is referring to Luxenberg. He agrees with that Muhammad is Jesus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2706 - July 31, 2018, 04:52 PM

    Contra Luxenberg et al., Gallez thinks that the name Muḥammad comes from the surname īsh ḥamudōt of the prophet Daniel.

    Gallez and Dye (and me...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2707 - July 31, 2018, 04:53 PM

    This is so frustrating. I am not sure which scholar I should follow (not blindly, of course).


    Yourself.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2708 - July 31, 2018, 04:55 PM

    Marc S - Altara here is referring to Luxenberg. He agrees with that Muhammad is Jesus.


    Nope. Jesus is qualified as a "muhammad' used as an adjective. All the prophets are therefore some "muhammad-S"

    (grammar) A word that modifies a noun.

    The noun is Jesus in our case.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2709 - July 31, 2018, 04:56 PM

    Quote
    Gallez and Dye (and me...).


    Wait! So you and Dye agree with Gallez that the name Muḥammad comes from the surname īsh ḥamudōt?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2710 - July 31, 2018, 04:59 PM

    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2711 - July 31, 2018, 05:29 PM

    Very interesting. This would be against Luxenberg's understanding of the word. How would you respond to the objection that the argument is philologically too fragile
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2712 - July 31, 2018, 06:24 PM

    "that the argument is philologically too fragile"

    In what way?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2713 - July 31, 2018, 06:30 PM

    Not sure. That is what Amir-Moezzi wrote.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2714 - July 31, 2018, 06:31 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy  it is a funny discussion between you two..

    Quote

    good stuff.. good posts..

    Quote
    Wait! So you and Dye agree with Gallez that the name Muḥammad comes from the surname īsh ḥamudōt?

    Yes.


      well on these words  of Mahgraye
    Quote
    the name Muḥammad comes from the surname īsh ḥamudōt?.....

     let me add this...

    Rascals  .....Juicy juicy  "Ibns..." changed the faith ..changed the name  .. And here pops the Muhammad ..The prophet of Islam with book as words of allah/god..

    And... and they changed whole history of middle east  and  as well as the religious history of human race on whole planet  earth.......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2715 - July 31, 2018, 06:32 PM

    Quote
    good stuff.. good posts..


    Ha ha ha ha. Welcome back, dear Yeezevee.

    Still not sure what you mean by rascals, tho? Sound very negative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2716 - July 31, 2018, 07:00 PM

    Back to business!

    I read Wood's article and it was quite good. But I still dont know more about the arabs 6th C en the non relationship with the Saracen raids mentioned in that period.

    I guess Altara, you still are keeping your knowledge a secret?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2717 - July 31, 2018, 07:06 PM

    Not sure. That is what Amir-Moezzi wrote.


    Where?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2718 - July 31, 2018, 07:10 PM

    Back to business!

    I read Wood's article and it was quite good. But I still dont know more about the arabs 6th C en the non relationship with the Saracen raids mentioned in that period.

    I guess Altara, you still are keeping your knowledge a secret?


    Yes. There are many paper on academia about the arabs 6th C  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2719 - July 31, 2018, 07:13 PM

    Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi, “Muḥammad the Paraclete and ʿAlī the Messiah: New Remarks on the Origins of Islam and of Shiʿite Imamology”, Der Islam 2018; 95 (1): 50, n. 58:

    Quote
    [T]he hypothesis according to which the name Muḥammad comes from the surname īsh ḥamudōt of the prophet Daniel is seductive but too speculative because it is philologically too fragile.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2720 - July 31, 2018, 07:42 PM

     
    Quote
    seductive but too speculative


    It is not an argument. But, I have not the paper, so...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2721 - July 31, 2018, 07:43 PM

    That is the only thing he says. Anyways, here is the paper: https://goo.gl/eAa5nk
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2722 - July 31, 2018, 08:06 PM

    Thanks, I read it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2723 - July 31, 2018, 09:28 PM

    I just make some comments :
    Quote
    "Muḥammad’s first messages seem to announce the imminent end of the world (as is evident from many Quranic passages and several very early ḥadiths)"

    Disagree.
    Evidence :
    Quote
    "so Muḥammad cannot but announce the coming of the Messiah as the
    Savior of the End of the world. On this last point, the Qurʾān remains curiously
    silent
    "

    Hahaha !
    Quote
    but according to a large number of ancient ḥadiths, Muḥammad actually
    announces the imminent coming of the Messiah and the latter is none other than
    Jesus.

     
    Does 100 years of external sources attests that? Nope... (I already set aside the Doctrina Jacobi about this topic)

    Quote
    At the same time, for some followers of the Prophet, ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib seems
    to have been the Second Jesus, Christ and Messiah of the apocalyptic times.


    Logical. As nobody knew an Arabic "prophet" because it has never existed, and the interpretation of the Quran as an eschatological text... they look at the NT... to try to understand...

    Quote
    The Quranic corpus insists heavily on the impending end of the world


    Yes. But does not announce it right now.

    Quote
    The examples taken from the Qurʾān can thus be multiplied on many other
    pages. Those passages, as well as the many similar data in the ḥadith corpus (on
    which I shall come back), have lead some scholars, from the 19th century to this
    day, to consider the Qurʾān, the milieu that saw it originate as well as the very
    first times of Islam as phenomena belonging to a certain time and space (in other
    words to a history and a geography) strongly steeped in apocalyptic beliefs.


    Shoemaker is the last (yawn)...

    Quote
    if Muḥammad had come to announce the end of the world, as an important part of the Qurʾān and Ḥadīth prove, why would he found a new religion?

    Hahaha !
    Therefore it is no apocalyptic... then, what's the point? Hahaha !

    Quote
    To which religious milieu(s) did he belong? What part did the great religions
    of the time such as Judaism, Christianity or Manicheism have in its formation
    and message? How should we understand the other, non-apocalyptic, parts
    of the two scriptural sources of Islam? What relations tied the first Muslims, the
    men of power and knowledge in particular, to their prophet? How much trust can
    be invested into the Islamic sources that are abundant and at the same time contradictory,full of improbabilities and often patently apologetic and/or ideological?


    Yes, good questions. Research is questions, nothing else.

    Quote
    Edouard-Marie Gallez whose voluminous work Le Messie et Son Prophète, constitutes a veritable mine of information and that despite ideological stands and
    methods that sometimes spark off reservations


    Yes. Gallez is great.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2724 - July 31, 2018, 09:36 PM

    Quote
    Yes. Gallez is great.

    Agreed! I just love Gallez. Have you met him?

    Quote
    Hahaha! Therefore it is no apocalyptic... then, what's the point? Hahaha !


    Probably the best response to Casanova's thesis, ha ha ha. Logical, too.

    Quote
    "so Muḥammad cannot but announce the coming of the Messiah as the
    Savior of the End of the world. On this last point, the Qurʾān remains curiously
    silent" Hahaha !


    Not sure I got this one. What is so funny?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2725 - July 31, 2018, 10:35 PM

    Quote
    "Muḥammad’s first messages seem to announce the imminent end of the world (as is evident from many Quranic passages and several very early ḥadiths)"


    I disagree.
    Why:

    "so Muḥammad cannot but announce the coming of the Messiah as the
    Savior of the End of the world.
    Quote
    On this last point, the Qurʾān remains curiously silent"


    Hahaha ! Never the Quran states this... Why?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2726 - July 31, 2018, 10:43 PM

    Ha ha ha ha. Welcome back, dear Yeezevee.

    Still not sure what you mean by rascals, tho? Sound very negative.

    well I am sure you know the meaning of the word "rascals"  but many of us do not know who actually they were and their addresses ..

    anyway thank you for welcoming to the forum .. the profiles  say.....

    Quote
    Mahgraye....... joined on  March 07, 2018, 05:47 PM..... total Post :235

    yeezevee...... joined on  December 02, 2007, 03:39 AM..... total Post : 24028


    and you are 11 years late in welcoming me dear Mahgraye

    So let us read this paper of Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi

    Muḥammad the Paraclete and ʿAlī the Messiah: New Remarks on the Origins of Islam and of Shiʿite Imamology
     
    that is published in 2018 and he is a very nice guy .. dedicated that publication to dr. To Patricia Crone

    and i am glad to read your posts...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2727 - July 31, 2018, 10:44 PM

    Ha ha. I did not mean in a condescending fashion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2728 - July 31, 2018, 10:47 PM

    Ha ha. I did not mean in a condescending fashion.

    no..  no.. i was thinking about myself and other colleagues who joined /contributed to this forum since it started  in  November of, 2007  ..  each one of us  could have done 3 or 4 Ph.Ds  on Islam  Cheesy Cheesy

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2729 - July 31, 2018, 10:49 PM

    Ha ha ha ha. You are too good.
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