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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2760 - August 01, 2018, 09:42 PM

    Quote
    The Abraham story certainly has OT roots, no?


    Yes.
    Quote
    Where does the bible say Abraham left Ismael and built a house?


    Where Jesus is mentioned in the OT?
    Ask Christians, the found many mentions.
    Ask Jews, they found no one. (yawn).

     The Bible say that there is a place of Abraham, right?  Jews says that they found it a build a Temple on it, right?
    Ok. Arabs are sons of Ishmael.  The son of Abraham,Ishmael,  in the Bible leaves to the desert, right? Arabs were identified as the descendants of Ishmael, by Jews and Christians right? Arabs believed them : We are the son of Ishmael!
    All of this in academia articles : do your homework.
    Quote
    Even the Islamic tradition doesnt say that.

    The narrative should be set aside, because it comes 150 years later...
    Quote
    Is this again a case of absence of evidence

    Nothing to see with that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2761 - August 01, 2018, 10:02 PM

    Waladan? The rams could not be read that way. Very weird. There is no waw in the verse. Please provide the source.


    the ba could be a ya
    Then : yalad. In hebrew : yeled : child.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2762 - August 01, 2018, 10:08 PM

    That is a possibility. The traditional reading makes sense.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2763 - August 01, 2018, 11:31 PM


    1/Where in the Quran Messiah Jesus is returning? No matter how much I look, I cannot find that. Sorry but (for me...) Gallez is wrong. There's nothing like that in the Quran. Of course if it has to be rewrite, why not?


    True but nothing says that those people had the Quran with them and that they were following what is written in surah 2. Writings on the arabs invading the Temple Mount and building a place of prayer are quite confusing.

    If we read Sebeos,  the jews are the ones who built the masjid and the arabs took it over and made it their own.

    Quote
    Now I shall speak about the plot of the Jewish rebels, who, finding support from the Hagarenes for a short
    time, planned to [re]build the temple of Solomon. Locating the place called the holy of holies, they
    constructed [the temple] with a pedestal, to serve as their place of prayer. But the Ishmaelites envied [the
    Jews], expelled them from the place, and named the same building their own place of prayer.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2764 - August 02, 2018, 01:26 AM

    Altara,

    See how easily one can have ambiguity in the text. After rereading I noticed it and changed the wording. The first version was stricktly taken not wrong but was in any case misunderstood. My edit is this:

    Quote
    In what location does the bible say Abraham left Ismael and built a house? Not in Jerusalem in any case.


    Emphasis is the location the bible mentions for the dwelling of Hagar and Ishmael. If I recall well, there is even confusion in the OT. Pharan is mentioned (Sinai) but also Mesopotamia I think (what is taken over in the Cronica, dd 741, mention of Mecca).  But nowhere does the OT say that Hagar and Ismael dwelled in Jerusalem.

    Marc S. is right. We know from several early Christian sources that the Hagar/Ishmael narrative was very much alive in 7th C. Probably also in early 7th C because we have attestation from even earlier that the Arabs were associated with Ishmael. So there is no logic in your association of 2:127 with the mosque on the Templemount.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2765 - August 02, 2018, 01:36 AM

    Concerning Baladan and Yaled:

    Yes, that was it. I can give you more background but you'll have to wait a few weeks (my book reference is not available at the moment/ is taking a long journey ).

    The scholar (Bonnet-Emyard) giving that explanation  (the faithful boy) is guided by the logic of the biblical story. We are so used to having weird constructs in the Quran and this jumping from hot to tot, that we are happy with the accepted Quran reading. It talks of a city but Abraham dropped off Sarah and Ishmael in the desert, builds a house, there was no city yet

    Do you guys agree that there is no pre-islamic use of balad as city in any semitic language? I really dont know. I only know (if I remember well) that Bonnet Emyard says so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2766 - August 02, 2018, 02:15 AM

    To my ears, balad has never meant city, but land. The land referenced here is thought to be Hijaz, which, at that time, was barren. Or at least something to that effect.

    Bonnet-Eymard. He was not the most serious of scholars. So, he read 2:116 as not talking about a land, but about a boy? On what basis does he argue that? Yelad form Hebrew meaning boy? Who is the boy in question?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2767 - August 02, 2018, 02:39 AM

    serious scholars:

    I think we should approach all scholars with an open mind. I doubt that there exist one that has the whole truth in his pen. The fun thing is to have a look at all contributions and extract what looks interesting?

    BE is from another era, no internet yet, a contemporary of Crone but without her academic network. His approach for reading the Quran is the Champollion way: decoding and throwing away the whole tradition.

    Baladan is translated as city in 2:126 not as land. In other verses it is.  Abraham asks God to make his boy (Ismael) a good boy...not far fetched...the story is about the relationship Abraham/Ismael/ and people coming from them. Much more than about fruit / a house/ a city.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2768 - August 02, 2018, 02:50 AM

    This reading intrigues me. Could be right. And yes, you are completely right. One should not be dismissive of scholars. His interpretation of the disconnected letters seems plausible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2769 - August 02, 2018, 06:42 AM

    True but nothing says that those people had the Quran with them and that they were following what is written in surah 2.


    Of course! It is what they do (building a place of prayer in the Temple Mount)  which could say it.  Because in the Quran, we can read 2,127. It was on the place of Abraham 2,125 : maqāmi ib'rāhīma muṣallan waʿahid'nā ilā ib'rāhīma wa-is'māʿīla. When you do something, there's a reason. You see people doing something religious in 637. Where does this idea come from? Just when they enter, texts are clear, it is the first thing remarkable they do. Why that? People always do something for a reason... even you.
    Quote
    Writings on the arabs invading the Temple Mount and building a place of prayer are quite confusing.


    What is not confusing is that they build  a place of prayer  in the Temple Mount.
    Quote
    If we read Sebeos,  the jews are the ones who built the masjid and the arabs took it over and made it their own.


    Other texts it is the Arabs, it seems... right?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2770 - August 02, 2018, 07:06 AM

    Altara,

    See how easily one can have ambiguity in the text. After rereading I noticed it and changed the wording. The first version was strictly taken not wrong but was in any case misunderstood. My edit is this:

    Emphasis is the location the bible mentions for the dwelling of Hagar and Ishmael. If I recall well, there is even confusion in the OT. Pharan is mentioned (Sinai) but also Mesopotamia I think (what is taken over in the Cronica, dd 741, mention of Mecca).  But nowhere does the OT say that Hagar and Ismael dwelled in Jerusalem.


    I said that the  the OT say that Hagar and Ismael dwelled in Jerusalem.?  You sure? Did you read me or?

    Quote
    Marc S. is right. We know from several early Christian sources that the Hagar/Ishmael narrative was very much alive in 7th C. Probably also in early 7th C because we have attestation from even earlier that the Arabs were associated with Ishmael. So there is no logic in your association of 2:127 with the mosque on the Templemount.


    We have attestation from even earlier that the Arabs were associated with Ishmael. Yes we know. And the Quran knows it as well :
    Arberry:
    And  when  his  Lord tested Abraham with  certain  words,  and he  fulfilled  them.  He   said, 'Behold, I make you a leader for the people.' Said he, 'And of my seed?' He said 'My covenant shall not reach the evildoers.'

    And when We appointed the House to be a place of visitation for the people, and a sanctuary, and: 'Take to yourselves Abraham's station for a place of prayer.' And We made covenant with Abraham and Ishmael: 'Purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that cleave to it, to those who bow and prostrate themselves.'

    And when Abraham, and Ishmael with him, raised up the foundations of the House: 'Our Lord, receive this from us; Thou art the All-hearing, the All-knowing.

    Quote
    So there is no logic in your association of 2:127 with the mosque on the Templemount.


    The logic is simple. Arabs in 637 do what they understand of what is in Q 2,127. They build (rebuild ?) a house in the place of Abraham : in Jerusalem. They did it because they are believing they are the sons of Ishmael, because this is the way Jews and Christians call them.
    Am I sure it is the reason? I'm not H.G Wells. I just note that they do what the Quran describes. That's all. And they do it because  they are believing they are the sons of Ishmael.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2771 - August 02, 2018, 07:20 AM

    To my ears, balad has never meant city, but land. The land referenced here is thought to be Hijaz, which, at that time, was barren. Or at least something to that effect.

    Bonnet-Eymard. He was not the most serious of scholars. So, he read 2:116 as not talking about a land, but about a boy? On what basis does he argue that? Yelad form Hebrew meaning boy? Who is the boy in question?


    "On what basis does he argue that?" Same as yours (yawn) : "To my ears, balad has never meant city"
    As in the rasm : the ba can be a ya : yalad = no vowels in Semitic language: yeled in hebrew = child.
    The child is Ishmael I think, as Ishmael is often emphasised since he is the father of the Arabs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2772 - August 02, 2018, 07:22 AM

    This reading intrigues me. Could be right. And yes, you are completely right. One should not be dismissive of scholars. His interpretation of the disconnected letters seems plausible.

    1/Yes. Plausible
    2/Yes. I only dismiss teacher of Arabic and civilization  and translator...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2773 - August 02, 2018, 09:54 AM

    Magrayye,

    Do you have Bonnet-Emyards reading in your possession? If not, I'll give you the details when my books resurface in a couple of weeks.

    BE has a lot of different extreme re-readings. Some probably false, others maybe correct.His contribution is that he starts from zero, that is his premise, the tradition does not exist when the Quran was written so he does not take it into account. I'll gladly share his knowledge  Smiley.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2774 - August 02, 2018, 11:15 AM

    Tell Mahgraye that Bonnet-Emyard is French and that it is on the Syllabus of Reynolds of last year. There is some video in YT.
    You read French dear Mundi? Then reread A.-L. de Prémare, les fondations...  many questions you poses are responded there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2775 - August 02, 2018, 12:04 PM

    Of course! It is what they do (building a place of prayer in the Temple Mount)  which could say it.  Because in the Quran, we can read 2,127. It was on the place of Abraham 2,125 : maqāmi ib'rāhīma muṣallan waʿahid'nā ilā ib'rāhīma wa-is'māʿīla.


    I don't believe the arabs who took over had quranic texts or the Quran so whatever happened on the Temple Mount had nothing to do with it.

    Quote
    Just when they enter, texts are clear, it is the first thing remarkable they do.


    No we don't know that. You read too much into ONE single text. You have different texts about this. The one you are refering to has its own issues (see below)


    Quote
    People always do something for a reason... even you.

    Sometimes I wonder  Wink


    Quote
    Other texts it is the Arabs, it seems... right?


    We have :

    - Sebeos : he implies jews did it in the first place before arabs chased them away and used it for themselves.
    - Arculf : he tells us arabs built the place but it doesn't really prove anything  ; if Sebeos account is correct, Arculf visiting Jerusalem after the arabs took the masjid over would just acknowledge them owning it rather than the fact they actually built it,
    - Anastasius of Sinai : he mentions egyptians clearing the area called Capitol ; we know Ismael mother was egyptian as per the OT so does it refer to arabs here or people from Egypt, I don't know and we don't know what was done after clearing that area and by whom,
    - John Moschus : he seems to imply that this is the first thing those arabs did when entering Jerusalem but it doesn't mean anything because it could be in fact the first important thing that struck the mind of the writer regarding the arrival of the arabs. I also have issue with the rest of the narrative because there seems to be a theology angle in it so the whole events described might be ahistorical or emphasized to highlight something,
    - the muslim tradition that tells us Umar had it built when he came to Jerusalem after Sophronius agreed to surrender the town to him.


    A careful review of all those texts should be done in order to understand what really happened.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2776 - August 02, 2018, 01:40 PM

    Quote
    I don't believe the arabs who took over had quranic texts or the Quran so whatever happened on the Temple Mount had nothing to do with it.


    I don't believe anything. I (just) try to understand what they do. That's all. As I think that the Quran is more ancient that it is said (since I do not "believe" to he narrative), I wonder if it building is related to Q 2,127. I think it's possible, as the Arabs, sons of Ishmael, build a house of prayer and prosternation like in the Quran, in the place where traditionally Abraham is said to have not sacrificed Isaac and where there is an destroyed Temple.
    There is no "whatever happened" there is (several) attestation of what do the Arabs, entering the city : they  a house of prayer and prosternation. You cannot deny the (several) external sources, that you cites...
    Quote
    - Sebeos : he implies jews did it in the first place before arabs chased them away and used it for themselves.


    Yes.
    Quote
    Arculf : he tells us arabs built the place but it doesn't really prove anything  ; if Sebeos account is correct, Arculf visiting Jerusalem after the arabs took the masjid over would just acknowledge them owning it rather than the fact they actually built it,


    Arculf is not 637.

    Quote
    Anastasius of Sinai : he mentions egyptians clearing the area called Capitol ; we know Ismael mother was egyptian as per the OT so does it refer to arabs here or people from Egypt, I don't know and we don't know what was done after clearing that area and by whom.


    Anastasius of Sinai says (I did not check the text, I trust you) in fact nothing about a build, but a clearing. Never Christians would have cleared the the Temple Mount, then it is the newcomers or Jews who made it.

    Quote
    John Moschus : he seems to imply that this is the first thing those arabs did when entering Jerusalem

     

    Yes.
    Quote
    but it doesn't mean anything because it could be in fact the first important thing that struck the mind of the writer regarding the arrival of the arabs.


    See a building by Arabs in 637 in the Temple Mount means anything? What happened? This guy is crazy? Why not.

    Quote
    it could be in fact the first important thing that struck the mind of the writer

    Therefore you do not deny that he says that : building by Arabs in 637 in the Temple Mount : end of story.

    Quote
    I also have issue with the rest of the narrative because there seems to be a theology angle in it

    Theology is always there.

    You forgot one which add to John Moschus  :

    Quote
    The same person (Theodore) also told us this story:

    The godless Saracens entered the Holy City of Christ our God, Jerusalem, with God’s permission, as punishment for our negligence, which is countless. Straightaway, hurriedly, they arrived at the place called Capitol. They took with them men, some by force, others voluntarily, in order to clean this place and build that accursed thing, reserved for their prayer, that they call a mosque (mizdgitha). Among these men was John, archdeacon of St Theodore the Martyr, because he was a marble mason by trade. He let himself be seduced by them for dishonest gain and he voluntarily went to work there. He was very good with his hands.

    When the very blessed St Sophronius, whom you know, heard about this, he sent messengers to him one Friday, made him come, and asked him – as a father and as the pastor of that rational flock which had been entrusted to him by God – not to profane his hands, but to shy away from such an abominable enterprise. He made him this assurance:

    “The Holy Resurrection will give you as much work as you could want, and twice the wages. Just don’t disobey my will. Don’t harm yourself: don’t get too involved in their downfall by working voluntarily on the construction of the place that Christ has cursed. Look: you’re opposing His order, when no-one is able to oppose Him. If you refuse to obey me, you may not work over there and simultaneously remain under the yoke where you have been placed: in fact, not even a layman who bears the name of Christian may go and work there.”

    And his companions the deacons asked the same of him. So, at that moment, he promised – with an oath guaranteed by the force of the venerable Cross – to no longer work out there from that moment on. But two days later he was found out there, working in secret.

    When the good pastor had been informed of this, his spirit was troubled by this man’s spiritual death; and, seized by the rage of Phineas, he promptly sent for him. As if with a keen-edged sword, he ran him through with the word of God and excommunicated him from the Holy Church of Christ our God. However, after having been excommunicated by the saint of God, he re-entered his church by force with the help of the Saracens.

    A few days later, he was working in a monastery, called the Monastery of the Recluses, on the Holy Mountain. He was up a ladder, a man’s height from the floor. He stumbled and plummeted to the ground. He dislocated his leg; [subsequently] his skin and flesh wasted away, and he was ill for a long time—the doctors’ art being no help to him. So he confessed his negligence, saying: “Truly, this accident only befell me because I disobeyed the pontiff. Behold this merciless wrath that has come upon me.”

    Concerning this, he asked one of his friends – a man who feared God; the one who told us this story – what he should do. So this [man] answered that he should go down to the saint’s tomb and light a lamp, from which he should anoint the wound and drink the rest. This he did, and he found some relief. He was able to walk with a stick. But once again he acted audaciously and forgot the favour he had received from God. He went up to the holy altar and placed a hand on the table, because he couldn’t stand up. Not long afterwards, his wound started to feel bad, and his leg was consumed up to the hip. He was beyond all help and perished, the wretch, in great distress.

    See therefore, brother, that you mustn’t disobey the word of a priest, which is a blessing, whichever rank he be, and especially when it’s such a great pontiff; for it’s not him who binds, but the word that Jesus Christ has spoken: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven [Matthew 16:19].” This is why, with all our vigilance and all our strength, we must rush to observe the priests’ word and order, so a heavy sentence may not befall us. Not for nothing do the venerable canons condemn men like him, for it’s not [other] men they despise, but the Holy Spirit.

    Georgian reproduced with French translation and commentary: Bernard Flusin, “L’esplanade du temple”, in Julian Raby and Jeremy Johns (eds.), Bayt al-Maqdis, vol. 1 (1991), pp. 17–31.

    Arabs 2, Jews 1.
    I hold that my theory is plausible as it is grounded by 2 sources and the Quran. That's all.
    Edit : I add, moreover, that it is a Gallez idea, not mine. Of course I'm not agree with him about the frame he places it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2777 - August 02, 2018, 03:11 PM

    Quote
    I don't believe anything. I (just) try to understand what they do.


    Sebeos tells us what they do. They don't need the Quran for this, the Torah is enough.


    Quote
    You forgot one which add to John Moschus  :


    No this is the text John Moschus report.

    The rest of the story looks like a christian apologetic text so the whole narrative could be grossly inflated just to land a point like Doctrina Jacobbi does and therefore cast a doubt on the events described from an historical point of view.


    Did you happen to be a member of a forum called Dialogue Abraham ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2778 - August 02, 2018, 03:59 PM

    Quote
    Sebeos tells us what they do. They don't need the Quran for this, the Torah is enough.

     

    Arabs read the Torah? Why not. In Arabic? In Hebrew? Why not. Then they wrote the Quran after 637? Why? Because they have the Torah, you said? Why not translate it then, if they spoke Hebrew like you said.
    Maybe Greek as well, or Syriac...
    And the Torah alludes to a building made by Ishmael, like in the Quran? Why not. Where exactly?
    Why they chase the Jews who have "rebuild" the Temple in some way, they are Jews, the Arabs of 637, since they want to do like the Jews? Why not.
    And when they become very polemical against the Jews, (since they wrote the Quran, after 637 right?)  they are what, always Jews?
    That is all the consequence of Sebeos discourse.
    Can you respond? (yawn).

    Quote
    No this is the text John Moschus report.


    My bad.

    Quote
    The rest of the story looks like a christian apologetic text so the whole narrative could be grossly inflated just to land a point like Doctrina Jacobbi does and therefore cast a doubt on the events described from an historical point of view.


    It is your subjective deduction. It is a building of a house of prayer,  that has nothing to see with 'apologetic', what is 'apologetic' in talking about that? Nothing. Not the portrait of  a  "prophet". Nothing to do. By the way, what is 'apologetic' in the DC? Afro Apologetic to who exactly? (yawn).

    Quote
    Did you happen to be a member of a forum called Dialogue Abraham ?


    Lulz. (yawn).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2779 - August 02, 2018, 04:36 PM

    Well............. I have a serious problem defining folks of 5th, 6th ,7th, century   who lived in Arabian peninsula as  ARABS...
    Quote
    Altara  says:   Arabs read the Torah? Why not. In Arabic? In Hebrew? Why not. ........................The Arabs  of 637..

    mundi says: .....more logical explanation that the Arabs ...
    the reason why Arabs  built a mosque

    Marc S says:  ......what is written in surah 2. Writings on the Arabs invading the Temple.......

    ......the jews are the ones who built the masjid and the Arabs took it over...


    I guess many historians don't care about that...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fyT2h4aiIM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWsFBqPry5s


    That rascal in that thawb garment is a Pakistani fooling other immigrants acting like Arab in those clothes.. Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2780 - August 02, 2018, 05:09 PM

    "Well............. I have a serious problem defining folks of 5th, 6th ,7th, century   who lived in Arabian peninsula as  ARABS..."

    Yet, https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/namarah.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2781 - August 02, 2018, 05:15 PM

    Quote
    Arabs read the Torah? Why not. In Arabic? In Hebrew? Why not.


    They don't need to read the Torah to know they are the sons of Abraham. Sebeos tells you what happened.

    And we know Arabs were practicing an Abraham monotheism before islam came on the scene.

    Quote
    Then they wrote the Quran after 637?

    I never said that. The real question is who wrote the Quran.

    Quote
    Why? Because they have the Torah, you said? Why not translate it then, if they spoke Hebrew like you said.

    I never said they spoke Hebrew. In the 12th century, they seemed to be speaking Hebrew but that era doesn't concern us here.


    Quote
    And the Torah alludes to a building made by Ishmael, like in the Quran? Why not. Where exactly?

    Good question. We should ask ourselves with whom did Abraham build a house and where in jewish writings.

    Quote
    Why they chase the Jews who have "rebuild" the Temple in some way, they are Jews, the Arabs of 637, since they want to do like the Jews? Why not.

    Sebeos tell you why though obviously not with enough details. The Sebeos text is also weird because it does mention a jewish prince who seems to be ruling.




    Quote
    It is a building of a house of prayer,  that has nothing to see with 'apologetic', what is 'apologetic' in talking about that?


    No the building is not the main item of the story that unfolds here. Read the text again.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2782 - August 02, 2018, 05:57 PM

    Quote
    Do you have Bonnet-Emyards reading in your possession? If not, I'll give you the details when my books resurface in a couple of weeks.

    BE has a lot of different extreme re-readings. Some probably false, others maybe correct.His contribution is that he starts from zero, that is his premise, the tradition does not exist when the Quran was written so he does not take it into account. I'll gladly share his knowledge  Smiley.


    Unfortunately, I do not have any of his writings in my possession. But I would be very glad if you could share some of his insights, those that make sense and also the radical ones. Radical is always interesting. His understanding of the disconnected letters alif, lām, mīm (ʾ-L-M), I am aware of. Could very well be true since he adduces material evidence for his reading. Apart form that, I am not sure to which scholarly schools he belongs. Probably the only reading that rivals Luxenberg's in terms plausibility and explanatory scope. To my knowledge, he seems to emphasize Hebrew. And like Gallez, he was also a Catholic priest. Claude Gilliot's wrote a somewhat positive review of his works(s).

    Here is how the Polish scholar Marcin Grodzki describes Bruno Bonnet-Eymard and his scholarship in a few words:

    Quote
    The article briefly presents the scholarly theory on the historical and dogmatic origins of Islam by the modern French researcher Bruno Bonnet-Eymard, with an attempt to classify its place in the modern field of Islamic studies. The result of over thirty years of Bonnet-Eymard’s work is his translation of the first five Qur’anic suras into French, with their comprehensive critical edition, prepared on the basis of his own philological, historical and theological exegesis. Bonnet-Eymard, who belonged to the Islamicist sceptical school, attempts to read the Arabic Qur’anic text also from the perspective of other Semitic languages – mainly Hebrew and Syriac. Regardless of the flaws and merits of Bonnet-Eymard’s exegesis, it is surely a valuable source of scholarly insights, conclusions and linguistic remarks that cannot be overstated for modern critical studies of the Qur’anic text.


    Quote
    Tell Mahgraye that Bonnet-Emyard is French and that it is on the Syllabus of Reynolds of last year.


    Yes. I am aware that he is French. Reynolds does the field a great service by including such authors as Bruno Bonnet-Eymard in his curriculum. Makes the field move forward.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2783 - August 02, 2018, 06:17 PM

    Bonnet- Emyard:
    Quote
    Apart form that, I am not sure to which scholarly schools he belongs.


    This is what makes him special, he is a group on his own! 1 man fills a whole group.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2784 - August 02, 2018, 06:20 PM

    Seems like it. Grodzki (whom I cite above) describes him as belonging to the so-called Islamicist skeptical school.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2785 - August 02, 2018, 06:36 PM

    They don't need to read the Torah to know they are the sons of Abraham. Sebeos tells you what happened.


    Here's what you said :

    Quote
    They don't need the Quran for this (building the mosque on Temple Mount), the Torah is enough.



    Quote
    And we know Arabs were practicing an Abraham monotheism before islam came on the scene.


    Who told them : "build the mosque on Temple Mount guys!" Or "chase the Jews to replace them!"
    an Abraham monotheism? Which one? Do you have source?
    I think not.

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    I never said that. The real question is who wrote the Quran.


    You said it, because you said the Torah in 637 is enough

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    I never said they spoke Hebrew.


    You said the Torah in 637 is enough in what language for Arab people?
    Arabic? Torah in Arabic, They read Syriac, Greek , you have source? They write Quran after then, after 637 ? I try to understand...it's difficult.

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    Good question. We should ask ourselves with whom did Abraham build a house and where in jewish writings.


    Nowhere. Then, I repeat (not my idea, Gallez one...) it is in the Quranic text, that Ishmael build something as a house. Nowhere else.

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    Sebeos tell you why though obviously not with enough details. The Sebeos text is also weird because it does mention a jewish prince who seems to be ruling. 


    1/Sebeos explains anything clear. Notably why they replace it? He tries to comprehend into his own paradigm. He has no response, no argument to the question.
    2/ His own paradigm. We have no source to corroborate. We know that the Persians gave Jerusalem to the Jews in 614 but removed it. The Arabs give Jerusalem to the Jews? Why not, but we have no source to corroborate Sebeos.
    About the Gallez idea, we have the Quran as indication that what Moschus informs us is present in some way in it (2,127). I think Gallez is plausible here. It is an interesting idea.

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    No the building is not the main item of the story that unfolds here. Read the text again.

    That there is apologetic, for the other items yes, like all many texts of the time.
    About a  building of a house of prayer, what/where is apologetic here? This simple information? What is apologetic? Nothing.
    For a construction of a "masjid=mosque" I see no apologetic ; he just give information.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2786 - August 02, 2018, 06:48 PM

    Reynolds does the field a great service by including such authors as Bruno Bonnet-Eymard in his curriculum. Makes the field move forward.


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2787 - August 02, 2018, 09:41 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1025114780816867329
    Quote
    The Qur'an (95:1-3) swears "by the fig and olive, by Mount Sinai, and by this secure(?) town". Medieval exegetes were baffled.

    The town was presumably Mecca, but what about the figs and olives? Did they signify other holy towns? Or, like Sinai, other holy mountains?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2788 - August 02, 2018, 09:46 PM

    Munther Younes' analysis of Q 95 is very interesting. He argues that v. 5 is interpolated. Can't remember if he said anything about vv. 1-3 in particular.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2789 - August 02, 2018, 10:30 PM



    l-baladi, see the conversation about Bonnet-Eymard. All balad should be check...
    l-amīni : secure? faithful.safe Q 34,37 (because faithful...)
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