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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2940 - August 06, 2018, 09:18 PM

    Gallez has an article about his work on his site. If he didnt know him at time of writing, they sure know each other now.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2941 - August 06, 2018, 09:23 PM

    I see. What do you think, Mundi? Do you see the Quran, or at least its earliest layers, as a Christian document or a Judeo-Christian (Nazorean) one? Since this ties into Luxenberg's work, I might as well ask you what you think of him?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2942 - August 06, 2018, 09:26 PM



    Sinai wrote :
    It is appropriate to be highly sceptical about
    the claim that early Islamic exegesis preserves and transmits the ways in which
    the Qurʾan was understood by the original community of Muhammad’s
    followers, for it appears that already the earliest layer of Islamic scriptural
    interpretation is separated from the Qurʾanic milieu by a significant cultural
    gap and engages in a considerable deal of exegetical guesswork


    Sinai is fucking with us and he thinks that it can works.
    For the tradition, there is no "gap" in  the original community of Muhammad’s
    followers and the early Islamic exegesis.
    There is no "gap" because no events recorded in the history of the time have occurred that could explain it. No cosmic catastrophe, no earthquake, no virus wiping out memory of the (only) Arab people, etc. There is no explication of the "gap" whose Sinai uses to try to explain that the early Islamic exegesis "engages in a considerable deal of exegetical guesswork" meaning that they get nothing to "their" book. "Gap" is a handy word for a phenomenon that scholars cannot deny and that Sinai knows well and that he names "gap" to put aside this phenomenon that he never talk. "It's the gap, guys! Hahaha!"
    Sinai is sufficiently intelligent to understand that he will no use "gap" as long as he wishes. But as no scholar dare to ask questions, he continues. Why he would stop? Indeed. Why?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2943 - August 06, 2018, 09:56 PM

    Funny that he does not cite Gallez. Also funny that Walter's article appeared in a Inarah publication, considering that they (at least Luxenberg) envision early Islam as Christian sect. Walter's hypothesis would be incompatible with that.


    Gallez is also published in Inarah but he criticized their assumptions regarding the origins of islam and the Jesus = Muhammad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2944 - August 06, 2018, 09:58 PM

    Exactly! Was referring just to that.

    For those familiar with Eymard, did he interpret maysir as intoxicants?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2945 - August 06, 2018, 10:58 PM

    Guillaume Dye, “Réflexions méthodologiques sur la ‘rhétorique coranique’,” in Controverses sur les écritures canoniques de l’islam, ed. Daniel de Smet & Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi (Paris: Éditions du Cerf, 2014), 167–171 [147–176]. Available: https://goo.gl/1YcuoE

    Here is the article (actually, the entire book) by Dye that was highlighted by Altara and subsequently discussed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2946 - August 06, 2018, 11:00 PM

    Exactly! Was referring just to that.

    For those familiar with Eymard, did he interpret maysir as intoxicants?


    Yes, with fermented beverage.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2947 - August 06, 2018, 11:03 PM

    Guillaume Dye, “Réflexions méthodologiques sur la ‘rhétorique coranique’,” in Controverses sur les écritures canoniques de l’islam, ed. Daniel de Smet & Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi (Paris: Éditions du Cerf, 2014), 167–171 [147–176]. Available: https://goo.gl/1YcuoE

    Here is the article (actually, the entire book) by Dye that was highlighted by Altara and subsequently discussed.


    Most of the articles are interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2948 - August 06, 2018, 11:05 PM

    What do you think of Jan van Reeth? He really intrigues me. A follower of Luxenberg. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2949 - August 06, 2018, 11:12 PM

    1/Interesting.2/ I do not know!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2950 - August 06, 2018, 11:17 PM

    What do the participants here think of the radical proposal that Q 97 is about the Nativity of Christ? The pronoun hu following the verb anzalnā (v. 1) is not referring to the Quran, but to Jesus Christ. V. 7
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2951 - August 07, 2018, 06:18 AM

    Surah 97:

    Feels very Christmas like...

    Maggraye,

    Amazing that if this is a Christmas Carol that got into the Quran, the "hu"was not corrected to match better with the "Muslim narrative"of the book coming down. Another indication of how important it was to have a fixed text? Even a small correction was not done and exegetical gymnastics were preferred to it.
    Or alternative explanation: the official narrative came into being so late (8-9 century?) that there was no possibility to adapt the text anymore?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2952 - August 07, 2018, 08:30 AM

    I see. What do you think, Mundi? Do you see the Quran, or at least its earliest layers, as a Christian document or a Judeo-Christian (Nazorean) one? Since this ties into Luxenberg's work, I might as well ask you what you think of him?

    What do the participants here think of the radical proposal that Q 97 is about the Nativity of Christ? The pronoun hu following the verb anzalnā (v. 1) is not referring to the Quran, but to Jesus Christ. V. 7


    Both question are related :

    Segovia, Dye et al. are heading slowly but surely towards Luling and Luxenberg "the Quran, or at least its earliest layers, as a Christian document". Interesting.

    Dye's  long article ; La nuit du Destin et la nuit de la Nativité (The night of Fate and the night of the Nativity,), dans Guillaume Dye & Fabien Nobilio, Figures bibliques en islam, (2011)  pp. 107-169.
    For him, there is no doubt that the figure of Jesus appears implicitly in a sura which was dedicated to"Muhammad" by the narrative... (Hahaha!).
    Too bad that this important article is not translated (he has not published yet on academia as well).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2953 - August 07, 2018, 02:35 PM

    Yeah. Even though there are some substantial differences between Lüling and Luxenberg (the former Jewish-Christianity and the latter Trinitarian Christianity), and also despite their unscientific methodology, they both seem to be right in principle on the Christian influence on the Quran. Looking back at some older posts, Daniel A. Beck (aka Zaotar) made a valuable observation, namely that scholarship moved to emphasize the importance of Christianity. These examples - assuming they are correct - scream Christianity at me. Not sure how all of this can be reconciled with Gallez's idea of Jewish-Christianity (Nazorean-Essenes). 

    Dye has summarized his 2011 article:

    Quote
    Quel est l’antécédent de hu (v. 1) ? Y voir le Coran paraît anachronique. Que signifie qadr/qadar dans fī laylati l-qadri (v. 3)? Les autres occurrences coraniques de la racine n’aident guère. L’explication traditionnelle (fête du Nouvel an, durant laquelle descendent sur terre les décrets pour l’année à venir) n’a aucun rapport avec la descente du Coran et n’explique pas salām (« paix ») au v. 5 (terme souvent présent dans le Coran, jamais en ce sens).

    On doit partir du texte. Le champ sémantique évoque la nuit de la Nativité. Luxenberg (2004a and b) a de bonnes intuitions, qu’il faut nuancer et approfondir.

    V. 1 : « destin » et « naissance » peuvent être synonymes, la position des étoiles à la naissance déterminant le destin du nouveau-né (Homélies Ps-Clémentines IV:12.3). Le pronom pers. 3e pers. sg., sans antécédent, est souvent utilisé dans la littérature syriaque pour désigner Jésus. Originellement, hu=Jésus, d’où « nous l’avons fait descendre=naître », mais le texte a pu être réinterprété (hu=Coran), voire en partie modifié, par une communauté de lecteurs postérieure (lors de la composition du muṣḥaf, ou postérieurement, en lien avec Q 44:1–6 – texte peut-être pas si proche). Ne pas confondre le Sitz im Buch (dans le texte canonique ultérieur) et le Sitz im Leben originel (d’une strate plus ancienne) de la sourate.

    V. 3, šahr : pas « mois ». Rapprocher de syriaque šahrā,«veillée », « vigile » ; arabe sahar,«veillée », à comprendre comme vigile (phénomène de Lehnbedeutung). Éphrem : « Ne comptons pas notre vigile comme une vigile ordinaire. C’est une fête dont le salaire dépasse cent pour un » (Hymnes sur la Nativité, XXI:2.1–2).

    V. 4 : texte obscur en l’état. Probable syriacisme (Q 17:89 ; 31:10) : tunazzilu… min kulli ‘amr, « les anges font descendre toutes sortes de ‘amr ». Éphrem :«les anges et les archanges, ce jour-là, sont descendus entonner sur terre un nouveau Gloria » (Hymnes sur la Nativité, XXI:3.1–2), cf. Luk 2:13–14. ‘Amr s’explique par des raisons de rime ou comme corruption de z(a)mar (« chants ») (Hymnes sur la Nativité, XXI:5.1–2, 10.1).

    Le Coran décrit la nuit d’al-qadr comme Éphrem celle de la Nativité : l’hymne d’Éphrem apparaît comme la source du texte. Selon les traditions chrétiennes, la nuit de Noël est caractérisée par la paix, la venue du Christ mettant fin aux pouvoirs des mages et des démons (cf. l’opposition qadr/salām ; les traditions musulmanes substitueront le Coran à Jésus).


    Mundi - I would date some aspects of the official narrative earlier than you do. But you are maybe right in principle.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2954 - August 07, 2018, 02:41 PM

    Quote
    their unscientific methodology


    Not agree on this. Both are cited heavily ; would not be the case if their work was not scientific. You can disagree with them, but not saying their work are not 'scientific'.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2955 - August 07, 2018, 02:52 PM

    Dear comrades,

    Here is a clip from Yousef Kouriyhe in the documentary Jésus et l'islam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhy8gbLses) were he discusses a very important event Muhammad's life from his biography. Could you guys tell what you think, and also find the reference for the story in Ibn Hisham's biography?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2956 - August 07, 2018, 02:54 PM

    Quote
    Not agree on this. Both are cited heavily ; would not be the case if their work was not scientific. You can disagree with them, but not saying their work are not 'scientific'.


    Oh! Please do not get me wrong. I do not claim that they are not important. As you can I see, I am a huge fan. I am only saying that Luxenberg is very biased and his methodology, even if it has produced some good results, is unscientific. Here I am not only referring to the polemical reviews, but also to those who rely upon their works. That is it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2957 - August 07, 2018, 02:59 PM

    Quote
    Luxenberg is very biased and his methodology, even if it has produced some good results, is unscientific.


    Nope, not unscientific. Read the Daniel King review of his work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2958 - August 07, 2018, 03:00 PM

    What do the participants here think of the radical proposal that Q 97 is about the Nativity of Christ?

    Daniel Beck disagrees: http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Beck,%20D%20-%20The%20Annunciation.pdf Any thoughts on this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2959 - August 07, 2018, 03:03 PM

    Quote
    Nope, not unscientific. Read the Daniel King review of his work.


    I was actually referring to King's review in part. Even he criticizes Luxenberg for his methods.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2960 - August 07, 2018, 03:11 PM

    Even Beck noted Luxenberg's problematic methodology, citing none other than Dye:

    Quote
    Correcting significant defects in Luxenberg’s methodology, Dye conducts a much broader analysis of the relevant Syriac and Biblical literature.


    He continues in the following footnote:

    Quote
    Luxenberg tends to form insights that he insists on proving by reading the language of the Qur’ān as Syriac, rather than analyzing the text in late antique context more broadly, including a consideration of relevant Syriac literature. As Tommaso Tesei has quoted an anonymous reviewer of his recent article, “Luxenberg’s emphasis on a Syriac linguistic comparandum for saraban actually prevents him from recognizing important Syriac literary comparanda.”


    He is not the only one. One should distinguish such legitimate criticism of Luxenberg from the polemical dismissals seen from some scholars.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2961 - August 07, 2018, 03:17 PM

    Sinai describes Luxenberg's methods as “seriously flawed” and “circular” and his results “a methodically arbitrary play with associations.” I, of course, do not endorse Sinai's argument.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2962 - August 07, 2018, 03:29 PM

    I was actually referring to King's review in part. Even he criticizes Luxenberg for his methods.


    But it does not say it is "unscientific". You do not understand that criticizing a "method" does not mean that King considers it as "unscientific".  He does not judge it, he criticizes. You, you judge. Not at all the same thing.

    Quote
    Sinai describes Luxenberg's methods as “seriously flawed” and “circular” and his results “a methodically arbitrary play with associations.” I, of course, do not endorse Sinai's argument.


    Same for Sinai. End of story.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2963 - August 07, 2018, 03:40 PM




    Quote
    The Syriac Christian background of Q 97 was obscured as the religious movement that became Islam (a) progressively altered its Annunciation narratives; (b) rejected the worship ritual extolled by Q 97; and (c) articulated an emerging confessional identity with the aid of an intensely creative process of transforming and reconceptualizing Christian incarnation theology.
    This process provides insight into how some early Qur’ānic texts were developed and reinterpreted  to meet changing religious needs. Composition diverged away from archaic Christian beliefs, rituals, and narratives, coalescing as a more strictly monotheistic faith, increasingly political  and genealogical in character.165 That divergence had a unique and contingent character.  From an analytical perspective, the archaic text cannot be forcefully assimilated to its descendants, distorting Q 97 into a primitive version of later Islamic texts and  doctrine.  It is not a rudimentary form that implicitly sought to express such later forms.
    Instead, Q 97 is exactly the kind of Arabic text that one would expect to find near the beginnings  of Islam – intimately connected to the broader religious traditions of late antiquity, but with a unique character that   roved suitable, with the aid of dynamic adaptations, to help define the emerging confession.


    The Syriac Christian background of Q 97 he says, just like Luxenberg and Dye. They are all agree on this, at least. After, each has his own doctrine. But what is most important (for me...) is that they're all agree on things that the narrative thinks about a "prophet" of Islam and the rest (Mecca/Kaba, etc).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2964 - August 07, 2018, 05:03 PM

    life from his biography. Could you guys tell what you think, and also find the reference for the story in Ibn Hisham's biography?


    The names of the fourteen principal men among the sixty riders were:
    'Abdu'I-MasiJ; the 'Aqib, al-Ayham the Sayyid; A-btl lIiiritila b. 'Alqama
    brother of B. Dakr b. \Va'j!; Aus; al-l-,farith; Zayd; Qays; Yazid; ubayh; 403
    Khuwaylid; 'Amr; Khiilid; 'Abdullah; Johannes; of these the first three
    named above spoke to the apostle. They wac Christians according
    to the Byzantine rite, though they differed among themselves in some
    points, saying He is God; and He is the son of God; and He is the third
    person of the Trinity, which is the doctrine of Christianity. They argile
    that he IS God because he used to raise: the dead, and heal the sick, and
    declare the unseen; and make clay birds and then breathe into them so
    ~h~t th.ey flew a\:'a1';2 and all this,was by the command of God Almighty,
    We WIll make 111m a slgn to men. 3 They argue that he is the son of God in
    that they say he had no known father; and he spoke in the cradle and this
    is something that no child of Adam has ever done. They argue that he is
    the third of three in that God says; \Vc have done, \Ye have commanded,
    \Ve have created and \Ve have decreed, and they say, If He were one he
    would have said I have done, I have created, and soon, but He is He and
    Jesus and Mary. Concerning all these assertions the Quran came down.w'hen the two divines spoke to him the apostle said to them, 'Submit
    yourselves.'! They said, '\Ve have submitted.' He said: 'You have not
    submitted, so submit.' They said, 'Nay, but ,ve submitted before you.'
    He said, 'You lie. Your assertion that God has a son, your worship of the
    cross, and your eating pork hold you back from submission.' They said,
    'But who is his father, ~1uhammad?' The apostle was silent and did not
    answer them. So God sent dO\vn concerning their words and their incoherence
    the beginning of the sura of the Family of 'Imran up to more
    than eighty verses, and He said: 'Alif Lam Mim. God there is no God but
    He the Living the Ever-existent.'z Thus the sura begins \-\lith the statement
    that He transcends what they say, and His oneness in creation and authority,
    without associate therein, in refutation of the infidelity they have
    in~ented, and their making rivals to Him; and using their O\\'n arguments
    against them in reference to their master to shO\v them their error thcre?y.
    'God there is no God but He,' no associate is with Him in His authorIty........

    Sira RasullAllah, translated by Guillaume, p 270
    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/Guillaume--Life%20of%20Muhammad.pdf


    Those christians did believe in the trinity God, Jesus and Mary  Huh?

    Muhammad was not exactly silent ; this was just needed as a background for another revelation from Allah to prove christians wrong about their beliefs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2965 - August 07, 2018, 05:31 PM

    Quote
    Those christians did believe in the trinity God, Jesus and Mary  Huh?


    What do you mean?

    Thanks for the reference.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2966 - August 07, 2018, 05:52 PM

    Concerning Surah 97:

    Looking at Table 2 of https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html, I notice that only the first 3 verses are found in only 1 manuscript of the 1C AH.

    Statistically this is very suspicious.

    Apparently the first half of the Quran has been found extant much more frequently than the last half. Is this an indication of a later addition of the last part? That would make 97 a late addition....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2967 - August 07, 2018, 05:57 PM

    Q 97 is one of the more archaic sūras. Claiming that it is an addition is absurd, especially on the basis of its abcense in some manuscripts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2968 - August 07, 2018, 06:09 PM

    Maggraye,

    Look at the list! I know it is weird, but 97:4-5 is not there. Maybe 97 is archaic but only added later?

    I think this is an important point. We have accepted early collection of the "complete" Quran, but looking at the list, I must review my position. It is statistically impossible to have the first half so frequently extantly present and the last half much rarer.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2969 - August 07, 2018, 08:22 PM

    Guys, what do you think is the significance of the story told by Yousef Kouriyhe in the documentary Jésus et l'islam?

     
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