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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1509125 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3030 - August 09, 2018, 07:28 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 09, 2018, 06:17 PM
    Marc S - You said that Florence Mraizika, author of Le Coran décréé, was in Gallez's camp, affirming the Nazorean thesis. But I don't think that is the case. Just like Luxenberg, she thinks that the Quran affirmed the Trinity, or at least the Divinity of Jesus, and that this belief was subsequently changed at the hands of later redactors by tampering with the manuscripts. She gives as an example an instance were the word “Mary” was (allegedly) added after the word “son” as to make it “Son of Mary” instead of “son”. What do you and the other guys think?


    I said she belongs to his galaxy. Actually she is closer to a guy called Odon Lafontaine who worked with Gallez to produce a summary of Gallez's thesis that was made available for free on the internet and helped spreading Gallez's assumptions on islam.

    I agree with you that what she implies with that addition of Mary after son differs from Gallez's view. In her book, she quotes Inarah, and Luxemberg a lot, and re-reading her book right now, I find it much more interesting when I read it the first time. She, for example, makes the assumptions that Muhammad comes from a group of arabs living in the kingdom of Himyar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3031 - August 09, 2018, 07:32 PM
    Interesting.  Odon Lafontaine is basically Gallez's disciple. He follows his thesis to the last detail.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3032 - August 09, 2018, 10:28 PM
    A double entendre? Q 5:115 targets both the Trinity and Thetokos? Did I get you right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3033 - August 09, 2018, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 09, 2018, 10:07 AM
    Well, there are two explanation. The first argues that the verse targets the Trinity and that mother is the Holy Spirit, not Mary. The second rejects this, arguing that the verse is about Mariology and targets Theotokos. In other words, according to the second explanation, the verse does talk about Mary, not the Trinity.


    The verse target the  two explanation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3034 - August 09, 2018, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 09, 2018, 10:28 PM
    A double entendre? Q 5:115 targets both the Trinity and Thetokos? Did I get you right?


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3035 - August 09, 2018, 10:30 PM
    Oh! The Quran intentionally used the language in such a way in order to attack both doctrines at the same time.  Hitting two birds with one stone.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3036 - August 09, 2018, 10:32 PM
    Because Mary is venerated either as "mother is the Holy Spirit" like  in Syriac where the Spirit is feminine. And as Theotokos she is venerated as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3037 - August 09, 2018, 10:37 PM
    It is the work of literati. Not from a "prophet' in an unknown city.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3038 - August 09, 2018, 10:38 PM
    A work of intellectual(s), indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3039 - August 09, 2018, 10:43 PM
    Quote
    She, for example, makes the assumptions that Muhammad comes from a group of arabs living in the kingdom of Himyar.


    She thinking that Muhammad was from Himyar rings a bell. Carlos Segovia wrote something about the relationship between Quranic christology and the Himyar.

    Carlos A. Segovia, “The Jews and Christians of Pre-Islamic Yemen (Ḥimyar) and the Elusive Matrix of the Qurʾān’s Christology,” in Jewish Christianity and the Origins of Islam, ed. F. del Río Sánchez (Turnhout: Brepols Publishers, 2018), pp. 91–194. Available: https://goo.gl/MkmWiP

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3040 - August 10, 2018, 04:59 PM
    Quote
    She thinking that Muhammad was from Himyar rings a bell. Carlos Segovia wrote something about the relationship between Quranic christology and the Himyar.


    Interesting. Thanks for this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3041 - August 10, 2018, 07:30 PM
    Manuscripts:

    Does the layout of the Quran tell us something about how it was used? Compare with this 7th C English bible: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2012/04/st-cuthbert-gospel-saved-for-the-nation.html?_ga=2.120765448.1497106466.1533814718-1587045008.15338147

    This from a part of the world with a much lesser developed culture than 7th C ME.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3042 - August 10, 2018, 08:37 PM
    Some would say that the physical appearance of the manuscripts indicate that they were mere drafts for public use.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3043 - August 10, 2018, 08:49 PM
    Drafts:

    But the Quranic manuscripts are not exactly "easy reading". Compare with the 7C bible, well structured, making loud reading in services easier.

    Quranic manuscripts have the weird ambiguity that they have a very fixed rasm but seem not to have been read...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3044 - August 10, 2018, 08:51 PM
    Of course the manuscripts could be read. Arabs read with proficiency despite the so-called scriptio defectiva. We can also be relatvely certain that the diacritical marks of today's Quran are more or less correct.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3045 - August 10, 2018, 08:54 PM
    And what is the point of all of these manuscripts if they were not read.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3046 - August 10, 2018, 08:54 PM
    The etymological root of the very word Quran indicated that it is a recited text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3047 - August 10, 2018, 08:57 PM
    In know the manuscripts could be read, we read them even today. But they are not designed for practical use. And this in a world that was highly literate for millennia.
    The Surah's are ordered from long to short for easy traceability. Yet one surah flows over in the other one on the same page...
    The early manuscripts seem to be highly impractical in a world that knew better. I think it is strange.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3048 - August 10, 2018, 08:58 PM
    I would say it is common. Everything was not invented at the earliest stages. Seem that you read too much into these matters.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3049 - August 10, 2018, 08:59 PM
    Quote
    The etymological root of the very word Quran indicated that it is a recited text


    In the Quran itself is often mentioned READ, and this is a book. The myth of orality is contradicted by the primary source: the Quran
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3050 - August 10, 2018, 09:01 PM
    Read actually means call!.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3051 - August 10, 2018, 09:03 PM
    Quote
    And what is the point of all of these manuscripts if they were not read.


    I really wonder.

    I think that analysing and comparing the design of the manuscripts is an important topic that might help us understand the role of the book in early times.
    We see that later on, the aspect of the Quran changes. We know that by then the book was used very intensively.

    My point is that 7C ME was not the "prehistory"of writing. The contrary. Why were these early manuscripts not further developed for easy use and esthetics considering that the empire was ruled from Damascus, practically the centre of the cultural world?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3052 - August 10, 2018, 09:04 PM
    Political strife.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3053 - August 10, 2018, 09:08 PM
    In the 7th C the time of oral transmission of holy texts was over. The gospels were canonised, the misnah and talmud were written down.

    Nobody would be convinced by someone saying "I have a book in my head". And it has been transmitted perfectly from ear to ear... That era was over. 7 C was the time of WRITTEN holy texts. Going for this orality is a later construct.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3054 - August 10, 2018, 09:09 PM
    But I am not going for any orality, tho. The Quran, parts of the at least, was transmitted in written form.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3055 - August 10, 2018, 11:07 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 09, 2018, 10:43 PM
    She thinking that Muhammad was from Himyar rings a bell. Carlos Segovia wrote something about the relationship between Quranic christology and the Himyar.

    Carlos A. Segovia, “The Jews and Christians of Pre-Islamic Yemen (Ḥimyar) and the Elusive Matrix of the Qurʾān’s Christology,” in Jewish Christianity and the Origins of Islam, ed. F. del Río Sánchez (Turnhout: Brepols Publishers, 2018), pp. 91–194. Available: https://goo.gl/MkmWiP


    The Ḥimyarites are interesting. But in this case, the North Arabic script in which the Quran is written have to be explained as it is no written in the more suitable Yemeni cursive.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3056 - August 10, 2018, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 10, 2018, 08:54 PM
    The etymological root of the very word Quran indicated that it is a recited text.


    We do not have other texts to compare which are necessary to understand the meaning of the Arabic words used by the Quran in the 7th century.  Roots system have been invented by Muslim grammarians...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3057 - August 10, 2018, 11:14 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 10, 2018, 09:03 PM
    I really wonder.

    I think that analyzing and comparing the design of the manuscripts is an important topic that might help us understand the role of the book in early times.


    I do not think at all that the "book" (for example BNF Arabe 328, etc) is the original form of the Quranic text(S)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3058 - August 10, 2018, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 10, 2018, 09:01 PM
    Read actually means call!.


    But there is a difference between "read" and "call"or "recite"....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3059 - August 10, 2018, 11:26 PM
    Ahmad Al-Jallad - The Arabic of Petra

    https://www.academia.edu/37215697/Al_Jallad.2018._The_Arabic_of_Petra
    Which side are you on?
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