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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3330 - August 21, 2018, 12:10 PM

    Dhu Nuwas, that is.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3331 - August 21, 2018, 12:12 PM

    What event exactly in Najran ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3332 - August 21, 2018, 12:12 PM

    Dhu Nuwas, that is.


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3333 - August 21, 2018, 12:13 PM

    Not sure exactly. Najran just came to mind. Am I close?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3334 - August 21, 2018, 12:14 PM

    Not sure exactly. Najran just came to mind. Am I close?

    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3335 - August 21, 2018, 12:15 PM

    Guys, guys... You're surprising me. You are all interested in the subject, I remind you...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3336 - August 21, 2018, 12:18 PM

    Murder of Uthman?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3337 - August 21, 2018, 01:36 PM

    The topic was about hijra/ the year of the Arabs
    I said :

    It can be a political event. R. Kerr has noted that it could be the starting of the counter attack of Heraclius in April  622. An interesting option.
    But I think to another option, which is only known by Muslim sources. Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it. An event before 632, of course.


    Guys, guys... You're surprising me. You are all interested in the subject, I remind you...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3338 - August 21, 2018, 03:04 PM

    Guys, guys.& Girls .. You're surprising me. You are all interested in the subject, I remind you...

    well guys and girls who are connected to Islam for different reasons always be interested in what experts say on the origins of Islam dear Altara...

    as far as staying on the subject is concerned.. they can move around a bit..anyways  Mahgraye mentions a word
    ...........Imru al-Qays...............

    Nope.

    ..Mahgraye mentions  and BBC TALKS .. .. is there any connection??

    Imru’ al-Qais.....or Imru al-Qays....   
     
    well I am sure very few readers ..even if they are born in Islamic parents  .. they know very little about  Imru’ al-Qais.. The King .. The Poet king of The Kingdom of Kindah.. Hmm here are the kingdoms of Ancient Arabia


    So on that  The Poet king   Imru’ al-Qais., 

    Quote
    ................the legend has it that ‘ruin poetry’ began with a 6th Century king, exiled due to an excessive love of poetry  The motif of the atlal (‘ruins’) originates in the pre-Islamic period, among the so-called Jahili (‘agnostic’ or Pre-Islamic) poets. It’s thought that its originator was the 6th Century poet-king Imru’ al-Qais. Al-Qais was the last king of the kingdom of Kindah, and is often hailed as the father of Arabic poetry. He spent much of his life banished from his kingdom, ostensibly due to his excessive love of poetry, and during his exile he wandered the lands of Arabia and wrote poetry.

    In his contribution to the Mu'allaqat, al-Qais describes a character stopping for a time at the ruins of a campsite and remembering his beloved in the ruins. He opens by describing the desolate place, broken and overgrown by nature...........


    well here is one  of his poems...

    Quote
    THE POEM OF IMRU-UL-QUAIS1

       Stop, oh my friends,
    let us pause to weep over the remembrance of my beloved.
       Here was her abode on the edge of the sandy desert between Dakhool and Howmal.
       The traces of her encampment are not wholly obliterated even now.
       For when the South wind blows the sand over them the North wind sweeps it away.
       The courtyards and enclosures of the old home have become desolate;
       The dung of the wild deer lies there thick as the seeds of pepper.
       On the morning of our separation it was as if I stood in the gardens of our tribe,
       Amid the acacia-shrubs where my eyes were blinded with tears by the smart from the bursting pods of colocynth.
       As I lament thus in the place made desolate, my friends stop their camels;
       They cry to me "Do not die of grief; bear this sorrow patiently."
       Nay, the cure of my sorrow must come from gushing tears.
       Yet, is there any hope that this desolation can bring me solace?
       So before ever I met Unaizah, did I mourn for two others;
       My fate had been the same with Ummul-Huwairith and her neighbor Ummul-Rahab in Masal.
       Fair were they also, diffusing the odor of musk as they moved,
       Like the soft zephyr bringing with it the scent of the clove.
       Thus the tears flowed down on my breast, remembering days of love;
       The tears wetted even my sword-belt, so tender was my love.
       Behold how many pleasant days have I spent with fair women;
       Especially do I remember the day at the pool of Darat-i-Juljul.2
       On that day I killed my riding camel for food for the maidens:
       How merry was their dividing my camel's trappings to be carried on their camels.
       It is a wonder, a riddle, that the camel being saddled was yet unsaddled!
       A wonder also was the slaughterer, so heedless of self in his costly gift!
       Then the maidens commenced throwing the camel's flesh into the kettle;
       The fat was woven with the lean like loose fringes of white twisted silk.
       On that day I entered the howdah, the camel's howdah of Unaizah!
       And she protested, saying, "Woe to you, you will force me to travel on foot."
       She repulsed me, while the howdah was swaying with us;
       She said, "You are galling my camel, Oh Imru-ul-Quais, so dismount."
       Then I said, "Drive him on! Let his reins go loose, while you turn to me.
       Think not of the camel and our weight on him. Let us be happy.
       "Many a beautiful woman like you, Oh Unaizah, have I visited at night;
       I have won her thought to me, even from her children have I won her."
       There was another day when I walked with her behind the sandhills,
       But she put aside my entreaties and swore an oath of virginity.
       Oh, Unaizah, gently, put aside some of this coquetry.
       If you have, indeed, made up your mind to cut off friendship with me, then do it kindly or gently.
       Has anything deceived you about me, that your love is killing me,
       And that verily as often as you order my heart, it will do what you order?
       And if any one of my habits has caused you annoyance,
       Then put away my heart from your heart, and it will be put away.
       And your two eyes do not flow with tears, except to strike me with arrows in my broken heart.
       Many a fair one, whose tent can not be sought by others, have I enjoyed playing with.
       I passed by the sentries on watch near her, and a people desirous of killing me;
       If they could conceal my murder, being unable to assail me openly.
       I passed by these people at a time, when the Pleiades appeared in the heavens,
       As the appearance of the gems in the spaces in the ornamented girdle, set with pearls and gems.
       Then she said to me, "I swear by God, you have no excuse for your wild life;
       I can not expect that your erring habits will ever be removed from your nature."
       I went out with her; she walking, and drawing behind us, over our footmarks,
       The skirts of an embroidered woolen garment, to erase the footprints.
       Then when we had crossed the enclosure of the tribe,
       The middle of the open plain, with its sandy undulations and sandhills, we sought.
       I drew the tow side-locks of her head toward me; and she leant toward me;
       She was slender of waist, and full in the ankle.
       Thin-waisted, white-skinned, slender of body,
       Her breast shining polished like a mirror.
       In complexion she is like the first egg of the ostrich—white, mixed with yellow.
       Pure water, unsullied by the descent of many people in it, has nourished her.
       She turns away, and shows her smooth cheek, forbidding with a glancing eye,
       Like that of a wild animal, with young, in the desert of Wajrah.
       And she shows a neck like the neck of a white deer;
       It is neither disproportionate when she raises it, nor unornamented.
       And a perfect head of hair which, when loosened, adorns her back
       Black, very dark-colored, thick like a date-cluster on a heavily-laden date-tree.
       Her curls creep upward to the top of her head;
       And the plaits are lost in the twisted hair, and the hair falling loose.
       And she meets me with a slender waist, thin as the twisted leathern nose-rein of a camel.
       Her form is like the stem of a palm-tree bending over from the weight of its fruit.
       In the morning, when she wakes, the particles of musk are lying over her bed.
       She sleeps much in the morning; she does not need to gird her waist with a working dress.
       She gives with thin fingers, not thick, as if they were the worms of the desert of Zabi,
       In the evening she brightens the darkness, as if she were the light-tower of a monk.
       Toward one like her, the wise man gazes incessantly, lovingly
       She is well proportioned in height between the wearer of a long dress and of a short frock.
       The follies of men cease with youth, but my heart does not cease to love you.
       Many bitter counselors have warned me of the disaster of your love, but I turned away from them.
       Many a night has let down its curtains around me amid deep grief,
       It has whelmed me as a wave of the sea to try me with sorrow.
       Then I said to the night, as slowly his huge bulk passed over me,
       As his breast, his loins, his buttocks weighed on me and then passed afar,
       "Oh long night, dawn will come, but will be no brighter without my love.
       You are a wonder, with stars held up as by ropes of hemp to a solid rock."
       At other times, I have filled a leather water-bag of my people and entered the desert,
       And trod its empty wastes while the wolf howled like a gambler whose family starves.
       I said to the wolf, "You gather as little wealth, as little prosperity as I.
       What either of us gains he gives away. So do we remain thin."
       Early in the morning, while the birds were still nesting, I mounted my steed.
       Well-bred was he, long-bodied, outstripping the wild beasts in speed,
       Swift to attack, to flee, to turn, yet firm as a rock swept down by the torrent,
       Bay-colored, and so smooth the saddle slips from him, as the rain from a smooth stone,
       Thin but full of life, fire boils within him like the snorting of a boiling kettle;
       He continues at full gallop when other horses are dragging their feet in the dust for weariness.
       A boy would be blown from his back, and even the strong rider loses his garments.
       Fast is my steed as a top when a child has spun it well.
       He has the flanks of a buck, the legs of an ostrich, and the gallop of a wolf.
       From behind, his thick tail hides the space between his thighs, and almost sweeps the ground.
       When he stands before the house, his back looks like the huge grinding-stone there.
       The blood of many leaders of herds is in him, thick as the juice of henna in combed white hair.
       As I rode him we saw a flock of wild sheep, the ewes like maidens in long-trailing robes;
       They turned for flight, but already he had passed the leaders before they could scatter.
       He outran a bull and a cow and killed them both, and they were made ready for cooking;
       Yet he did not even sweat so as to need washing.
       We returned at evening, and the eye could scarcely realize his beauty
       For, when gazing at one part, the eye was drawn away by the perfection of another part.
       He stood all night with his saddle and bridle on him,
       He stood all night while I gazed at him admiring, and did not rest in his stable.
       But come, my friends, as we stand here mourning, do you see the lightning?
       See its glittering, like the flash of two moving hands, amid the thick gathering clouds.
       Its glory shines like the lamps of a monk when he has dipped their wicks thick in oil.
       I sat down with my companions and watched the lightning and the coming storm.
       So wide-spread was the rain that its right end seemed over Quatan,
       Yet we could see its left end pouring down on Satar, and beyond that over Yazbul.
       So mighty was the storm that it hurled upon their faces the huge kanahbul trees,
       The spray of it drove the wild goats down from the hills of Quanan.
       In the gardens of Taimaa not a date-tree was left standing,
       Nor a building, except those strengthened with heavy stones.
       The mountain, at the first downpour of the rain, looked like a giant of our people draped in a striped cloak.
       The peak of Mujaimir in the flood and rush of débris looked like a whirling spindle.
       The clouds poured forth their gift on the desert of Ghabeet, till it blossomed
       As though a Yemani merchant were spreading out all the rich clothes from his trunks,
       As though the little birds of the valley of Jiwaa awakened in the morning
       And burst forth in song after a morning draught of old, pure, spiced wine.
       As though all the wild beasts had been covered with sand and mud, like the onion's root-bulbs.
       They were drowned and lost in the depths of the desert at evening.

    Hmm.. I need to read that again and again...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3339 - August 21, 2018, 03:06 PM

    He was the king of the Arabs. See the Namārah inscription.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3340 - August 21, 2018, 03:15 PM

    Guys, guys... You're surprising me. You are all interested in the subject, I remind you...


    The batttle of Dhi Quar ?   Roll Eyes
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3341 - August 21, 2018, 03:58 PM

    Some possibilities as the actual hijrah.

    The Battle of the Trench, which de Prémare interprets as a battle against the Ghassanides.

    The exodus to Ethiopia.

     


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3342 - August 21, 2018, 04:39 PM

    The batttle of Dhi Quar ?   Roll Eyes


    Why?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3343 - August 21, 2018, 04:48 PM

    Some possibilities as the actual hijrah.

    The Battle of the Trench, which de Prémare interprets as a battle against the Ghassanides.

    The exodus to Ethiopia.


    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3344 - August 21, 2018, 04:49 PM

    well guys and girls who are connected to Islam for different reasons always be interested in what experts say on the origins of Islam dear Altara...

    as far as staying on the subject is concerned.. they can move around a bit..anyways  Mahgraye mentions a word ..Mahgraye mentions  and BBC TALKS .. .. is there any connection??

    Imru’ al-Qais.....or Imru al-Qays....   
     
    well I am sure very few readers ..even if they are born in Islamic parents  .. they know very little about  Imru’ al-Qais.. The King .. The Poet king of The Kingdom of Kindah.. Hmm here are the kingdoms of Ancient Arabia


    So on that  The Poet king   Imru’ al-Qais., 

    well here is one  of his poems...
    Hmm.. I need to read that again and again...



    Wonderful poem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3345 - August 21, 2018, 04:54 PM

    De Prémare speaks of the following possible destinations for the hijrha: Medina, Bahrayn, and Qinnasrin. The last option - Qinnasrin - might have been the basis for the conquest of Persia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3346 - August 21, 2018, 04:57 PM

    Why?


    Well, after the persians killed the last Lakhmid king and appointed a puppet arab chief, this clash between the persian forces and their arab auxiliaries vs a group of arab tribes saw the first major victory of those arab tribes against the sassanian empire. It seems to have been a major event in the arab sources.

    Were you referring to that ?  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3347 - August 21, 2018, 05:21 PM

    Quote
    De Prémare speaks of the following possible destinations for the hijrha


    Oh, i thought there was no hijra (cfr Kerr). The Hijra is a later construct, it is not mentioned in Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3348 - August 21, 2018, 05:23 PM

    There was something. Maybe the standard interpretation of the hijrah as from Mecca to Medina is a later construction.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3349 - August 21, 2018, 05:38 PM

    I dont know, maybe the hjr root has nothing to do with it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3350 - August 21, 2018, 06:14 PM

    Well, after the persians killed the last Lakhmid king and appointed a puppet arab chief, this clash between the persian forces and their arab auxiliaries vs a group of arab tribes saw the first major victory of those arab tribes against the sassanian empire. It seems to have been a major event in the arab sources.


    Ok. What do you think?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3351 - August 21, 2018, 06:28 PM

    Oh, i thought there was no hijra (cfr Kerr). The Hijra is a later construct, it is not mentioned in Quran.


    It is.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3352 - August 21, 2018, 07:21 PM

    Ok. What do you think?




    After reading Decline and Fall of the Sassanian Empire, I tried and looked to see if there was a link between the Lakhmids and the "muslim" conquests in Persia. This is not so clear.

    I have different issues in making this connection :

    - the date of the battle itself is not that clear,
    - therefore, it is difficult to link this battle to any subsequent event,
    - However one cannot deny the fact this event did echo very loud in the arab tradition, one hadith even have Muhammad mentionning it,

    The Lakhmids kind of disappearred from history between 610 and the beginning of the muslim conquests in the East. They don't seem to have played any role in those conquests. This needs investigating but sources are scarce.

    If you think this event is the beginning of the era of the arabs, how do you see it happening ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3353 - August 21, 2018, 08:08 PM

    Quote
    After reading Decline and Fall of the Sassanian Empire, I tried and looked to see if there was a link between the Lakhmids


    Because you lack of what the Nasrid were to the Persians and did with them from the end of the 4,  and 5 and 6th c. I invite you to check : academia. Decline and Fall of the Sassanian Empire is really not enough : it shows the road that's all.
    Quote
    - the date of the battle itself is not that clear,


    Yes. Muslim sources are upset with dates, it's logic as showed Pourshariati who establish that theirs are inexact. About the war in Iraq.
    But they could not removed the memory of the war which has started well before any "prophet", Mecca, and all the stuff. As there is no sources about that, it seems logical to say that the "conquest" has started here. It's seems (to me...) more rational than a "prophet" in a city thet nobody know before 700-20. Why because we have source on the "why" and the reason and  the starting of the war. Rational and coherent.
    Of course, the question then is where comes from the Quran. Again work is the key.

    Quote
    therefore, it is difficult to link this battle to any subsequent event,


    It seems rather logic (for me...) : as time goes by the Romans crushed the Persians. The Arabs-Persians  which are/were  their loyal vassals, are in revolt against them since 602 in Iraq. Dhu Qar, when, we do not know,  is a great victory for them, as the Persians are already engaged against the Romans. The rest is known :  as time goes by... the situation is more and more difficult for the Persians an 628 is coming : defeat,, etc.
    No "prophet", no Zem Zem, no Mecca, no Medina. Why?
    Because there is not need  : look at the Nasrid were to the Persians and did with them from the end of the 4,  and 5 and 6th c.  against whom? The Romans. I invite you to check : academia.
    Quote
    The Lakhmids kind of disappearred from history between 610 and the beginning of the muslim conquests in the East.


    The "muslim" conquest is them and their allies from the East coast, finishing the (already finished) Persians.
    look at the Nasrid were to the Persians and did with them from the end of the 4,  and 5 and 6th c.  against whom? The Romans. Where are the Romans : West.
    636 : Yarmuk : West.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3354 - August 21, 2018, 08:28 PM

    It is.


    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=hjr#(8:72:4)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3355 - August 21, 2018, 08:47 PM

    Quote
    look at the Nasrid were to the Persians and did with them from the end of the 4,  and 5 and 6th c.  against whom? The Romans. I invite you to check : academia.


    The Nasrids. Are you talking about the dynasty that founded Grenada ? You mean the Banu Khazraj then ?

    One thing troubles me though with the scenarii you are describing , and that is numismatics.

    Coins of Choroes wirh arabic script and fire altar pictures as soon as the Muawiya era, and even before, could portray an alliance rather than a conquest, or you adhere to the assumptions that the first arab conquerors only applied arabic writings to the coins in the beginning before designing their own coinage ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3356 - August 21, 2018, 09:03 PM

    Quote
    The Nasrids. Are you talking about the dynasty that founded Grenada ? You mean the Banu Khazraj then ?


    Nope. The "first" Nasrids : Arabs Persians. Check academia.

    Quote
    Coins of Choroes wirh arabic script and fire altar pictures as soon as the Muawiya era, and even before, could portray an alliance rather than a conquest, or you adhere to the assumptions that the first arab conquerors only applied arabic writings to the coins in the beginning before designing their own coinage ?


    They did the same pattern as they did in the West. Borrowing coins and then after designing their own coinage : 692 (690?) Abd al Malik reform in the West. Iraq was under Syrian rule after the war.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3357 - August 22, 2018, 07:42 AM

    Quote
    Nope. The "first" Nasrids : Arabs Persians. Check academia.


    Ok. I found the papers. I will look into them. Thanks.

    Shall I deduct that you think the Quraysh is the new name of the Nasrids ascribed by the islamic tradition in order to hide their origins  ?

    Quote
    They did the same pattern as they did in the West. Borrowing coins and then after designing their own coinage : 692 (690?) Abd al Malik reform in the West. Iraq was under Syrian rule after the war.


    In her book, Le Coran décrée, Florence Mraizika says that on numimastics documents from the kingdom of Georgia, one can read al hamdou lilah written in arabic as soon as 630 on coins dating from the era of Shahrvaraz (commander in chief of the armies of Choroes II) and so it seems that the sassanid empire did introduce arabic formulas on coins before the arab conquests.

    One can then wonder if we don't have here, in the fall of the Sassanid empire, the consequence of a civil war among persians in which arabs were involved, potentially on both sides, and this started very early and later muslim traditions turned into an external conquest an internal civil war. It means we should totally review the timeline of the arab conquest in the east in potentially a more drastic way than what Parvaneh Pourshariati did her book. 

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3358 - August 22, 2018, 08:41 AM

    Quote
    Shall I deduct that you think the Quraysh were the new name of the Nasrids in order to hide their origins and help build the islamic tradition ?


    Possible.

    Quote
    In her book, Le Coran décrée, Florence Mraizika says that on numimastics documents from the kingdom of Georgia, one can read al hamdou lilah written in arabic as soon as 630 on coins dating from the era of Shahrvaraz (commander in chief of the armies of Choroes II) and so it seems that the sassanid empire did introduce arabic formulas on coins before the arab conquests.


    Do you have the page?

    Quote
    One can then wonder if we don't have here, in the fall of the Sassanid empire, the consequence of a civil war among persians in which arabs were involved, potentially on both sides, and this started very early and later muslim traditions turned into an external conquest an internal civil war.


     The events are : murder of Numan III ,  Nasrid (Iraqi) Arab revolt, war with the Romans : 602/3. Dhu Qar (no date). 628 : defeat and murder of Khosro : collapsing of the Persian state. Slowly  Nasrid (Iraqi) Arabs take control : end of "conquest" 654.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3359 - August 22, 2018, 09:02 AM

    Quote
    Do you have the page?


    "Une autre difficulté de taille se profile maintenant. En consultant les documents numismatiques du royaume de Géorgie[41], le numismate peut lire sur des pièces sassanides de l’époque de Shahrvarāz (commandant en chef des armées de Choroès II) un protocole Al ḥamdou Lilah transcrit déjà, dès 630, en lettres arabes (cf. document). Donc, les fameuses trois consonnes auraient déjà été emblématiques pour l’Empire sassanide avant d’être employées par les proto-musulmans. « C’est comme si ces lettres avaient devancé l’arrivée d’Omar, or il n’est nullement l’introducteur des monnaies musulmanes. » Pour l’auteur, l’alphabet arabe a tout simplement pioché dans celui des perses. Les trois consonnes bénies sont présentes dès le début du règne d’Omar en arabe ou en pahlavi sur des pièces à l’effigie de Chosroês et du culte mazdéen. En fait, la Cour impériale de Chosroês devait dès 561 – année où un traité de paix avait été conclu avec Byzance – avoir développé l’écriture arabe pour pouvoir communiquer avec l’État arabe, vassal de Hira. Mais alors cette expression si coranique, si islamique, serait-elle d’origine perse ? Les deux alphabets perses et arabes se côtoient alors sur une même pièce. Et que dire de ces autres pièces qui exhibent des éléphants avec l'inscription mhmd rassoul Allah ? "

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