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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3540 - August 28, 2018, 01:11 PM

    He is very much open to criticism.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3541 - August 28, 2018, 01:14 PM

    He is very much open to criticism.

    that is good enough  that is all what is needed

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3542 - August 28, 2018, 01:33 PM

    He is very open to discussion. But these young guys all know each other and indeed keep themselves in line. They are "good guys, not nasty with a contrarian inclination. So naturally they dont try to shock their friends and chose the right path.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3543 - August 28, 2018, 01:40 PM

    1/When I read the word "gnosis" about Islam, I'm sorry but the author does not know what he's talking about and I'm becoming about the rest of his discourse, suspicious. Gnosis is considering that the Biblical God is evil an that there is another God .


    Gnosis is about knowledge. What you describe as gnosis is Marcionism, a sub-branch of Gnosis but certainly not the definition of Gnosis.

    Quote
    The Quran tells that?


    The Quran doesn't explain the Shia 12 Imams dogma for example. At the same time, Shia complain that Ali's Quran was much bigger than today's Quran. Also, you wanna make a link between Quran and Muhammad ; I think it is a mistake as that link is artificial (the Quran isn't about Muhammad)

    Quote
    Hanif is used by the Quran like this : non Jew.  To tell that Abraham was not Jew that is all.Therefore that the Jew cannot take Abraham as a Jew.


    No, the Quran uses hanif to say that Abraham is neither a Jew nor a Christian. But you are aware of the debate over the real meaning of this word, and its potential derogatory meaning in christianism towards arabs.

    Quote
    Soap opera internal Arabs struggle affair based on the 9th c. Muslims sources. I've already state that Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīya would be a son of Ali, one of the leader in the East defeated by Muawiya from the West. If it is true, from where Ali has named his son? Shakespeare?


    I don't understand your point here.

    Quote
    As I already (yawn...) said, there is no  epigraphical, archaeological, or scribal source that attests that Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīya was called somewhere  "rasul Allah". There is no-thing. None. I really don't know how to say it more clearly.


    I don't think that is the real issue. My current thought is that the Mahdi was the Muhammad and this was a thinking that was prevalent when the Bishapur coin was minted. Raymond Dequin doesn't state Muhammad ibn al Haniffiya was a real figure neither, nor that his title had to include both "Muhammad" and "Haniffiya" together.

    Quote
    The non Muslim source did not even know  the OTHER sons of Ali, these guys do not count. And  Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīya would be "rasul Allah"?


    The non muslim sources didn't know Ali himself apart from late sources corrupted by muslim sources.  

    Quote
    9th c. Muslims sources. Nothing in that time (650-700) is attested by the non Muslim one which have no "Arab internal agenda" and are outside of this stuff. And I repeat there is no  epigraphical, archaeological, or scribal source that attests that Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīya was called somewhere  "rasul Allah". There is no-thing. None.

                                                            
    We don't know the agenda of the 9th century sources here. Why did they have to create a guy matching the prophet of islam ? If it was only to validate the claims of the Sunnis vs the Shias, they didn't need to go through all this.

    Quote
    The Mandeans,  and Marcion now? No comment... (yawn).


    The Mandeans were called Sabeans in Irak and Sabeans are in the Quran. As you have read AJ Deus, you know that he thought Muawiya was a Sabean because he settled his head-quarters in Damascus.

    Quote
    Ok I'm going to stop here.  I did my best. Sorry Marc...


    Don't be sorry. Like I said, there are interesting stuff in it for me. It doesn't mean he is right on everything but I think he raises some valid points still. Islam is a patchwork of beliefs and, once again, that goes beyond the Quran alone.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3544 - August 28, 2018, 02:22 PM

    He is very open to discussion. But these young guys all know each other and indeed keep themselves in line. They are "good guys, not nasty with a contrarian inclination. So naturally they dont try to shock their friends and chose the right path.


    Of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3545 - August 28, 2018, 02:27 PM

    The good method is not to be "convinced" by another narrative. It is to be convinced by what you build . The topic is so vast, and has so much parameters, that, in my opinion, it cannot be otherwise.


    That is exactly the path I am following. I never said I agree with Raymonbd Dequin narrative but I like his thinking about the Mahdi and Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya. I still need to translate the rest of his paper as there are other items that look interesting but I wonder how he got there (he seems to have proved that the Abassids were related to the Umayyads, a strange thing because it remains to be proved that you had Umayyads as a true family and not an islamic fantasy, he says that some of Abu Muslim events were back projected to Muhammad).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3546 - August 28, 2018, 02:37 PM

    Marjin van Putten says that there are so little variations in the oldest manuscripts


    I have a question to you guys when I read this. I thought the purpose of Corpus Coranica was to go through all the current manuscripts and to publish a critical edition of the Quran and list all the textual variances. I know this goes beyond the rasm but I wonder if people like Marjin van Putten can substantiate what they claim.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3547 - August 28, 2018, 02:40 PM

    Yes. They can.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3548 - August 28, 2018, 03:13 PM

    Yes. They can.

    really Mahgraye??.....   did he publish that anywhere ??  did you go through the link under his picture which gives complete list of his work...

    let me put a question in a different way to you guys w.r.t those Old Manuscripts of Quran vs present book

    how much % of of present Quran can we see in those old manuscripts?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3549 - August 28, 2018, 03:44 PM

    Gnosis is about knowledge. What you describe as gnosis is Marcionism, a sub-branch of Gnosis but certainly not the definition of Gnosis.


    I'm afraid Marc you're wrong. If "Gnosis" means "knowledge", it exceeds this simple meaning : "knowledge" of what? Of nothing. The gnostic doctrine is perfectly known and it is based on few doctrines whose the one I've talked which is the fundamental doctrine of Gnose (which from this basic is declined in other doctrines according to the different groups, but the basic is this one) : the Biblical God is evil the "real" God is not him. Its seems clear that you should follow the Gnostic topic of academia.

    Quote
    The Quran doesn't explain the Shia 12 Imams dogma for example. At the same time, Shia complain that Ali's Quran was much bigger than today's Quran. Also, you wanna make a link between Quran and Muhammad ; I think it is a mistake as that link is artificial (the Quran isn't about Muhammad)


    1/ the Shia 12 Imams dogma is gnostic? You're serious?  please Marc>>> academia.
    2/ What it is gnostic in the Shii belief today?Nothing. Ali's Quran was much bigger than today's Quran, it is gnostic?  Please please Marc>>> academia.
    3/ I want make nothing. I do not know of what you're talking about.

    Quote
    No, the Quran uses hanif to say that Abraham is neither a Jew nor a Christian. But you are aware of the debate over the real meaning of this word, and its potential derogatory meaning in christianism towards arabs.


    1/ None Christian has said that Abraham was Christian. Even the authors of the Quran knows that is is false.But the Jews said that they comes from Abraham and all knows that it is true.

    Quote
    I don't understand your point here.

    Where Ali has find the name "Muhammad" for his son?  Where? He has invented it?

    Quote
    I don't think that is the real issue. My current thought is that the Mahdi was the Muhammad and this was a thinking that was prevalent when the Bishapur coin was minted. Raymond Dequin doesn't state Muhammad ibn al Haniffiya was a real figure neither, nor that his title had to include both "Muhammad" and "Haniffiya" together.


    1/ It is. You cannot back up with any source what you say. It has for me then, no scholarship value.
    2/ Nobody in the external source knows a "Mahdi" in the 7th c. No bo dy. Your thought has for me then, no scholarship value.

    Quote
    The non muslim sources didn't know Ali himself apart from late sources corrupted by muslim sources.  


    It is inexact. That is the problem Marc, you're supposed to know things that in fact you do not know. Therefore you're wrong and says inexact things.
                                                            
    Quote
    We don't know the agenda of the 9th century sources here. Why did they have to create a guy matching the prophet of islam ? If it was only to validate the claims of the Sunnis vs the Shias, they didn't need to go through all this.


    Who say they "created" it?  Where I say that? Nowhere. It is perfectly possible that this guy was real! An Ali's son turning to Ummayyad is possible. Why not? But I know nothing.
    But that this guy was the "rasul Allah" of the Quran, seems to me very dubious.  That he matches the "prophet" is the narrative of the 9th c. Sunni sources for one sole reason, this guy has turned to the Ummayyad  whereas he should have been with the Shii. To show to the Shii that even a son of Ali (the Shii founder) sided with the Umayyad.  One of the (multiple)  agenda of the 9th c . Sunni sources in telling this story is the struggle against those who say : you're not legitimate. Who say that to who? Shii to Abbassids. That is to me logical.



    Quote
    The Mandeans were called Sabeans in Irak and Sabeans are in the Quran. As you have read AJ Deus, you know that he thought Muawiya was a Sabean because he settled his head-quarters in Damascus.


    The Mandeans lied about themselves to the Muslims. They have framed them about what was their true doctrine during 1400 years. I'm not really sure that the Sabeans of the Quran are the Mandeans... If I read AJ Deus, it does not mean that I'm convinced by what he says.

    Quote
    Don't be sorry. Like I said, there are interesting stuff in it for me. It doesn't mean he is right on everything but I think he raises some valid points still. Islam is a patchwork of beliefs and, once again, that goes beyond the Quran alone.


    Yes, for you. Therefore you can imagine what please you. But for me it is not scholarship. He shows that what recount of this guy 9th c. Sunni sources match some episodes of the sira. That is all. He does not take into account what is the political stuff  and why it is important to Sunni to say that they have on their side one son of Ali, described like the "prophet".
    I'm sorry but I cannot see anything relating of the origin of the Quran in all of this 9th c. stuff.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3550 - August 28, 2018, 03:57 PM

    About the real meaning of hanif:

    Bonnet-Emyard has a reading for it!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3551 - August 28, 2018, 03:57 PM

    (he seems to have proved that the Abassids were related to the Umayyads, a strange thing because it remains to be proved that you had Umayyads as a true family and not an islamic fantasy, he says that some of Abu Muslim events were back projected to Muhammad).


    The Abassid leading chiefs come from Syria.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3552 - August 28, 2018, 04:11 PM

    This is interesting side story of this chit-chat  w.r.t Shia Islam..

    let me put this debate separate  from the umpteen subjects of early  Islam that this folder has...
    Quote
    The reason Raymond Dequin came up on my radar relates to my questionning on Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya and his relationship to the Muhammad starting to appear on coins as of 685.  ......
    Whether one agree or not with his toughts, I think it is an interesting article and it provides new ways of looking at early islam and the Sunni/Shia separation.



    .....Soap opera internal Arabs struggle affair based on the 9th c. Muslims sources. I've already state that Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥanafīya would be a son of Ali, one of the leader in the East defeated by Muawiya from the West. If it is true, from where Ali has named his son? Shakespeare?.................


    .....................I don't understand your point here. .................

    I don't think that is the real issue.

    ...........Where Ali has find the name "Muhammad" for his son?  Where? He has invented it?..........



    let us put all that  discussion about that alleged son of Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib  Mr. Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya.. and it is all from the story of  Raymond Dequin

    Hello Marc S?   you asked me the question "How many Muhammad's are there in Islam .,  and you are giving answers to that question., So you knew the answer  Cheesy .

    So who is this guy  Mr. Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya.??  what happened  to those two kids? The Prophet Muhammad grand sons ?  the sons of Fatima ??  

    So  how many wives and how many kids does our Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib had  with the name "Muhammad" ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3553 - August 28, 2018, 04:25 PM

    I mention that I do not "believe" (at all) that Ali was the son-in-law of a "prophet" and being born in Mecca/Zem Zem/Kaba. He was an Iraqi war lord who has emerged during the 650. Moreover, I do not know why Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya was not killed by the Umayyad like the other sons of Ali...
    Reflection :
    Simply because as Ali have invented that his late wife was the daughter of a/the "prophet"       (Q 33,40 "the prophet is not the father of any of you men" allows therefore that he had a girl!) and his partisans (and his Umayyad opponents) "believed" him that is why the two sons were killed whereas Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya was not. It was not a menace for the Umayyad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3554 - August 28, 2018, 04:34 PM

    I mention that I do not "believe" (at all) that Ali was the son-in-law of a "prophet" and being born in Mecca/Zem Zem/Kaba. He was an Iraqi war lord who has emerged during the 650.

    That is a great heading to pen a Islamic history book  "WARLORDS OF EARLY ISLAM" adding the information from the  day   Prophet Muhammad of classical Islam died in the alleged year 632 to 16th century..

    Quote


    well it is worth scanning...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3555 - August 28, 2018, 04:40 PM

    ........Ali /Mecca/Zem Zem/Kaba/Muhammad. .................

    dear Altara and other friends., looking at this tribal picture of Arabia of that time



     I wonder whether you guys have any information on   tribes of Middle East that had "Ibn"  in their names ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3556 - August 28, 2018, 04:43 PM

    Yes even Muawiya has not "Ibn" in his inscription ; it appears after Islam ( I think to be check, I've not the time to do it...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3557 - August 28, 2018, 04:53 PM

    ......................
    Simply because as Ali have invented that his late wife was the daughter of a/the "prophet"       (Q 33,40 "the prophet is not the father of any of you men" allows therefore that he had a girl!) and his partisans (and his Umayyad opponents) "believed" him that is why the two sons were killed whereas Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya was not. It was not a menace for the Umayyad.



    I HATE THAT FUCKING SURAH  In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful...............  it ruined so many families lives ..  scoundrel's added lots of junk to sonnets of simple preacher who questioned OT & NT stories  


    Quote
    1. O Prophet! Fear God, and do not obey the unbelievers and the hypocrites. God is Knowledgeable and Wise.

    2. And follow what is revealed to you from your Lord. God is fully aware of what you do.

    3. And put your trust in God. God is enough as a trustee.

    4. God did not place two hearts inside any man's body. Nor did He make your wives whom you equate with your mothers, your actual mothers. Nor did He make your adopted sons, your actual sons. These are your words coming out of your mouths. God speaks the truth, and guides to the path.

    5. Call them after their fathers; that is more equitable with God. But if you do not know their fathers, then your brethren in faith and your friends. There is no blame on you if you err therein, barring what your hearts premeditates. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

    6. The Prophet is more caring of the believers than they are of themselves, and his wives are mothers to them. And blood-relatives are closer to one another in God’s Book than the believers or the emigrants, though you should do good to your friends. That is inscribed in the Book.

    7. Recall that We received a pledge from the prophets, and from you, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus son of Mary. We received from them a solemn pledge.

    8. That He may ask the sincere about their sincerity. He has prepared for the disbelievers a painful punishment.

    9. O you who believe! Remember God’s blessings upon you, when forces came against you, and We sent against them a wind, and forces you did not see. God is Observant of what you do.

    10. When they came upon you, from above you, and from beneath you; and the eyes became dazed, and the hearts reached the throats, and you harbored doubts about God.

    11. There and then the believers were tested, and were shaken most severely.

    12. When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is sickness said, “God and His Messenger promised us nothing but illusion.”

    13. And when a group of them said, “O people of Yathrib, you cannot make a stand, so retreat.” And a faction of them asked the Prophet to excuse them, saying, “Our homes are exposed,” although they were not exposed. They only wanted to flee.

    14. Had it been invaded from its sides, and they were asked to dissent, they would have done so with little hesitation.

    15. Although they had made a pledge to God, in the past, that they will not turn their backs. A pledge to God is a responsibility.

    16. Say, “Flight will not benefit you, if you flee from death or killing, even then you will be given only brief enjoyment.”

    17. Say, “Who is it who will shield you from God, if He intends adversity for you, or intends mercy for you?” Besides God, they will find for themselves neither friend nor helper.

    18. God already knows the hinderers among you, and those who say to their brethren, “Come and join us.” Rarely do they mobilize for battle.

    19. Being stingy towards you. And when fear approaches, you see them staring at you—their eyes rolling—like someone fainting at death. Then, when panic is over, they whip you with sharp tongues. They resent you any good. These have never believed, so God has nullified their works; a matter easy for God.

    20. They assumed that the confederates had not withdrawn. But were the confederates to advance, they would wish they were in the desert with the Bedouins, inquiring about your news. And if they were among you, they would have done little fighting.

    21. You have an excellent example in the Messenger of God; for anyone who seeks God and the Last Day, and remembers God frequently.

    22. And when the believers saw the confederates, they said, “This is what God and His messenger have promised us; and God and His messenger have told the truth.” And it only increased them in faith and submission.

    23. Of the believers are men who are true to what they pledged to God. Some of them have fulfilled their vows; and some are still waiting, and never wavering.

    24. That God may reward the truthful for their truthfulness; and punish the hypocrites, if He wills, or pardon them. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

    25. God repelled the disbelievers in their rage; they gained no advantage. God thus spared the believers combat. God is Strong and Mighty.

    26. And He brought down from their strongholds those of the People of the Book who backed them, and He threw terror into their hearts. Some of them you killed, and others you took captive.

    27. And He made you inherit their land, and their homes, and their possessions, and a region you have never stepped on. God has power over all things.

    28. O Prophet! Say to your wives, “If you desire the life of this world and its finery, then let me compensate you, and release you kindly.

    29. But if you desire God, His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, then God has prepared for the righteous among you a magnificent compensation.”

    30. O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits a proven indecency, the punishment for her will be doubled. And that would be easy for God.

    31. But whoever of you remains obedient to God and His Messenger, and acts righteously, We will give her a double reward; and We have prepared for her a generous provision.

    32. O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women, if you observe piety. So do not speak too softly, lest the sick at heart lusts after you, but speak in an appropriate manner.

    33. And settle in your homes; and do not display yourselves, as in the former days of ignorance. And perform the prayer, and give regular charity, and obey God and His Messenger. God desires to remove all impurity from you, O People of the Household, and to purify you thoroughly.


    34. And remember what is recited in your homes of God's revelations and wisdom. God is Kind and Informed.

    35. Muslim men and Muslim women, believing men and believing women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men and truthful women, patient men and patient women, humble men and humble women, charitable men and charitable women, fasting men and fasting women, men who guard their chastity and women who guard, men who remember God frequently and women who remember—God has prepared for them a pardon, and an immense reward.

    36. It is not for any believer, man or woman, when God and His Messenger have decided a matter, to have liberty of choice in their decision. Whoever disobeys God and His Messenger has gone far astray.

    37. When you said to him whom God had blessed, and you had favored, “Keep your wife to yourself, and fear God.” But you hid within yourself what God was to reveal. And you feared the people, but it was God you were supposed to fear. Then, when Zaid ended his relationship with her, We gave her to you in marriage, that there may be no restriction for believers regarding the wives of their adopted sons, when their relationship has ended. The command of God was fulfilled.

    38. There is no blame on the Prophet regarding what God has ordained for him. Such is the pattern of God among those who passed before. The command of God is an absolute decree.


    39. Those who deliver the messages of God, and fear Him, and never fear anyone except God. God is sufficient as a reckoner.

    40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men; but he is the Messenger of God, and the seal of the prophets. God is Cognizant of everything.

    41. O you who believe, remember God with frequent remembrance.

    42. And glorify Him morning and evening.

    43. It is He who reaches out to you, and His angels, to bring you out of darkness into the light. And He is Ever-Merciful towards the believers.

    44. Their greeting on the Day they meet Him is, “Peace,” and He has prepared for them a generous reward.

    45. O prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a bearer of good news, and a warner.

    46. And a caller towards God by His leave, and an illuminating beacon.

    47. And give the believers the good news that for them is a great reward.

    48. And do not obey the blasphemers and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and rely on God. God is a sufficient protector.

    49. O you who believe! When you marry believing women, but then divorce them before you have touched them, there is no waiting period for you to observe in respect to them; but compensate them, and release them in a graceful manner.

    50. O Prophet! We have permitted to you your wives to whom you have given their dowries, and those you already have, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your paternal uncle, and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncle, and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you, and a believing woman who has offered herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desires to marry her, exclusively for you, and not for the believers. We know what We have ordained for them regarding their wives and those their right-hands possess. This is to spare you any difficulty. God is Forgiving and Merciful.


    51. You may defer any of them you wish, and receive any of them you wish. Should you desire any of those you had deferred, there is no blame on you. This is more proper, so that they will be comforted, and not be grieved, and be content with what you have given each one of them. God knows what is within your hearts. God is Omniscient and Clement.

    52. Beyond that, no other women are permissible for you, nor can you exchange them for other wives, even if you admire their beauty, except those you already have. God is Watchful over all things.

    53. O you who believe! Do not enter the homes of the Prophet, unless you are given permission to come for a meal; and do not wait for its preparation. And when you are invited, go in. And when you have eaten, disperse, without lingering for conversation. This irritates the Prophet, and he shies away from you, but God does not shy away from the truth. And when you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen; that is purer for your hearts and their hearts. You must never offend the Messenger of God, nor must you ever marry his wives after him, for that would be an enormity with God.

    54. Whether you declare a thing, or hide it, God is Aware of all things.

    55. There is no blame on them concerning their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their female servants. But they should remain conscious of God. God is Witness over all things.


    56. God and His angels give blessings to the Prophet. O you who believe, call for blessings on him, and greet him with a prayer of peace.

    57. Those who insult God and His Messenger, God has cursed them in this life and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a demeaning punishment.

    58. Those who harm believing men and believing women, for acts they did not commit, bear the burden of perjury and a flagrant sin.

    59. O Prophet! Tell your wives, and your daughters, and the women of the believers, to lengthen their garments. That is more proper, so they will be recognized and not harassed. God is Forgiving and Merciful.


    60. If the hypocrites, and those with sickness in their hearts, and the rumormongers in the City, do not desist, We will incite you against them; then they will not be your neighbors there except for a short while.

    61. They are cursed; wherever they are found, they should be captured and killed outright.

    62. Such has been God’s precedent with those who passed away before. You will find no change in God’s system.

    63. The people ask you about the Hour. Say, “The knowledge thereof rests with God. But what do you know? Perhaps the hour is near.”

    64. God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a Blaze.

    65. Dwelling therein forever, not finding a protector or a savior.

    66. The Day when their faces are flipped into the Fire, they will say, “If only we had obeyed God and obeyed the Messenger.”

    67. And they will say, “Lord, we have obeyed our superiors and our dignitaries, but they led us away from the way.

    68. Lord, give them double the punishment, and curse them with a great curse.”

    69. O you who believe! Do not be like those who abused Moses; but God cleared him of what they said. He was distinguished with God.

    70. O you who believe! Be conscious of God, and speak in a straightforward manner.

    71. He will rectify your conduct for you, and will forgive you your sins. Whoever obeys God and His Messenger has won a great victory.

    72. We offered the Trust to the heavens, and the earth, and the mountains; but they refused to bear it, and were apprehensive of it; but the human being accepted it. He was unfair and ignorant.

    73. God will punish the hypocrites, men and women, and the idolaters, men and women. And God will redeem the believers, men and women. God is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


    TOO MUCH BULLSHIT in it...  fools preach nonsense in the name of allah/god...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3558 - August 28, 2018, 08:18 PM

    Yeezevee - Over 90 %.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3559 - August 28, 2018, 08:36 PM

    let me put a question in a different way to you guys w.r.t those Old Manuscripts of Quran vs present book

    how much % of of present Quran can we see in those old manuscripts?


    Yeezevee - Over 90 %.

    thank you Mahgraye ...

    I would appreciate any links on that

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3560 - August 28, 2018, 08:56 PM

    Dear Yeezevee, as per your request:

    Although no complete (i.e. codex) Koran dates, at least with any certainty, earlier than 3rd/9th century (AH 300), to claim based on this that the entire (or most of it) Koran did not exist in the seventh century, is a non-sequitur, for the reasons given below.

    In 2001, the late S. Noja Noseda, professor of Arabic Language and Literature at the Università Cattolica in Milan, alongside François Déroche, a specialist of Arab manuscripts at the National Library of France, analyzed the contents of all hijazid manuscripts securely dated to the seventh century. By comparing the extant manuscripts to the King Fuʾād edition, they concluded that 83 % of the Koran is represented in those manuscripts. Note, however, that Noseda & Déroche did not include in their analysis Koran materials written on papyri, inscriptions, nor the famous Sanaa palimpsest (Sanaa, Inv. 01-27.1). Taking this into account, and considering a more recent analysis by islamic-awareness.org, the number given by Noseda & Déroche must be higher, somewhere around 90 %.

    Most recently, this conclusion is bolstered by the German expert Nicolai Sinai, professor of Islamic Studies and Fellow of Pembroke College, and currently a researcher at the Corpus Coranicum project, which he co-founded alongside Angelika Neuwirth and Michael Marx. In his latest book, published in 2017, Sinai looked at the earliest manuscript evidence and concluded that: “[A] very considerable portion of the Qurʾānic text was around, albeit not without variants, by the 650s.”  

    Going back to the Sanaa palimpsest, the late Patricia Crone, who was known for her “revisionist” theories due to her earlier work, wrote that the manuscript derived from a complete Koran, an observation accepted by all textual critics as Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, Elizabeth Puin, Behnam Sadeghi, Mohsen Goudarzi, Uwe Bergmann, Asma Hilali, to name but a few. Based on the radiocarbon dating, Crone concluded:


    Quote
    There was a complete Qurʾān by the second half of the seventh century. It was not identical with the one we have today in every detail, but the variants do not change the fact that it is the same book. There is also the question of whether it included all the suras now in it, more specifically whether it included sūrat al-baqara or left it as a separate book. But for all that, we have a hard fact: the Qurʾān existed by the time when the tradition says it existed. There is no longer any good reason to doubt that ʿUthmān set up a commission that produced a Qurʾān.



    Notice how Crone goes further than Sinai, in that she asserts that there was complete Koran by the 650s, which indeed is very significant, especially coming from a leading scholar who was by no means conservative in her thinking.

    As to the remaining 1 %, consult the study made by islamic-awareness.org.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3561 - August 28, 2018, 09:45 PM

    the Biblical God is evil the "real" God is not him. Its seems clear that you should follow the Gnostic topic of academia.


    You mistake Gnosis and Gnosticism.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnose

    Quote
    1/ the Shia 12 Imams dogma is gnostic? You're serious?  please Marc>>> academia.


    You miss the point. You asked if Gnosticism is taught in the Quran. I wanted to highlight one Shia belief that you cannot find in the Quran so you cannot use this argument "The Quran doesn't teach it". And yes the Shia 12 imams dogma does include some Gnosis (not Gnosticism). 

    Quote
    2/ What it is gnostic in the Shii belief today?Nothing. Ali's Quran was much bigger than today's Quran, it is gnostic? 


    You again miss the point. Shia tradition highlight the fact the Quran was much bigger than today's Quran so that might explain why some current islamic practices are not in it and therefore the argument "this teaching is not in the Quran" is invalid.


    Quote
    1/ None Christian has said that Abraham was Christian. Even the authors of the Quran knows that is is false.But the Jews said that they comes from Abraham and all knows that it is true.


    You miss the point the author of this verse wants to raise. I suggest you look into the works done on the word Hanif.

    https://books.google.fr/books?id=YEDlv8aouHUC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=meaning+of+hanifiyya&source=bl&ots=8wttBFfzvt&sig=X5t7YHrjT9sldpIUUiqQbatSapA&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN2aLh25DdAhVozoUKHU20CGQQ6AEwBHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=meaning%20of%20hanifiyya&f=false

    Quote
    Where Ali has find the name "Muhammad" for his son?  Where? He has invented it?

    From the people who wrote the islamic story.



    Quote
    2/ Nobody in the external source knows a "Mahdi" in the 7th c. No bo dy. Your thought has for me then, no scholarship value.

    Let me think that the jury's still out on this one.

                                                             
    Quote
    But that this guy was the "rasul Allah" of the Quran, seems to me very dubious. 

    The real issue is more who was the Muhammad on the Bishapur coin in 684. I never said that he might be the Muhammad from the islamic tradition because that Muhammad was not the Mahdi.

    Quote
    To show to the Shii that even a son of Ali (the Shii founder) sided with the Umayyad.  One of the (multiple)  agenda of the 9th c . Sunni sources in telling this story is the struggle against those who say : you're not legitimate. Who say that to who? Shii to Abbassids. That is to me logical.


    Problem is the Abassids, who slaughtered the Umayyads, wrote the islamic story so Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya pledging alliance to the Umayyads doesn't help the Abassids agenda, who anyway didn't give a damn as their murdering of Abu Muslim showed. 



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3562 - August 28, 2018, 09:57 PM


    Hello Marc S?   you asked me the question "How many Muhammad's are there in Islam .,  and you are giving answers to that question., So you knew the answer  Cheesy .


    Well you mentionned multiple Muhammads so what is important is what you had in mind, not what I thought.

    Quote
    So who is this guy  Mr. Muhammad Ibn al Haniffiya.??  what happened  to those two kids? The Prophet Muhammad grand sons ?  the sons of Fatima ??  


    Hussein was alledgedly martyred in Kerbala and Hassan pledged alliance to Muawiya, retired but supposedly died from poison by his wife at the request of Muawiya.

    Quote
    So  how many wives and how many kids does our Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib had  with the name "Muhammad" ?


    Well ZERO wife with the name Muhammad   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy and no idea for the boys apart from ibn al Hanifiyya who wore the kunya of the prophet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3563 - August 28, 2018, 10:07 PM

    Dear Maghraye, nothing to what you just said back up your earlier comment that the rasm is identical on Quranic manuscripts.

    Quote
    Sinai looked at the earliest manuscript evidence and concluded that: “[A] very considerable portion of the Qurʾānic text was around, albeit not without variants, by the 650s.” 


    This means : earliest manuscripts don't have all current Quranic suras and verses and, for the ones that they do have them, variants exist with today's text.

    Quote
    It was not identical with the one we have today in every detail, but the variants do not change the fact that it is the same book. There is also the question of whether it included all the suras now in it, more specifically whether it included sūrat al-baqara or left it as a separate book


    This means : There was a book but not identical to the one existing today as it had variants to the text and, on top of that, there was the issue if  sūrat al-baqara was included. There is nothing here that backs up an identical rasm on earlier manuscripts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3564 - August 28, 2018, 10:23 PM

    My comment was an answer to Yeezevee and discussed how much of today's Quran's contents is represented in our hijazid manuscripts, and not about the rasm. Of course there are variants! But what is the nature of these variants? The vast majority are are orthographic differences (how you spell a word and most are due to the absence of the medial alif) and scribal errors. Not a single scholar denies this. But the rudimentary consonantal skeleton (i.e. the basic drawing) is more or less the same. Take Ibn Mujāhid's book about the variant readings as an example. Remove all the diacritics and you are left with the same consonantal skeleton. These so-called variant readings are for most part - as noted by Goldziher - about vocoilisation (i.e. how you pronounce the same rams). Even the arch sceptic and the grandfather of revisionism - John Wansbrough - conceded this point. If someone like Wansbrough agreed, and there are many more, maybe there is some truth to the claim. Besides, Keith Small - someone you cited - proved this very point in his doctoral dissertation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3565 - August 29, 2018, 05:49 AM

    Does anyone here know what the fig in Q 95 means?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3566 - August 29, 2018, 07:19 AM

    http://bethyeshoua.over-blog.com/pages/Les_3_arbres_prophetiques_lolivier_le_figuier_la_vigne-1650841.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3567 - August 29, 2018, 07:55 AM

    Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3568 - August 29, 2018, 12:32 PM

    Marc S..............  MarcUS .....makes three statements   and ALL OF THEM ARE QUESTIONABLE ASSUMTIONS
    1). Well you mentionned multiple Muhammads so what is important is what you had in mind, not what I thought.

    2). Hussein was alledgedly martyred in Kerbala and Hassan pledged alliance to Muawiya, retired but supposedly died from poison by his wife at the request of Muawiya.

    3). Well ZERO wife with the name Muhammad   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy and no idea for the boys apart from ibn al Hanifiyya who wore the kunya of the prophet.


    limited time ... Let me just deal with his laughing at me saying

    Quote
    yeezevee to MarcUS :  So  how many wives and how many kids does our Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib had  with the name "Muhammad" ?

    and MarcUS  says :   3). Well ZERO wife with the name Muhammad   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy and no idea for the boys apart from ibn al Hanifiyya who wore the kunya of the prophet.


    YOUR LAUGHING WRONG .. your ZERO wrong....YOUR ANSWERS WRONG AND YOUR USE OF THAT WORD "kunya " is worng   dear Mark S   ..  everything is wrong with you ... Cheesy 

    here you go..

    ******************************************************************************************************
    Sayings Fatima bint Muhammad









    ***********************************************************************************************************

    Do you need   more of such sayings from her Mark S?? do you know who she..........The Fatima bint Muhammad..........was dear MarkUS??


    Now same question to you again...

    .So  how many wives and how many kids does our Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Talib had  with the name "Muhammad" ?

    Answer me dear Mark S   Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3569 - August 29, 2018, 01:01 PM


     
    Good Question and good answer  and .....Marc S  read his bible..... BUT HE DID NOT READ HIS QURAN ...lol...

    Well I love to read Quran and specially such  Surah.. they are wonderful words .. nice little sonnet    So let me read Quran surah-95 At-Tin ..

    Quote
    1   By the fig, and the olive.   
     
    2   By Mount Sinai.   
     
    3   By this city of security (Makkah).   
     
    4   Verily, We created man in the best stature (mould).   
     
    5   Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low.   
     
    6   Save those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous deeds. Then they shall have a reward without end (Paradise).   
     
    7   Then what (or who) causes you (O disbelievers) to deny the Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)?   
     
    8   Is not Allah the Best of judges?


    IDIOTS ..............  Quran writers  made a mess of that wonderful Surah adding some silly stuff in it..  you fools read it  like this

    Quote
    By the figs and the olives
     And by Mount Sinai.   
    This city made secure  
    Verily.. We  indeed created man in the best of moulds
    Then We render him the lowest of the low.   
    Ohyee... save those who believe and do righteous deeds.
     They shall have a reward without end
     Then what  causes you to deny the judgement day?
     Is not Allah the Best of all judges?


    that is good.. that sounds better  and i feel better

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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