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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1499864 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3600 - August 30, 2018, 08:08 AM

    No dear Yeezevee. You are right. I will try to find tge relevant sources.

    Concerning Azami, I will double check.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3601 - August 30, 2018, 09:23 AM

    Could Altara and Marc S please tell what the hijrah was in your opinion in a few words. Write just the event. Important.


    We know some of the arabs conquerors called themselves muhajirun (emigrants). We know that they moved from somewhere to conquer Palestine, Sham and Egypt. Therefore, the only attested hijra is this one.

    Islamic tradition mention 2 hijra, the one from Mecca to Medina that we know never happened but also one from Mecca to Etchiopia. That one event is quite strange and we can think it is a litterary invention but I personnaly believe it holds some kind of historical truth. However, it might not be obviously for the reasons nor the dates as per the islamic tradition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3602 - August 30, 2018, 08:31 PM

    Quote
    We know some of the arabs conquerors called themselves muhajirun


    I would say the meaning of muhajirun is not really sure...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3603 - August 30, 2018, 08:46 PM



    Hellooo  ...  Altara....mundi... Zaotar...... zeca  and Mark S   How are you guys  doing? glad to read all of you  in this forum...

    I wonder whether you guys read/compared those Old Quranic Manuscripts (7th 9th century??)  with the modern book ? 

    and I appreciate  the answer from any one of you guys  to that question dear friends.  and I would greatly appreciate if one of guys who are expert in French  could translate bit of this along with nuggets in it

    http://blog.sami-aldeeb.com/2014/05/21/lislamisme-raconte-a-ma-fille-de-hamid-zanaz-aux-editions-tatamis/

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Sami Aldib has produced an interesting chronological order Quran (in Arabic) where you can see the Quranic rasm in "Kufic" script on the left   Utmanic on the right and Utmanic with few things added in the middle. But I do not remember where I got it... On his site but where... You can contact him I think. Good luck !
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3604 - August 30, 2018, 08:48 PM

    I am referring to the actual hijrah. Thr year of the Arabs.


    ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3605 - August 30, 2018, 09:02 PM

    Sami Aldib has produced an interesting chronological order Quran (in Arabic) where you can see the Quranic rasm in "Kufic" script on the left   Utmanic on the right and Utmanic with few things added in the middle. But I do not remember where I got it... On his site but where... You can contact him I think. Good luck !

    well I have no background of that beautiful language ..........French............

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Men9t4ZuZ1w

    Sami Aldeeb: The Koran New English translation in chronological order



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Aldeeb

    https://blog.sami-aldeeb.com/2013/12/04/on-the-difficulty-of-reading-the-quran-part-a-and-part-b/

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3606 - August 30, 2018, 09:08 PM

    Is Sami Aldeeb a serious scholar?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3607 - August 30, 2018, 09:18 PM

    well I have no background of that beautiful language ..........French............


    He also pretend the Quran is full of grammatical mistakes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3608 - August 30, 2018, 09:18 PM



    I guess our main difference is here because you see all acts of islamic faith coming from the Quran while I think it is not the case. This then prevents you from looking elsewhere.


    1/ I see the Islamic faith coming from the Quran, yes .  About the different practices I see them coming from the understanding of the Quran each group have, yes. Groups who can have been influenced of course by other faith whereas others were not. But the Quran is the base. As human are different, I see that it is logical, rational, coherent.
    2/I think that you're wrong. Nothings prevents me to look elsewhere. Practices, rituals, have been surely influenced by others. But I think this topic is a dead end to find the authors of the Quran.

    Quote
    The author of this verse doesn't claim Abraham was a christian.


    Quote
    The author of this verse doesn't claim Abraham was a christian. It just states that Jews and Christians have gone down the wrong path in their religious beliefs and cannot claim to be the rightful heirs/children of Abraham.  Only those who remained faithful to that heritage can claim it, and obviously the author of this verse thinks he belongs to those who can claim that heritage.


    The author say things that induces the idea that Christians says more or less that Abraham was Christian. The issue is that Christian have never say that. This inducing from the text is therefore false.
    Same thing with the Jews : Jews considers Abraham as their father. It is true. Not really a Jew but if the sons are Jews  it is tempting  to identify him as a Jew.
    And the Quran plays on ambiguity, as usual (Hahaha!)
    Quote
    I will, thanks.

    Borrut is very interesting about this stuff (he is an historian) especially when he does not understand things : he notes the paradoxes and he is totally blocked by his belief in the Muslim narrative. That is why he can't figure out.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3609 - August 30, 2018, 09:22 PM

    Is Sami Aldeeb a serious scholar?


    He is not a "scholar" he is dealing with the language of the text (as he is Arab). Guillaume Dye has recently said one very interesting thing : Quranic Arabic is the mother tongue of nobody. It can be dangerous then to Arabic speakers to  believe as they are Arabic speakers to think that they understand it.  Afro He's perfectly right on this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3610 - August 30, 2018, 09:36 PM

    1/ I see the Islamic faith coming from the Quran, yes .  About the different practices I see them coming from the understanding of the Quran each group have, yes.



    Which faith do you think Amr ibn al As had ? Christian ?  Jew? Quranic? Pagan ? Something else ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3611 - August 30, 2018, 10:24 PM

    I would say the meaning of muhajirun is not really sure...


    Even to those who called themselves like this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3612 - August 30, 2018, 10:45 PM

    Which faith do you think Amr ibn al As had ? Christian ?  Jew? Quranic? Pagan ? Something else ?


    It seems that you have said something to which I agree that Amr ibn al As could be in fact "Umar". I think that it was (for  Amr ibn al As) the same situation as the others Umayyad  of his time that we see in the buildings they've built : Hellenistic leaders, dyed by the Quranic texts which were circulating, but not at all "Muslims" as we know it (at all),  but conscious that they were different from  Christians/Jews

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3613 - August 31, 2018, 01:06 AM

    Altara - I know he is not a scholar. But if I understood you correctly, is the implication of your comment that Aldeeb is wrong about the Quran having so many grammatical mistakes?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3614 - August 31, 2018, 01:18 AM

    Q 3:67 is an anti-Jewish polemic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3615 - August 31, 2018, 05:44 AM

    Altara - I know he is not a scholar. But if I understood you correctly, is the implication of your comment that Aldeeb is wrong about the Quran having so many grammatical mistakes?


    Nope he is not wrong.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3616 - August 31, 2018, 11:31 AM

    It seems that you have said something to which I agree that Amr ibn al As could be in fact "Umar". I think that it was (for  Amr ibn al As) the same situation as the others Umayyad  of his time that we see in the buildings they've built : Hellenistic leaders, dyed by the Quranic texts which were circulating, but not at all "Muslims" as we know it (at all),  but conscious that they were different from  Christians/Jews


    Have you read the dialog between the emir Amrou and the patriarch John. There are 2 things that suprise me in this dialog :

    - some people say that the emir never mention the Quran , nor Muhammad, but only the Torah and they are right , and they come to the conclusion that this emir wasn't a muslim,

    - at the same time, the text speaks about the Mahgraye law and I have never seen anyone trying to explain what it meant in a context where there is no mention of the Quran

    https://archive.org/details/ColloqueDuPatriarcheJacobiteJeanAvecAmrIbnAlAs

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3617 - August 31, 2018, 11:32 AM

    Question to everyone : is a mawali necessary a muslim or can he be of another faith ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3618 - August 31, 2018, 12:01 PM

    Pretty sure they became Muslims?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3619 - August 31, 2018, 12:21 PM

    Have you read the dialog between the emir Amrou and the patriarch John. There are 2 things that suprise me in this dialog :

    - some people say that the emir never mention the Quran , nor Muhammad, but only the Torah and they are right , and they come to the conclusion that this emir wasn't a muslim,


    Yes of course. Michael P. Penn has made a paper  about this topic, (2008) : JOHN AND THE EMIR
    A NEW INTRODUCTION, EDITION AND TRANSLATION* I have it, but it is not available on the internet.

    His conclusion : "An analysis of John and the Emir and a comparison of its form  and
    content with other early Christian texts on Islam yields several important conclusions regarding
    the work’s genre, date, and historicity: it is al- most certain that John and the Emir is not
    an entirely accurate representation of an encounter between a Christian and a Muslim ruler,
    rather it is a carefully crafted piece of apologetics;  it is quite probable that the text was
    not originally composed in the 640s but rather was written in the late seventh or in the eighth
    century; and  it is quite possible that a meeting between John Sedra and {Umayr ibn Sa'd never
    actually took place but is rather a later literary construct. In sum, it is extremely unlikely
    that a Miaphysite patriarch and a Muslim commander ever exchanged the very words preserved in
    John and the Emir. To read John and the Emir as if it were a transcript filled with unbiased
    empirical data misconstrues both the text itself and the circumstances under which it was written.
    As with most other disputation texts, John and the Emir does not reflect an attempt at objective
    historiography as much as an act of apologetics, polemics, and meaning-making. This conclusion does
    not lessen the importance of John and the Emir for the study of early Christian/Muslim interactions, but it does highlight the need for particular reading strategies to effectively analyse this document, strategies that
    focus more on questions of ideology and representation than on historical reconstruction."

    2/ For me there is no "Muslim" as we know it  before 700 in Syria.

    Quote
    - at the same time, the text speaks about the Mahgraye law and I have never seen anyone trying to explain what it meant in a context where there is no mention of the Quran


    You're right. But the "Quran" is said to have been "official" in the 650's. But it is clear that nobody venture to explain what is this "Mahgraye law", even Penn does not talk about it.






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3620 - August 31, 2018, 12:27 PM

    Question to everyone : is a mawali necessary a muslim or can he be of another faith ?


    My thought is that in the beginning (just after the "conquest") Christians Arabs might have been mawali.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3621 - September 01, 2018, 01:25 PM

    My thought is that in the beginning (just after the "conquest") Christians Arabs might have been mawali.


    Should I read that as  Christians And Arabs  or
      Christian  Arabs/ Arab Christians dear Altara??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3622 - September 01, 2018, 01:26 PM

    Christian  Arabs
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3623 - September 01, 2018, 01:28 PM

    Christian  Arabs

    thanks

    So what is your opinion on Chronological order of Quran  Surahs  & Ayas   and  the present book order??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3624 - September 01, 2018, 02:36 PM

    Haha! Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3625 - September 01, 2018, 03:41 PM

    Haha! Afro

    common Altara  I am looking for a serious answer on that question from you ..............  lol....  ...............

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3626 - September 01, 2018, 04:40 PM

    Dear yeez, you know that I can tell in this forum only few things. An no more.  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3627 - September 01, 2018, 05:24 PM

    Dear yeez, you know that I can tell in this forum only few things. And  no more.  Afro

    and I too can tell  only few things about me on forums  so  that is true to me also in different way dear Altara?   And  it is per-se  NOT about   books (To be published ) on faith ..

    But  you must agree with me that there should be publications/Books/reviews on that subject of "Meccan Verses/Madinan Verses of so-called Chronological order of Quran  Surahs  & Ayas  W.R.T   the present book order " .. And  on that I  have fairly good idea  on your views and what you are going to say/write  ... Cheesy Cheesy

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3628 - September 01, 2018, 06:28 PM

    the year 622, what happened:

    Quote from M. Gross work (http://religiondocbox.com/Islam/73559772-Early-islam-an-alternative-scenario-of-its-emergence-markus-gross.html#download_tab_content):

    Quote
    Another striking coincidence is this Byzantine Emperor’s devastating victory against the Sassanian Empire. On the brink of utter destruction and to the surprise of his contemporaries, he and his Arab vassals managed to win the decisive battle against the Sassanians in the year 622, the year which marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. Syriac sources talk about the “year of the Arabs (ṭayyāye),” because his Arab vassals gained considerable autonomy after this battle. The Islamic calendar begins with the alleged emigration (hijra) of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina, also in 622.


    Makes a lot of sense reading it this way...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3629 - September 01, 2018, 07:54 PM

    mundi  pastes something  from MarkUS_G  and says   "Makes a lot of sense reading it this way..".
    the year 622, what happened:

    Quote from M. Gross work (http://religiondocbox.com/Islam/73559772-Early-islam-an-alternative-scenario-of-its-emergence-markus-gross.html#download_tab_content):

    Makes a lot of sense reading it this way...

    Hi mundi  did you read all that 23 pages or so of that  article?? As far as this is concerned

    Quote
    Another striking coincidence is this Byzantine Emperor’s devastating victory against the Sassanian Empire. On the brink of utter destruction and to the surprise of his contemporaries, he and his Arab vassals managed to win the decisive battle against the Sassanians in the year 622, the year which marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. Syriac sources talk about the “year of the Arabs (ṭayyāye),” because his Arab vassals gained considerable autonomy after this battle. The Islamic calendar begins with the alleged emigration (hijra) of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina, also in 622.

    what actually does that word Arab vassals means and most importantly WHO WERE THEY?? and and what do they have to do with Quran/hadith and Islam??


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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