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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3630 - September 01, 2018, 08:12 PM

    and I too can tell  only few things about me on forums  so  that is true to me also in different way dear Altara?   And  it is per-se  NOT about   books (To be published ) on faith ..

    But  you must agree with me that there should be publications/Books/reviews on that subject of "Meccan Verses/Madinan Verses of so-called Chronological order of Quran  Surahs  & Ayas  W.R.T   the present book order " .. And  on that I  have fairly good idea  on your views and what you are going to say/write  ... Cheesy Cheesy

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    There is the article of Reynolds (French)  :  “Le problème de la chronologie du Coran,” Arabica 58 (2011), 477-502.
    https://www.academia.edu/24493850/_Le_probl%C3%A8me_de_la_chronologie_du_Coran_Arabica_58_2011_477-502
    https://www.deepl.com/translator is your friend.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3631 - September 01, 2018, 08:15 PM

    Quote
    what actually does that word Arab vassals means and most importantly WHO WERE THEY


    Spot on Yeez, I guess Altara will know but wont tell us?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3632 - September 01, 2018, 08:23 PM

    There is the article of Reynolds (French)  :  “Le problème de la chronologie du Coran,” Arabica 58 (2011), 477-502.
    https://www.academia.edu/24493850/_Le_probl%C3%A8me_de_la_chronologie_du_Coran_Arabica_58_2011_477-502
    https://www.deepl.com/translator is your friend.

    Well I must read from that paper ., what pages from it you think are relevant  for Chronological sequence of alleged revelation ??This one??

    Quote
    The chronology of the Koran and the Muslim tradition

    The chronology of Koranic revelations is central to the Muslim-Muslim tradition. As soon as each sura is introduced, most Arabic editions of the Koran present the title followed by the adjective makkiyya  (mecquoise) or mada-niyya   (Medinese). It must therefore be understood that a good reading of the Koran requires at least a knowledge of the period to which each sura belongs. But the identification of these two periods is found only in the introduction of the text, and never in the text itself. One therefore wonders how the idea of the chronology of the Koran has played such a central role in the Muslim tradition.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator


    Question do you think it was Muslim Intellectuals who made this distinction of Meaccan surahs and Madinan surahs in the first place??  I am under the impression some one   from west said/wrote this   around 1850s....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3633 - September 01, 2018, 08:29 PM

    Spot on Yeez, I guess Altara will know but wont tell us?

    '
    well Altara IS NOT TELLING MANY THINGS., moreover if he tells every secret here .. no one will read his publications/books/reviews .....etc., And if it is also bread and butter/tenure position  issue.,  then Yes he has every right to keep some secrets of early Islamic history  to himself     Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3634 - September 01, 2018, 08:54 PM

    Well I must read from that paper ., what pages from it you think are relevant  for Chronological sequence of alleged revelation ??This one??

    Question do you think it was Muslim Intellectuals who made this distinction of Meaccan surahs and Madinan surahs in the first place??  I am under the impression some one   from west said/wrote this   around 1850s....


    1/You must read all. But be careful! It does not mean that I'm agree with it!!!
    2/ it is the first medieval commentators. Read the article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3635 - September 02, 2018, 09:21 AM

    1/You must read all. But be careful! It does not mean that I'm agree with it!!!
    2/ it is the first medieval commentators. Read the article.


    Quote
    Finally, I propose that only the Qur'an has the authority to impose such an idea on its readers. But thedoes he do it ? The Koran itself does he oblige us to a reading according to periods Mecca  and medina? If not, let us grant to those who study the possibility of imagining other readings of in Qoran !

    well i certainly do not agree with it  and i operate on the principle of  "NOTHING IS UNQUESTIONABLE" and i agree with this

    Quote
    The historical interpretation came to the forefront of psalm study from the time of the Enlightenment, and much modern study has been devoted to determining the date and authorship of individual psalms. Conservative scholars presented arguments for Davidi;s authorship, while liberal ones proposed a wide range of datings, some as late as the second century BCE . . . It is now generally agreed that it is possible to determine the historical origin of very few of the psalms because of the lack of evidence – who, after all, would be able to discover when and by whom a nineteenth-century hymn was written simply from the hymn itself ?

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3636 - September 02, 2018, 01:56 PM

    Quote
    The Koran itself does he oblige us to a reading according to periods Mecca  and medina?

     Nope, the narrative does.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3637 - September 02, 2018, 04:44 PM

    Thanks, Altara. Reynolds article on the chronology of the Quran was truly superb.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3638 - September 02, 2018, 05:41 PM

    Yes it is an interesting important article. Sinai has responded: “Inner-Qurʾānic Chronology" ; unfortunately seems unavailable on the internet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3639 - September 02, 2018, 05:51 PM

    Yeah. Can't seem to find it online either.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3640 - September 02, 2018, 10:11 PM

    Thrilling....

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3641 - September 03, 2018, 08:37 AM

    Thrilling....

    really  Cheesy  so where are we? 

    well wherever we are  Altara  doesn't want to answer questions.. It doesn't matter whether he answers or  not   I WILL STILL BE ASKING....
    Yes it is an interesting important article. Sinai has responded: “Inner-Qurʾānic Chronology" ; unfortunately seems unavailable on the internet.

    So what is that dear  Altara ?  I understand Chronology of alleged revelation which many think is different from the present book..  But now this “Inner-Qurʾānic Chronology" or “outer-Qurʾānic Chronology" .. these buz words needs definition ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3642 - September 03, 2018, 09:07 AM

    So Altara next question  Cheesy  .... and that is from mundi's post on   Markus  Gross publication that you see the  


      that pub says

    Quote
    Another striking coincidence is this Byzantine Emperor’s devastating victory against the Sassanian Empire. On the brink of utter destruction and to the surprise of his contemporaries, he and his Arab vassals managed to win the decisive battle against the Sassanians in the year 622, the year which marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. Syriac sources talk about the “year of the Arabs (ṭayyāye),” because his Arab vassals gained considerable autonomy after this battle. The Islamic calendar begins with the alleged emigration (hijra) of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina, also in 622

    .

    For early Islamic  history  as it sprang up immediately after that Byzantine-Sassanian  war  in the year 622 .. these vessel states of Arabia of that time may give important clues ..

    So I wonder about those Ghassanids of Eastern Arabia......((CLOSE TO PRESENT JORDAN BORDERS)) who were actually a tribe that was following Judo-Christian theology of their own  with their own rituals during that time

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3643 - September 03, 2018, 09:16 AM

    the year 622, what happened:

    Quote from M. Gross work (http://religiondocbox.com/Islam/73559772-Early-islam-an-alternative-scenario-of-its-emergence-markus-gross.html#download_tab_content):

    Makes a lot of sense reading it this way...


    Is the PDF available somewhere? Seems impossible to dl it on this site...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3644 - September 03, 2018, 09:18 AM

    really  Cheesy  so where are we? 

    well wherever we are  Altara  doesn't want to answer questions.. It doesn't matter whether he answers or  not   I WILL STILL BE ASKING....So what is that dear  Altara ?  I understand Chronology of alleged revelation which many think is different from the present book..  But now this “Inner-Qurʾānic Chronology" or “outer-Qurʾānic Chronology" .. these buz words needs definition ..


    It is the same thing as Reynolds : Chronology of alleged revelation (sura-s)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3645 - September 03, 2018, 09:18 AM

    So Altara next question  Cheesy  .... and that is from mundi's post on   Markus  Gross publication that you see the  
      that pub says
    .

    For early Islamic  history  as it sprang up immediately after that Byzantine-Sassanian  war  in the year 622 .. these vessel states of Arabia of that time may give important clues ..

    So I wonder about those Ghassanids of Eastern Arabia......((CLOSE TO PRESENT JORDAN BORDERS)) who were actually a tribe that was following Judo-Christian theology of their own  with their own rituals during that time



    I cannot dl it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3646 - September 03, 2018, 09:21 AM

    So Altara next question  Cheesy  .... and that is from mundi's post on   Markus  Gross publication that you see
    So I wonder about those Ghassanids of Eastern Arabia......((CLOSE TO PRESENT JORDAN BORDERS)) who were actually a tribe that was following Judo-Christian theology of their own  with their own rituals during that time 


     1/Ghassanids of JORDAN/Palestine/West Syria ,Eastern Arabia is the Gulf.
    2/ Nope, they were Christian.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3647 - September 03, 2018, 11:58 AM

    Here is the PDF:

    https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-27418862/documents/58d293f6c44d6yQ0yqp1/20%20Early%20Islam%20An%20Alternative%20Scenario%20of%20its%20Emergence%20-%20Korr%20Markus1.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3648 - September 03, 2018, 12:18 PM


    Hmm

    you are late to the party dear Mahgraye ...  mundi posted that two days back   and Altara doesn't want to talk about it..

    So Mahgraye  did you read that??  tell me the zest of it

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3649 - September 03, 2018, 01:16 PM

    Yes. I have read it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3650 - September 03, 2018, 02:23 PM

    Yes. I have read it.

    that is good.. So  that is only partial answer
    Hmm

    you are late to the party dear Mahgraye ... ..............

    So Mahgraye  did you read that??  tell me the zest of it

    with best
    yeezevee


    So...so what is the zest of it .. and what are the nuggets in it .. tell me..tell me..tellme....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3651 - September 03, 2018, 02:52 PM

    Quote


    well Mahgraye doesn't want to say anything ..  Hmmm my goodness gracious ..  THIS IS HORRIBLE.. Markus Gross wants to start another horror movie

    Quote
    .................If we observe public “debates” in Islamic countries, e.g. about the ethics of a new law, the marrying age of girls, etc., the usual procedure is that passages from the Qurʾān and its commentaries, the ḥadīth literature, and the sīra are adduced to make a point. This would change for the better if the holy book of Islam were no longer the literal word of God, but only – as in Christianity – an inspired book, and if the traditional literature were considered only books to be understood within the historical context in which they were written.

    Whoever wants every inhabitant of the Islamic world to have access to the achievements of a free, democratic and enlightened society has to start with the historical-critical investigation of the Qurʾān and traditional Islamic literature. Notes1See, for example, the prestigious handbook of Arabic philology edited by Helmut Gätje (1987).

    2 The question of the emergence of Classical Arabic, which the society has addressed, will not be discussed. See Markus Gross (2012).

     3 It is communis opinio in the academic world that they are fakes (for pictures see Muhammad’s Letters n.d.).

     4 It is described as “perhaps the earliest purely Greek inscription ... with a hijra date” (Islamic Awareness 2007).

     5 It should also be mentioned that both the Gospel of Matthew and Ibn Isḥāq’s biography of the Prophet begin with genealogies.

    6 See the section on Buddhist elements below.

     7 There are more reasons to doubt the primarily oral transmission (Gross 2013).

     8 This notion, in slightly different wording, appears throughout several chapters of her book. .............................


    Oh well .. Christian haters... finmad finmad finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3652 - September 03, 2018, 03:09 PM

    Markus Gross is one of the founders of the Inârah Institute in Germany. In the following contribution under question, he attempts to present a new perspective of the emergence of Early Islam by summarizing the findings of the members of the Inârah Institute. Although he does take some more conclusive stands, his article is – as I just noted – an overview of old and new research. Some of the findings highlighted in the paper – going by my memory – include:

    Mecca did not exist and is a later literary fiction   

    The Quran is a product of a written transmission and not an oral one

    The genealogy of the Quran cannot be placed in today’s Mecca and Medina but somewhere further to the north

    The Quran was redacted under the Umayyad Abd al-Malik

    Abd al-Malik was not from Mecca but from Marv, hence his name, Abd al-Malik b. Marw-an

    Islam (or the Quran) was composed somewhere around the Silk Road

    The Abbasids are linked to the Umayyad’s

    There were not conquests as recounted by the Arab sources

    The hijrah as recounted by the Arab sources is fictional, and the actual hijrah marked the year the Byzantines vanquished the Sasanians at the hand of their Arab vassals, and hence, the year of the Arabs

    The Quran was not written in Classical Arabic, but in a Aramaic-Arabic mixed-language

    The Quran is a product of multiple authors

    Much of the later narratives are literary fictions based on the Old Testament and all go back to a book by Ibn Abd al-Hakam
     
    The Muslim pilgrimage and its rituals is based on Buddhist practices

    Muhammad did not exist but was a another name for Jesus

    The terms Islam and Muslims did not exist until the third century AH

    Muawiya was a Christian king

    The early Muslims were some kind of Arab Christians

    These are some of the things I remember from the paper. Please read for additional information and any mistaken from my side.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3653 - September 03, 2018, 04:36 PM

    Quote
    This would change for the better if the holy book of Islam were no longer the literal word of God,



    Why not?  1400 years of the building of the Islamic civilization then would be destroyed.

    Maghraye, thanks for the PDF.

    Quote
    Mecca did not exist and is a later literary fiction  

    The Quran is a product of a written transmission and not an oral one

    The genealogy of the Quran cannot be placed in today’s Mecca and Medina but somewhere further to the north

    The Quran was redacted under the Umayyad Abd al-Malik

    Abd al-Malik was not from Mecca but from Marv, hence his name, Abd al-Malik b. Marw-an

    Islam (or the Quran) was composed somewhere around the Silk Road

    The Abbasids are linked to the Umayyad’s

    There were not conquests as recounted by the Arab sources

    The hijrah as recounted by the Arab sources is fictional, and the actual hijrah marked the year the Byzantines vanquished the Sasanians at the hand of their Arab vassals, and hence, the year of the Arabs

    The Quran was not written in Classical Arabic, but in a Aramaic-Arabic mixed-language

    The Quran is a product of multiple authors

    Much of the later narratives are literary fictions based on the Old Testament and all go back to a book by Ibn Abd al-Hakam
     
    The Muslim pilgrimage and its rituals is based on Buddhist practices

    Muhammad did not exist but was a another name for Jesus

    The terms Islam and Muslims did not exist until the third century AH

    Muawiya was a Christian king

    The early Muslims were some kind of Arab Christians

    These are some of the things I remember from the paper. Please read for additional information and any mistaken from my side.


    1/Yes
    2/Idem
    3/not necessarily north.
    4/not necessarily
    5/ Possible
    6/Idem
    7/not conquests as recounted : there was war.Not necessarily "conquest".
    8/The hijrah : nope.
    9/The Quran was not written : nobody know what is Quranic Arabic
    10/The Quran is a product of multiple authors : yes
    11/Much of the later narratives are literary fictions : taken from the Quran
    12/The Muslim pilgrimage : lulz
    13/Muhammad did not exist but was a another name for Jesus : 1/ yes 2/ muhammad is an adjective qualifying Jesus in the Dome's inscription. Not a proper name.
    14/The terms Islam : yes
    15/Muawiya was a Christian king : nope
    16/The early Muslims were some kind of Arab Christians : nope

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3654 - September 03, 2018, 05:48 PM

    M. Gross article:

    I thought the suggestion of buddhist influence quite interesting. We know Arabs had intensive contacts with the East. The Nabatean cities seem to show this influence. Traders were active in India and China. Why not?

    For the rest I think the article is wonderfully written, very captivating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3655 - September 03, 2018, 05:57 PM

    Quote
    We know Arabs had intensive contacts with the Ethast. The Nabatean cities seem to show this influence. Traders were active in India and China.


    Not the Syro-Palestinians and Iraqi Arabs of the 6 and 7th c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3656 - September 03, 2018, 06:16 PM

    Quote
    Not the Syro-Palestinians and Iraqi Arabs of the 6 and 7th c.


    So which Arabs had the contacts? The Nabateans as a specific subset, and the other Arabs just stayed within the confines of Roman and Sassanian empires?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3657 - September 03, 2018, 06:32 PM

    1/The Nabateans the way you think them (great merchants, etc) do not exist anymore in the 6 and 7th c. They were wiped out (as merchants) by the Romans since the 2nd c.  since they have taken control of Petra in 106.

    https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/jean-pierre-brun/course-2013-2014.htm

    2/ There is no contact at that time ( 6 and 7th c. )
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3658 - September 03, 2018, 06:51 PM

    Archeological excavations show that Aila (Aqaba) was still an active port city in 6 and 7 th C: https://www.archaeological.org/lectures/abstracts/2722

    "Wiped out as merchants by the Romans"?: What do you mean by that? Nabateans/Arabs started cultivating their gardens in the desert and stopped trading?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3659 - September 03, 2018, 07:50 PM

    Quote
    What do you mean by that? Nabateans/Arabs started cultivating their gardens in the desert and stopped trading?

    Yes (sort of).
    They've lost their commerce  monopoly to the Romans.
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